Repeal SP1 and SP2 Rally at all UC campuses tommorrow: What's your view on affirmative action?

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Feb 7, 2000
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&quot;<< everybody is born equally >>vs.<< theres a reason that blacks are stereotyped as being lazy and mexicans are stereotyped as having large families - because its true. >>Self-contradictory.&quot;

thats not self contradictory cause blacks arent born lazy and mexicans arent born with some inate ability to reproduce at a faster rate or younger age
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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&quot;there isnt a high school in the country that deprives their students the opportunity to learn. lead paint?? how the heck does lead paint effect somebody's ability to learn?? computers?? i didnt touch a computer till my freshman year in college. and as a matter of fact their are a shltload of teachers in suburbs being paid pathetic salaries. public schools in the ghetto = public schools in the suburbs. the only difference is the mentality of the students.&quot;


Your right on the first point. But some schools are MORE effective in teaching students than others. Its been proven that higher funding can equal better education. Thats not the only determining point, but its a huge factor.

How does lead paint affect someones ability to learn? Uh, it fusks with your mind man! Are you retarded? And the fact that you didnt touch a computer until college-great-but when did you go to high school? 1972? That would explain that.

Yes, there are a lot of teachers being paid crappy salaries in the burbs. My mother is one of them. She gets paid 45k a year after 30 years of teaching with a masters degree. Public school in the ghetto DO NOT equal public schools in the burbs (read more affluent). You are blind to more than just that if you cannot understand that point.

I think its safe to say that you are pushing a racist viewpoint.
 

SendTrash

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2000
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<< I don't see what all the lame students over at the UCs is fussing over the repeal of SP1 and SP2. Even if they are replealed, prop 209 still stands, and the ban on AA would still be in effect. The students that are involved in the rallies are really making fools of themselves with their non-rational arguments and childish behavior. >>


Dude, you have to understand that repealing SP1 and SP2 will make changes happen. Even if Prop209 is there (although it wouldn't stand a chance once sp1 and sp2 are repealed) it would have definate changes on the admissions and hiring policies of the UCs. The wording or Sp1 is that no less than 75 percent of the students admitted will be based only on GPA and SAT scores. That is plain wrong! Also, SP2 denieds that consideration of race to play a factor in hiring Profesors and that is also wrong. How can race not be a factor when teaching certain classes, such as Chicano studies?
Plus, as a side note, I just have to say that I am ofended at the statement that you made saying that people invovled in the rally are &quot;childish&quot;. If you would listen to the &quot;other side&quot; and try to educate yourself on the issue, you would see why these people are pissed off! Most of these students are invovled in outreach efforts such as the SIOC (Student Iniated Outreach Center) and they see first hand the efforts of such institutionalize barriers and policies.

BTW as a side note, this is the biggest thread that I have started, and its great that we have such an open dialogue. But remember to attack IDEAS not people, so don't categorize the protestors and people fighting for a cause they believe in as &quot;childish&quot;. Instead, ask why? Why do they believe in this or that? Voice what you believe should be done, and why.

Well.. enough of a break.. need to go back to studying for finals...
 

SendTrash

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2000
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<< Too me, that's just more of a comfort zone problem; you feel uncomfortable around the majority (whites), so you want AA to come in and make the atmosphere more comfortable for you. I think thats a bogus reason. >>


Yes that is a bogus reason, but She didn't say that. The student protestors aren't fighting because they was to see &quot;more of their kind&quot;. Face it, they are in college, the point is that they are fighting for those who aren't in there. They are fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves, for the people who are put down by visible and invisible barriers. They are fighting for those high school students that came to the rally.
So, yes that is a bogus reason, but that is not the reason they are fighting. I just have to straighten things out.
 

borealiss

Senior member
Jun 23, 2000
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oh geez rex. i'm second generation asian here in the US. my mom lived for twenty years or more in a japanese refugee camp building converted into an apartment in taipei. her living quarters for her entire family of 7 people were no bigger than your dorm, and 90 people shared 1 toilet and 1 tub that didn't even have running water! and yet, she managed to come to america and make a decent living. my father came from minnesota and grew up in inner city Minneapolis which makes south central LA look like a playground. look up some stories about North High in old headlines and you get the idea. shootings were a regular thing, and many of his classmates are dead because of the conditions they were in. now if i can make it to UCLA and i'm the second generation from the sh!thole my parents grew up in, why can't anybody else? what about the vietnamese people that came here during the vietnam war? a lot of them i knew when i lived in little saigon are going to some colleges like berkeley! it is so absurd that someone is disadvantaged more than another because of race to the extent to justify giving them special priveleges over people who are not minorities. you're basically saying &quot;screw you&quot; to white people and even subjecting them to make &quot;reparations&quot; for something they didn't even commit, ala slavery! puuleease! why should i have to suffer because i have a white last name, as that is what will be seen when i apply to a college? did i commit the atrocities that happened 200 years ago? 50 years ago? no, but according to you, i should make reparations because of what happened before i was even born, or any other white person for that matter. how unbelievably ludicrous. and then there are white immigrants here that come from other countries and are the first of their families to ever come to america. oh well, i guess they're screwed because they're race committed atrocities before they even came here, according to you. FACT, LA Unified gets much more funding than a lot of suburbs do, as do a lot of inner city schools. FACT, white people consist of the MINORITY in engineering at UCLA, while asians and indians make up most of the people there, many of which are second generation or immigrants, making english their SECOND language. and you know well enough that the school of engineering is the hardest to get into. wow, considering all these minorities can make themselves the majority in the most intense academic programs at UCLA, do you really need affirmative action? obviously no. why don't we have more chinese basketball players? they are under-represented. hmm, maybe because some of them are too short to compete realistically with the taller white and black players we have here. if they're too short, they're too short. they don't deserve special treatment just because they're &quot;underrepresented.&quot; if you recall during our orientation first year, our president made a speech saying that if it wasn't for AA, he would not have gotten in. he then publicly admitted that he got a 900 on his SAT score. now, i wonder what person got screwed that did qualify to get in as much as he did in order for him to come here. don't you?
 
Feb 7, 2000
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Luckster

oh i get it. public schools in the ghetto are POISONING their students with lead paint. of course! how could i have missed that!

of course more funding can yield results. you get what you pay for. unfortunetley the state cant spend 100k per teacher. but dont think for a second that teachers in the ghetto are less intelligent than teachers in the suburbs. teachers arent the limiting factor, the students are.

&quot;I think its safe to say that you are pushing a racist viewpoint&quot;
the only thing im pushing is that people take responsiblity for their actions and quite blaming society for their problems. how the heck is that racist?
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
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dude, not 'everyone is born equally' - i'm denying something that i'm not too sure means anything. :eek:
is anybody today born into a utopia .

even the best, most charitable, and well-meaning intentions to help a class of underpriviledged people can produce nothing but harm when the collective desire to act now and feel good about the help you are providing obscures the actual needs of people.

affirmative action plans are condecending racial guilt programs that appease the conscious of the givers rather than better the lives of the recipients. sensible goals should at the very least not be guilty of the same racial hypocrisy which they seek to remedy, namely creating two sets of eligibility criteria defined (and separated) along racial lines.

my $.02





 

SendTrash

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2000
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One more post before I really go back to studying.
There have been a lot of post mentioning the &quot;mentality&quot; of the students. Well... I have a few words on that :D

When you are a race that has been consistenly persecuted, kicked and ignored like African Americans you develop a mind set. In social studies its called Colonial Mentality. When you are put down for so long, you develop the idea and notion that you cannot succeed. That the dominate majority (whites, for lack of a better example) are better than you. That you the Black (example again) aren't equal, they why should you try? When you see everything around you fail or make you believe that you will fail you just don't give a damn. Foe example, in Belmont High School, their College Center is the size of half a class room that is used for discussion in UCLA. That is suppose to serve Belmont HS? Belmont for those that don't know is the school in LAUSD that has the most students and is the smallest campus in all of LAUSD. It makes you see just how much schools want them to succeed, or where to go. Basically the students are told ( sometimes directly) that they are just suppose to be trained labor. In some other High Schools, they even teach &quot;Hair Dressing&quot; and &quot;Nail Polish&quot; classes! These students in inner communities are continously told from day one, that you aren't suppose to ammount to anything, that they cannot go to college because they just wouldn't belong.

Now what does Afirmative Action suppose to help this or even change this attidude? It tells those students that there is a place for you in college. That colleges do want you, that you deserve an education.... no even further, that you have a right to an education.

If those students see an opportunity, and attempts to outreach, then they will strive for that goals. These students aren't &quot;lazy&quot;, and have bad parents, they see that there is no escape ( the only escape is through drugs and gangs).

I know that many of you haven't been in these schools ( I went to a private Catholic HS)or even faced racism on a continual basis. So it is hard to understand this mind set, or you simply say, so what? But try to read more about it and become aware of the issue, don't dismiss it or just leave it to your own current prejudices. Before taking some GEs in North Campus classes (Social Welfare and ethnic studies) I thought that people can succeed in any stuation if they are &quot;biologically gifted&quot;. I thought that I would be the same person that I am now even if I was born black in the inner city because I am smart. But I released that I am privileged. I had a mom that is a doctor, that even helped me in homework when I was young, that did remind me to do my homework. But for a student in a disadvataged community, both parents work, how are these students suppose to be reminded to study if there are no parents around?
 

borealiss

Senior member
Jun 23, 2000
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<< But for a student in a disadvataged community, both parents work, how are these students suppose to be reminded to study if there are no parents around? >>

are we to become their parents? i use to live in a trailer park rex, and we rented the trailer for about 4 years. it's called lazy parenting, and it's becoming more prevalent in american society. how did my parents find time to remind me to study? considering my father worked overseas for a long time, and i saw him 1/2 of the time i saw my mom who also worked, it must be a great mystery. if a person doesn't know the value of an education by the time they apply to college, and regard education as a hassle, they don't deserve to go to college. also, more white people are in poverty than black or hispanic people in the US. why do they get the short end of the stick?
 

yellowperil

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2000
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I take issue with the fact that schools in the ghetto are comparable to schools in the 'burbs. I went to elementary/middle/high school in a poor, racially mixed community. About 60% of the school was white, 35% African-American, 10% Hispanic, ~5% other races (including Asian). We did not get much funding; in fact, the county had to institute a medical prep magnet program in my high school to keep most of the middle/upper income students from transferring to the school in the adjacent city (which is one of the wealthiest cities in Florida). Nonetheless, I still had some of the best teachers I ever had in high school. However, there was an atmosphere of expectation that after you graduated you would either get a job, go to community college or end up in jail. I'm not trying to rag on community college BTW, but you get the point. Unlike the school across town, our school did not encourage everyone to take the PSAT or offer test prep materials. Our career resource center had a few pamphlets from some private colleges but there was very little active recruiting from colleges. We had a minimum number of AP courses and only one was taught by a professor with a doctorate. Not only that, but if you came from a well-reputed school like the one across town, you had a better chance to getting into the school of your choice. Given the atmosphere of low expectation coupled with a lack of funding for programs, I can see why only a handful of students from my graduating class entered the state university level.
 
Feb 7, 2000
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&quot;When you are a race that has been consistenly persecuted, kicked and ignored like African Americans&quot;

what are you talking about? slavery?? segregation?? what time frame are you in??

the truth is that african americans are NOT constantly persecuted, kicked and ignored
furthermore the police do NOT discriminate against blacks
and the sat isnt biased (how can math be biased?)

these are all just excuses used by the naacp and people like jesse jackson. why do some people feel its necessary to blame white society for other peoples problems??

and how is it possible that asian minority groups are able to do so well? asian immigrants have faced similar discrimination through their history. just more proof that its a cultural difference that creates the disparity and not white society.
 
Feb 7, 2000
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&quot;Now what does Afirmative Action suppose to help this or even change this attidude? It tells those students that there is a place for you in college. That colleges do want you, that you deserve an education.... no even further, that you have a right to an education.&quot;

no it doesnt. aa says a black guy with 1000 on his sat and a 3.0 is more deserving than a white guy with a 1300 and 3.5
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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&quot;the truth is that african americans are NOT constantly persecuted, kicked and ignored
furthermore the police do NOT discriminate against blacks&quot;

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! What time frame are YOU in buddy? There are currently at least 13 lawsuits against states for racial profiling by police. Yeah, Im sure ALL of them are meritless.

Quit trolling.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Yeah, Im sure ALL of them are meritless.

African Americans make up 12% of the population and are responsible for 50% of the violent crimes in this country. Wow, racial profiling is so unreasonable.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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i favor top X% admissions policies over any overtly race-based policy such as affirmative action.
 

stonerdave

Golden Member
Jul 26, 2000
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&quot;...Another example is the Thursday protest in downtown Berkeley. BAMN, one of the many liberal wacko college groups rallied together high school students around the bay area to protest for AA. I can tell you that 99% of the kids there didn't know or care WTF they were protesting for, it was just an excuse to get crazy and loot stores downtown. BAMN just used them to bring attention to their little pet cause...&quot;

you said it man. i lived in ann arbor for 3 years and it was the same goddamn sh!t. just to let you know, i'm split on the issue of aa, but these bamn people are so stupid. every day, screaming some annoying propaganda on the diag with megaphones or polluting the buildings with their catchy flyers, that would end up in the trash day after day after day...

it really bothered me because i don't really disagree with them, but the methods they use to get their point across makes them look like they're in the 5th grade.

what bothered me the most was when ward connerly came to speak at u-m. the bamn people had this great idea to harass him, during his lecture! this is something he planned out on his own time, and was open to the public. how mature...

link.

damn, now i'm steamed. i'm going to a bar to let off some of this tension. later.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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&quot;African Americans make up 12% of the population and are responsible for 50% of the violent crimes in this country. Wow, racial profiling is so unreasonable. &quot;

Please show me some hard statistics on that. Thanks! :)

Racial profiling isnt to catch violent criminals...In the most commonly used form, police will pull over blacks at a higher rate on the highways, and then search them at a higher rate. Now, its been proven that they dont speed/commit more infractions while driving, so why pull them over more? Racial profiling is punishing someone based on something they MIGHT have committed, not something they DID commit. Thats not what our criminal justice system is based on.

I wish I had the hard statistics for this, but I just sold my textbook today. :| Sorry about that. :) Nevertheless, racial profiling is not about catching violent criminals-its mostly to catch gun/drug violators. Even if your claimed statistics are true, racial profiling is still unreasonable. Its not right to discriminate based on ones race...you cannot punish one for the deeds of another.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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WEll, I see another good ole AA thread. Well I am an enemy in certain terms with a few here because of threads like this. But the truth is &quot;We are created equal, but not born equal&quot;. I see a lot of good responses. Some of the same dumb ones too. AA does not force any college or job to take on &quot;unqualified&quot; individuals. Most people believe that but its not true. What AA does is force a business or institutuion to give a chance to a &quot;qualified&quot; minority. As a matter of fact AA has this stigma that it is for blacks only. Another lie. AA covers asians, blacks, latinos, indians, and women. And there are a few other races in there as well. The notion of the one guy who said an AA pre med student couldn't spell is a lie. There is no way on earth that a pre med student even from the worse high school ain't smart. My brother was pre med so trust me I know. Our country was not founded on freedom for all. Blacks and women were not considered citizens for a very long time. People forget that civil rights laws only came to be in existence just 30 years ago. Now just stop and think. This country has been here for over 400 years, just 30 years ago laws had to be passed to give blacks &quot;on paper&quot; the same rights as whites. This is a fact: This country was founded on racist pricinples by racist men. If anyone thinks that 30 years is going to undo over 300 years of civil unrest between races, they are just kidding themselves. Heck I am older than 30 myself. AA is not perfect. AA has some imperfections. The whites are not totally right concerning the sitauation, but neither are the blacks. Hopefully someday our society will be without prejudice so programs like AA can be done away with forever. But we as a nation aren't there yet. Racism is alive today and you better believe that. Is it as bad as say 40 years ago. No. But is it where we can believe that for the most part people are going to do what's right. Again the answer is no. Until we are able to look and not see color, as imperfect as AA may be it must remain and will remain. If not we as a nation must must have an alternative to deal with situations AA tries to deal with. AA was never a be all end all program. But merely one tool used to bring about equality. We got a long way to go but if we continue to believe that only race is responsible to straighten out the sitauation we aren't ever going to make it.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Do you really think our society can someday be without prejudice? I don't think there is anywhere in the world where there isn't some kind of prejudice.

We got a long way to go but if we continue to believe that only race is responsible to straighten out the sitauation we aren't ever going to make it.

And that's why AA is bad.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
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it probably will not ever be perfect. But nothing is. There will be prejudice, but you can fight prejudice in another way than causing more prejudice. As one guy said AA is racism that is &quot;ok&quot;