Repeat after me: "I don't live in a police state" (UK)

[alphatarget1]

Isn't Europe having some multiculturalism problems now? Does the fact that a lot of it has to do with Islamic immigrants make you leave that conversation too?

Yes. Look at the race riots in France. The society at large refuse to recognize them as French because they ain't white and they share a different culture. I have seen blatant racism in Germany too.

In time, mentality will change. I simply refuse to believe that Europe is a utopia that is all accepting and infinitely better than America. I think race relations in the US for the most part are not really that bad.

 

[nobodyknows]

Arrest the criminals.

OMG!! Why didn't we think of that!! Just arrest all the criminals, it's so simple it's genius. Arrest them all and throw away the key. Too bad about that guy he stabbed to death though. I mean it's a little laterfor him.

 

[Zorkorist]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Martin Niemöller

-John

 

[FallenHero]

I feel like that question was a last second edit... Maybe not, either way my answer is.

We have the right to walk down the street without having hate speech shouted at us.



When we start getting into the correlation between race and death rates, I'm out.

Address it from a merely socio-economic standpoint then. Poorer areas, regardless of race, tend to have higher rates of violent crime. Or you can just run and hide because the argument went purely academic and you have nothing to back up your belief.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Ahhh...this is what I love about America. Our way is the right way and fuck all the rest.

If Brits are happy that carrying long knives around in public is a crime, then that's up to them to decide. It's all relative anyway isn't it? Try carrying around a concealed handgun in Chicago. Or walking around downtown LA toting an AK47.

Then again most nubs in this thread have probably never even left their home state so whatever. Wasting my time.

 

[Broheim]

can an american please answer me why sexual harrasment laws and defamation laws are ok, but hate speech laws are wrong???

 

[Zebo]

I think you have it backwards. "Hate" speech is just fine in usa.

 

[Zebo]

Yes. Look at the race riots in France. The society at large refuse to recognize them as French because they ain't white and they share a different culture. I have seen blatant racism in Germany too.

In time, mentality will change. I simply refuse to believe that Europe is a utopia that is all accepting and infinitely better than America. I think race relations in the US for the most part are not really that bad.

They will never integrate either.

It's a permanent state of war exists between the people of Islam and infidels. And when they are done with infidels, they go after each other for being not quite Muslim enough.

 

[irishScott]

can an american please answer me why sexual harrasment laws and defamation laws are ok, but hate speech laws are wrong???

Off the top of my head: Sexual harrasment and defamation are explicitly defined. "Hate speech" is ambiguous and can't really be nailed down. In fact, the UK law is quite contradictory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 inserted Part 4A into the Public Order Act 1986. That part prohibits anyone from causing alarm or distress. Part 4A states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offense if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he— (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.[7]

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 amended the Public Order Act 1986 by adding Part 3A. That Part says, "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred." The Part protects freedom of expression by stating in Section 29J:

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

By that logic I'm technically guilty of "hate speech" against Hal9000 in this thread, but at the same time I'm innocent. One paragraph forbids me from insulting him (due to causing him "distress") and the other one allows it. And from what I've seen posted in the OP, the UK police would probably track my IP and imprison me for it if I lived across the pond no?

 

[StinkyPinky]

Nevada is a total police state. If I walk around town with an assault rifle the police will murder me. Fascists. :awe:

 

[Cogman]

can an american please answer me why sexual harrasment laws and defamation laws are ok, but hate speech laws are wrong???

Defamation laws existed in the US before the First amendment came into play. After the first amendment, it has become very hard to sue someone for defamation (the way it should be).

Sexual Harassment laws are pretty well defined and can't be expanded to any action or event. For example, I can't be locked up for calling a mayor stupid under sexual harassment laws.

Hate speech, on the other hand, is so loosely defined that it could mean anything at any time. Whoever is governing can one day decide that people who didn't vote for him did it to spit and hate him, thus he could position police at the voters booths to make sure everyone was voting for him and arresting those that don't.

On a less extreme example, he could also decide that any article detailing a scandal that he was involved in is hate speech, and thus close down any news station or paper that dares publish against him.

 

[Triumph]

Yes. Look at the race riots in France. The society at large refuse to recognize them as French because they ain't white and they share a different culture. I have seen blatant racism in Germany too.

In time, mentality will change. I simply refuse to believe that Europe is a utopia that is all accepting and infinitely better than America. I think race relations in the US for the most part are not really that bad.

Yes I made an earlier post about this. It's easy to say that you are tolerant of other cultures when you never have to deal with them, like most Europeans.

 

[BeauJangles]

There is a monolithic difference between someone expressing their opinion and someone spreading hate.



Sure I may hold the officer back, but I wouldn't need a weapon for that, which was the bedrock of this argument.

No, you said you'd never touch a police officer because it's a crime. "Hold[ing] an officer back" is also a crime, just as much as assaulting a police officer is. I'm just trying to point out that there are times when defending yourself from the police is legal and legitimate -- something you have completely refused to acknowledge in this thread.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. You're happy with your laws in England, and could probably care less what me or any American thinks. Conversely, I really don't care what you think, but I do wish you'd try to recognize that there are fundamental differences between American society and British society and that many of our choices when it comes to ideas like freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, etc stem from events that have impacted our society. More importantly, there are legitimate reasons why you feel safer in England than you would in America. There are also legitimate reasons why I feel the opposite.

 

[HAL9000]

OMG!! Why didn't we think of that!! Just arrest all the criminals, it's so simple it's genius. Arrest them all and throw away the key. Too bad about that guy he stabbed to death though. I mean it's a little laterfor him.

That's true.

Address it from a merely socio-economic standpoint then. Poorer areas, regardless of race, tend to have higher rates of violent crime. Or you can just run and hide because the argument went purely academic and you have nothing to back up your belief.

Fair point, areas with a lower average income to have a higher crime rate.

No, you said you'd never touch a police officer because it's a crime. "Hold[ing] an officer back" is also a crime, just as much as assaulting a police officer is. I'm just trying to point out that there are times when defending yourself from the police is legal and legitimate -- something you have completely refused to acknowledge in this thread.

I acknowledge these events but these absurdly rare events do not warrant owning a firearm.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. You're happy with your laws in England, and could probably care less what me or any American thinks. Conversely, I really don't care what you think, but I do wish you'd try to recognize that there are fundamental differences between American society and British society and that many of our choices when it comes to ideas like freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, etc stem from events that have impacted our society. More importantly, there are legitimate reasons why you feel safer in England than you would in America. There are also legitimate reasons why I feel the opposite.

I do accept there are differences between our two society, but I legitimately believe that the main differences are because Americans have no idea what life would be like if they made the changes we have, life would be better. Statistically that is the case.

 

[BeauJangles]

I do accept there are differences between our two society, but I legitimately believe that the main differences are because Americans have no idea what life would be like if they made the changes we have, life would be better. Statistically that is the case.

No, you don't accept those differences, or really understand them because if you did, you'd understand why America has such fundamentally different approaches to the same problems. From what I've gathered you've never been to America or, if you have, you haven't really traveled much. As someone who has lived in this country and traveled around it fairly extensively and as someone who has traveled through England, I can say that the differences are absolutely fundamental and go to the core of what it is to be British or what it is to be American.

Your ignorance on what makes Americans "American" is rather astounding and is clearly exemplified in your lack of understanding of how different America is depending on where you live. Take, for example, my city. If I wanted to get a pistol, I would basically have to give up my right to carry that on my person and accept a "to and from the range" restriction. Even then, I'd have to show the city that I had a need for the weapon. That is dramatically different than most of the rest of the country.

Simply put, your rules wouldn't work here. Just like, in your view, our rules wouldn't work there.

 

[Linflas]

Defamation laws existed in the US before the First amendment came into play. After the first amendment, it has become very hard to sue someone for defamation (the way it should be).

Sexual Harassment laws are pretty well defined and can't be expanded to any action or event. For example, I can't be locked up for calling a mayor stupid under sexual harassment laws.

Hate speech, on the other hand, is so loosely defined that it could mean anything at any time. Whoever is governing can one day decide that people who didn't vote for him did it to spit and hate him, thus he could position police at the voters booths to make sure everyone was voting for him and arresting those that don't.

On a less extreme example, he could also decide that any article detailing a scandal that he was involved in is hate speech, and thus close down any news station or paper that dares publish against him.

I'm pretty sure sexual harassment actions are civil actions, not criminal so it is not even a valid comparison to the hate speech laws in the UK.

 

[schneiderguy]

If Brits are happy that carrying long knives around in public is a crime, then that's up to them to decide. It's all relative anyway isn't it? Try carrying around a concealed handgun in Chicago. Or walking around downtown LA toting an AK47.

It's actually perfectly legal to carry an unloaded AK47 around LA as long as you avoid school zones and aren't pointing it at anyone.

Most states are even less restrictive than CA in this regard. Just because you can doesn't mean people do.

Nevada is a total police state. If I walk around town with an assault rifle the police will murder me. Fascists.

No you wouldn't, but you don't understand gun laws apparently.

Note lack of murdering in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUd_00Xrf_U

Also HAL9000 probably doesn't want to watch it, it would make him wet himself.

 

[HAL9000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUd_00Xrf_U

Also HAL9000 probably doesn't want to watch it, it would make him wet himself.

I watched it, it didn't make me wet myself but the guy in the video aka "TheAK47Master" is a dick / moron.

 

[nobodyknows]

That's true.

Says you.

You sure picked the right moniker.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Yes. Look at the race riots in France. The society at large refuse to recognize them as French because they ain't white and they share a different culture. I have seen blatant racism in Germany too.

In time, mentality will change. I simply refuse to believe that Europe is a utopia that is all accepting and infinitely better than America. I think race relations in the US for the most part are not really that bad.

Yes, European racism is a pretty big problem, enough that I would not be surprised if we see another genocide in Europe.

 

[HAL9000]

Says you.

You sure picked the right moniker.

You think it's not too late for the dead guy?!

Edit: I have RabidMongoose on ignore, I imagine his post contains the words peasant or caste or racist? :biggrin:

 

[schneiderguy]

I watched it, it didn't make me wet myself but the guy in the video aka "TheAK47Master" is a dick / moron.

He's my hero. Eh walks down the street with an AK47 and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[HAL9000]

He's my hero. Eh walks down the street with an AK47 and isn't afraid of anything.

fixed.

He's a moron, it doesn't surprise me that a moron is your hero... :hmm:

 

[nobodyknows]

I watched it, it didn't make me wet myself but the guy in the video aka "TheAK47Master" is a dick / moron.

He posted the video AT 2:11, 5 minutes later you posted that you watched it. It's over 16 minutes long.

Your just trolling away, as usual.

 

[HAL9000]

He posted the video AT 2:11, 5 minutes later you posted that you watched it. It's over 16 minutes long.

Your just trolling away, as usual.

It's been posted on this forum before moron, I've watched it before.

You're just trolling away, as usual.