Repeal SP1 and SP2 Rally at all UC campuses tommorrow: What's your view on affirmative action?

[axelfox]

Well, I'm kind of tied inbetween. One of my history professors when to UC Santa Cruz and then Harvard Graduate school because of AA (if I'm not mistaken). He is a very good professor, but I don't know enough about his past to justify if he was a good enough student to qualify. I think I can say that through AA, he has "better," for a lack of a better word. If it weren't for AA, I don't think he would be where he is know.

On the other hand, one of the interviews I saw on TV said that she'd rather see more people of her color/race. Too me, that's just more of a comfort zone problem; you feel uncomfortable around the majority (whites), so you want AA to come in and make the atmosphere more comfortable for you. I think thats a bogus reason. Go to a different school if you want that; I don't know for latinos, but there are many "black" colleges around (Grambling, Howard, I think). Heck, the small private college I go to has more whites, blacks, and latinos than asians. I ain't crying about it (Although I felt a bit uncomfortable at times with my identity, but thats a different story).

Just a rant..

 

[josphstalinator]

affirmative action is wrong for one reason - its unfair. accepting underqualified people at the expense of people that are more qualified is just plain wrong. looking at outside factors other than gpa and sat scores should be a last resort, not the sole basis for admission. if anybody actually thinks that somebodys essay or letters of recommendation are a better predictor of success in college than test scores and gpa then your mistaken.

lets talk a second about this word "qualified." everybody is "qualified" to a certain extent for everything. hell i can say that my 5 years of playing street basketball makes me "qualified" to play in the nba but that sure as hell doesnt mean im gonna get drafted. an analogous situation to affirmative action would be the nba drafting players based on any other factor other than their ability to play basketball. how silly would that be??

FACT: affirmative action IS reverse discrimination. how is increasing somebodies test scores simply cause of the color of their skin NOT considered reverse discrimination??

FACT: many peole who &quot;benefited&quot; DO end up dropping out or struggling through college. how many engineers benefited from affirmative action? very very very few because practically none of the people who get in with <1000 sat's can make it through engineering or other majors that actually require brain cells. lets fact it, it doesnt take a genious to study ethnic studies or some other major of equal gayness. and this is especially true when you have professors like mr saragoza @ cal who hand out credits for free, literally. for those of you who dont know what im talking about professor saragoza is a professor at UCB who gave two football players 4 units each so they could remain eligible for the 1998 football season. the two players have since dropped out and they completed absolutely 0 work for the credits assigned to them from mr saragoza. the punishment for professor saragoza has yet to be determined.

basically what affirmative action accomplishes is this: you take away a spot from a potential chemist or engineer and replace that person with a general studies major then when that person achieves a mediocre gpa you say &quot;see the person was 'qualified' &quot; what a joke!

the color of somebodies skin should NEVER be a factor in any aspect of life, whether is getting a job, applying for school, or anything else. this is the only way to ensure equal rights.

and your argument about quotas is complete bull. what difference does it make if the number of illegitimate students is pre-defined or not? if its 1 illegitimate student or 10,000 its unfair regarless.

&quot;Repealing SP-1 would show the University does not believe in segregation&quot;
this is just comical. how have universities ever done somethign to show that they believe in segregation?? simply because they try to admit students based on their ability to learn that makes them racist?? its not the universities responsibility to show support, its their responsibility to provide the best education possible to their students, and the most effective way to do this is to admit the most inteligent students to create the feircest competition.

and lets clarify something. minorities are OVER represented in todays universities. the average sat scores and gpa's of minorities is far below that of non minorities, and that is fact.

&quot;but with evidence of overcomming adversity and having leadership potentials&quot;
what evidence?? are you talking about the i am black thus i have overcome the white mans master plan to put me in jail hurdle?? lol. so simply cause your minority you have &quot;overcome adversity&quot;? wtf are you even talking about? you make no sense

if minorities wanna go to college then 1. put the basketball down and pick up a book 2. learn to speak english 3. dont have 10 babies before your 20 4. punish your kids if they get C's
and society does NOTHING to hinder people from doing these things

 

[PistachioByAzul]

And has it ever occured to you that they couldn't do well in high school because of discrimination?

Going through Berkeley High african american kids never tried as hard as white or asian kids, they were mainly goofing off in class and socializing. The dominant african american culture doesn't appear to value hard work. Needless to say there are many exceptions. Teachers would go out of their way to help these kids (this is Berkeley after all) but african american kids still perform at a lot lower level than whites/asians.

Another thing, two of my friends, both african (from Eritrea and Nigeria so not african american) do pretty fsckin good in school. You know why? Their parents instilled the value of hard work in them.

Discrimination my ass.


What makes whites do well in high school and minorities do poorly? The fact that whites are smarter?

Like hans007 said, it is a culture thing.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

How do you address the fact that African American culture is destroying them, and is the root of most of their problems, without sounding racist by todays PC standards? You can't. This is something that needs to be addressed.

AA/hate crime/slavery reparations BS won't help a damn thing. Just feel good &quot;solutions&quot; that don't touch on the real problem.

 

[weezergirl]

i go to ucla too and never really had a true opinion about this whole subject. i kind of felt torn between. but after seeing this rally where students were shouting &quot;regents are racist&quot; or whatever, and seeing grafitti all over school buildings, my respect for these people went down. also after reading these opinions, i think i am now leaning against AA. i actually came from oklahoma, with parents who immigrated over from vietnam with practically no money at all and no education. this is definitely a state where the majority is white but through hard work and discipline you can overcome whatever stands in your way. i am now attending ucla, a female engineer mind you , and i never took any sat prep class. they are practically unheard of here. anyways i, along with 2 of my other friends got into uc schools including uc berkeley. all female and both with parents who immigrated over with not a dime in their pockets. i also have cousins who live in los angeles and go to a really crappy school. the standards of that school are definitely NOT what they should be. but her parents make her study day in and day out and they are hardly home themselves because they are constantly working to support the family. every night they issue out problems or check their homework. believe me it does not take that long for anybody out there who thinks that minorities' parents just wouldn't have time to do that. anyways, it would make me very sad to know that people like this who work extremely hard to make it to college will be shoved out of the way because of people who feel they should have it easier because of the skin of their color. and whoever said people are created &quot;equal&quot;. uhh they're not really. men are physically stronger than women. subjects such as engineering naturally DO come easier to males. it's just the difference in thinking. i don't know about cultural differences. but i do know one thing, asian kids definitely are pushed harder than the average kid. that is why they succeed. not because most of them are richer than the next minority or not because they are living under better conditions. i know TONS of underpriveleged asians who have still been able to succeed. how do you argue that? show me the next minority who has worked as hard as an asian kid and not done as well in school. i just don't see the difference. i would love somebody to prove me wrong though.

 

[yellowperil]

I feel that discrimination is initiated by the majority but also propagated by the minority. Institutionalized discrimination is always started by the majority, and the minority rebels by discriminating back, making the problem continue. Therefore it's a two way problem that needs compromise on both sides. On one hand, using two standards for admission into school or getting a job is unfair, but on the other you can't simply ignore discrimination as a myth unless you feel you can't be bothered to think outside the &quot;as long as I get mine I don't care&quot; box. The real affirmative action should begin with elementary and secondary schools to make sure they get the right kind of funding, teachers, etc. to prevent the problem instead of patching it up.

 

[Lucky]

&quot;It's not, it's being perpetuated by stupid white people who feel guilty for being such evil racist opressors that white people inherently are&quot;

I hope thats a f**king joke. Otherwise, STFU!


We need to work on the elementary schools and high schools first. Yes, whites (especially richer) may be getting better education. Blame it on the way we raise taxes. Property taxes fund the schools. Richer neighborhoods=better funded schools. Ohio's school funding program was declared unconstitutional because of how poorly the school down here in appalachia ohio (which BTW are overwhelmingly white) are funded. Its not always this instituinal racism that you are yapping about. Its not always racismo-I would argue its more class. (which is conncected often in the case of poor blacks.)

Here's an idea: Instead of raising military spending 14%, how about we cut it 10% and spend the rest on education. Then, we might start to see a level playing field.

 

[Tib]

my take:

&quot;Affirmative action is a disgrace to our country.&quot;

Why should we allow people not as smart as other people to get into a high demand college just because they are a different race? I say, just screw it, and the smartest people should be there, regardless of race.

 

[Double Trouble]

AA and the whole lot of wacko's that support it can be summed up in just one word: sad. For starters, lets drop the politically correct term of &quot;affirmative action&quot; and call it what it really is: &quot;Discrimination deemed OK because it's supposed to help the disadvantaged&quot;.

I have always been completely baffled that the same groups that are screaming &quot;racism&quot; at the drop of a hat at everything and everyone find it perfectly acceptable to add &quot;ethnic background&quot; as a qualifying factor to determine who gets into the school. The wacko liberal extremists scream that they want equality, but what they really want is preferential treatment. Why not drop the question about ethnic background from the application altogether and judge everyone the same? Wouldn't that be truly 'equal'? Yes it would, but that wouldn't be good enough, some want preferential treatment.

Come to think about it, that's a running theme through the liberal groups (gay/lesbian organizations, rainbow coalition etc etc). They say they want equal treatment, but their actions show you they want special preferential treatment.

<< would argue that a race and heritage of a person is an important part of who they are and it affects their attitude, their involve in communities, and is an integral part of themselves.>>

Hmmmmmm.... in effect then, you are proclaiming that you are a racist. Once again, if you want EQUAL treatment, then decisions on hiring and applications should be made without considering race -- to really make it equal.

 

[AmbitV]

<< affirmative action is wrong for one reason - its unfair. accepting underqualified people at the expense of people that are more qualified is just plain wrong. >>



I see a lot of this sentiment such as this in the above posts and with those who are against AA. Yes, if everyone starts out equally, then it is unfair. You are right, the more qualified people would be losing out at the expense of the less qualified.
But the whole problem is that people DON'T start out equally.



<< How do you address the fact that African American culture is destroying them, and is the root of most of their problems, without sounding racist by todays PC standards? You can't. >>



This is exactly why I pressed the question. I find that whenever you keep pressing on why minorities do poorly, are not accepted, etc., those who are against AA start feeling the heat. I know I did before I had changed my view on AA.
Ask yourself if it's truly racism or if you're just not willing to accept it.
And for those who want to argue that minorities don't try as hard or whatever, answer me this: why the hell do I see lazy white students here that are barely passing and I see dozing off in the lecture halls!! Boy, they're trying so hard, why don't we give them a gold f'ing star!!

White people happen to have more hard work and determination instilled in them by their culture? And minorities don't?
If you're white or one of those minorities that have succeeded, it's easy to turnaround and shrug off the problem with some official BS like that.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

I would argue its more class. (which is conncected often in the case of poor blacks.)

Did you read weezer girl's post?

Here's an idea: Instead of raising military spending 14%, how about we cut it 10% and spend the rest on education. Then, we might start to see a level playing field.

Sure, throw more money at the problem and hope it goes away. In dirt poor places like India the kids in school are smarter than most American school kids, because their culture, like just the culture of about everyplace other than the USA, values hard work and discipline.

 

[hans007]

maybe there are lazy people, here but they may be fscking brilliant. Makes up for it. Besides they may have worked hard to get in at some point anyways. I think that personally i'm pretty lazy and kick back. But in high school it was instilled in my mind that i was going no where without going to college, so i at least bothered to get good grades in high school. Hell i even bought an SAT book. it was $15 which most people can afford i'm assuming instead of another CD or tshirt. Depends what your priorities are and some people would rather have another tshirt or CD and thats their prerogative.

Secondly if african american culture is destroying their chances at getting in here, that isn't our problem. You dont take away from other people because some other people are self destructing. This is the typical &quot;american&quot; way of thinking where we have to go to every country that is destroying itself and fixing it.

And the guy who said there aren't many &quot;historically disadvantaged engineers&quot; had a point too. i'm in engineering. You have tons of asian and indian immigrants in there for some reason. Some can barely speak english but i'm sure they worked their asses off and have some part of their culture to thank for that work ethic.

And also someone said something about making all application not even have races on them. Ward connerly the UC regent that apparently everyone hates (he heads something called the american civil rights something) is right now trying to get a bill like that passed. He spearheaded prop 209 and sp1 / sp2. He also seems to have been colin powelized since well he's black. He was quoted in the last daily bruin as saying something like &quot;if these people cant measure up its not our problem to fix it.&quot; Really most of it is a work ethic problem, or more a lack of it.

Someone also mentioned that a lot of the nigerian and &quot;from africa&quot; black people are really hard working. My roomate has nigerian immigrant parents, and he's afraid of not doing well because of his parents. They have to work their ass off, which is also funny because something like 60% of the black people on campus in my estimation are from ethnically recent african immigrant families. I really think its a culture thing, and also an economic problem on the resource part of it. Of course if i ever say that some other group's culture is &quot;inferior&quot; in respect to looking good for admissions , or leads people of that culture to not look as good on admissions i'd have to fear for being beaten to death by an angry mob, and being cast as a racist asian who thinks he's better than everyone. If i could get my roomate to say that he'd probably be lauded as someone who was trying to lead his community to do something positive.

 

[AmbitV]

<< maybe there are lazy people, here but they may be fscking brilliant. >>



so white people are brilliant? All hail! They rule supreme!

 

[AmbitV]

<< Secondly if african american culture is destroying their chances at getting in here, that isn't our problem. >>



it is if it's your society that has instilled that culture in African Americans!
If you insist that it's culture, how about this: maybe they don't even bother working hard because they know they won't get in anyways! If I were African American, I might very well look at the number of blacks in college and say screw working hard, they're never gonna let me in anyways!

Why is it that minorities have to work their asses off and be the cream of the crop to get in, while whites can just party and drink alcohol all day long?

 

[hans007]

vman , i think you are an idiot because you cant read. i said lazy. i didnt say white. There are a lot of lazy people here, but maybe they got in because they are brilliant. You know that some people are smarter than other people. I&quot;m not talking race, i'm just saying people. You are not one of those people, and well if you were black green yellow white or brown i wouldn't talk to you , because you are an idiot. That is my way of thinking, i dont even know what race you are since we are on a BBS. everything should work like this. i've just judged you on your actions. on who you are and not what you are. and you are an idiot. who cant read or comprehend english.

that is their culture spreading their negativity. THere was that girl who posted about being from ohio and being poor and vietnamese. i'm sure there weren't any rich vietnamese people and she still worked hard. It is their culture making them give up that easily. There USED to not be a lot of asians at UCLA (the 60s and 70s and even farther before) and people still worked to get in. There used to be not a lot of rich asians, and asians still worked. Yes this is what send trash called the model minority BS, but you are just saying that just because there is no example for you to follow that is a person of your race you shouldn't do something. People judge what they can do by their own race and not what they are capable of, and that is a cultural problem.

 

[AmbitV]

LOL
I'm an idiot?
Look at my original post, I said I see a lot of WHITES that are lazy. Sure there are minorities that are lazy too, but my post referred to whites. And I assume you were responding to my post, right? And you said there may be lazy people, but they are brilliant. Uhm ok. BTW, I think you shouldn't be so lazy like you say you are and go hit the books. You should take advantage of your education here.
The fact that you admit that you are lazy tells me I shouldn't be wasting my time debating someone like you.

 

[josphstalinator]

&quot;But the whole problem is that people DON'T start out equally.&quot;
that is simply not true. everybody is born equally. what high school you go to or what neighborhood you live in is irrelevant. its a common misconception that schools in the ghetto are &quot;worse&quot; than schools in the suburbs. that couldnt be more untrue. ive lived in the ghetto. as a matter of fact the elementary school i went to was 80% mexican and the highschool i went to was prolly 70% minority and i turned out just fine (im an engineering student at UCB). you can only teach things to students that want to learn. and whether or not you want to learn is a direct reflection of how well your parents reared you, simple as that. as others have stated in this thread its a cultural difference. theres a reason that blacks are stereotyped as being lazy and mexicans are stereotyped as having large families - because its true. and society surely doesnt force these groups of people to be that way. and eventhough people choose to live this way all others do is make excuses for them. people just have to face reality and take responsibilities for their actions. if your lazy and irresponsible then dont expect to reap the same rewards that others do for being hard working and responsible.

 

[josphstalinator]

&quot;Why is it that minorities have to work their asses off and be the cream of the crop to get in, while whites can just party and drink alcohol all day long?&quot;

what a crock. hard work = success. people that work hard are gonna be successful. people that are lazy are screwing themselves. success is independent of race.

put it this way the &quot;crop&quot; your referring to is a bunch of lazy fuks, so of course you have to be the best of that &quot;crop&quot; to be successful

 

[AmbitV]

<< everybody is born equally >>



vs.



<< theres a reason that blacks are stereotyped as being lazy and mexicans are stereotyped as having large families - because its true. >>



Self-contradictory.

 

[hans007]

vman, there you go again, being stupid. Born equally. He was talking about mental ability. I hate it when pro AA people just jump on some key word and just blow up on it. Being lazy or having a lot of kids has nothing to do with how you are born, and has everything to do with how you are raised. Valueing having 10 kids is a cultural aspect. Religion is a cultural thing. Lots of latinos and filipinos are catholics. They believe in catholisism . I sure as hell dont and i'm part filipino but a lot do. Catholics dont endorse contraception. Thus filipinos and latinos tend to have larger families. There is some truth to every stereo type, but the reason it is a stereo type is it becomes a blanket generalization for all people of the group that the stereotype is applied. That is what is bad. I mean if i ate a bitter orange and was only exposed to bitter oranges, i may make the blanket generalization that all oranges are bitter, even though most are sweet. But obviously i was exposed to a bitter orange if i were to make a stereotype of all oranges in that way, so there was some truth to my statement though not very much. Some people may try to proove to me that oranges aren't bitter by letting me eat an overwhelming majority of sweet oranges. That is how you disproove a stereotype, by prooving that its false. If black people want to erase their lazy stereo type i suggest that they beat the crap out of the lazy black people that make it easier to support the stereotype and make everyone work harder.


Also i dont care if you were talking about lazy whites. I was just defending lazy people in general. That even if you are a lazy person here you deserved it and thats why you are here. You could be lazy now and you could have worked hard a while ago. Rich people dont have to work that hard, but they probably had to work hard to get there. Same thing. Your success is based on your work and your talent, nothing more. Some persons are more talent (which i'm sure you will again say is a race issue, but there are always people in each race that are more talented, and talent is also irregardless of race). Don't tell me not be lazy. Don't tell me how to live my life with no proof as to what would come out of my not being lazy. People debate with people who are smart. You dont want to debate with dumb people, because you will always win. I am lazy SOMETIMES. The amount of effort i have put into writing what 10 -11 posts and probably 8 pages of text in this thread prooves that in this respect i am not lazy. I think affirmative action is wrong, and i will work to proove that it is. That is not lazy. I dont really like MOST classes and i dont think they are very interesting. I get B-s and stuff in those classes, because i really dont care very much about them. I work hard when i am interested in something or when i have to work hard which means i probably care. I think its fruitless to work hard at something you dont care about. That is my philsophy right now, and you can try to make me believe otherwise if you give me a logical argument. But yours aren't very logical and dont appeal to me so i am not gonna change because the great vman told me to.

 

[Lucky]

disregarding the rest of your racist comments, lets take a look at this:

..its a common misconception that schools in the ghetto are &quot;worse&quot; than schools in the suburbs..


I went to New Trier High School in Winnetka, IL. Is, and has been rated the #1 high school in the country for quite some time. If I recall correctly, the school spent about 13-15,000 per student/year. Thats an incredible amount of money for high school. Teachers were regularly paid 80-$100,000 a year. Top teachers made $120k. We had two radio stations. One TV station. Every single language you could think of was taught. More guidance counselors that I see in college now. And you wouldnt believe the SAT prep that was available-for free. Computers (even in 95, 6 years ago, were extremely abundant. Top of the line, updated yearly. The building was in excellent shape. There wasnt lead paint to worry about, or leaking ceilings. Food was great (for a H.S.) Security was not an issue.

Compare that to a school servicing the (now defunct) Robert Taylor homes in the ghetto. Run down, POS building. Lead paint probably all over the place, mold as well. I doubt that computers were in every classroom, especially at that time. Teachers, often new, paid 22k to start, 35k TOPS, and thats even high. State minimum spending per pupil. (4.5k I think?) Its laughable to consider having a radio station there, let alone a TV station. Metal detectors at the entrances. Nasty food.


Now, without even getting into how all of this can affect one's education, you can clearly see your statement is wrong. These may be extreme examples-i admit-but its more common that you would believe, even at these disparities.

 

[AmbitV]

You're right, you're right Hans. I guess the fact that you goto UCLA and are lazy in a lot of classes proves that you're &quot;fscking brilliant&quot;. Damn, you're the bomb. I better back up.

If you think you can be lazy once you've made it to college because you've reached the top, well I disagree. Learning is a lifelong process, and you do it because you love it. I guess you came to UCLA to get a degree. I'm not knocking that, good for you. You're right, it's your life...do as you will with it.

Anyways, I don't want to turn this into a flame war. I think we've all tried to give our side of the argument, and we all come out the better for having tested the beliefs we hold. It's clear that neither side is going to change their mind, but at least we've exchanged opinions and ideas. I love the Internet.

 

[hans007]

ok agreed we'll stop the flaming. besides i think i worked harder in high school, i came here for the degree, and maybe the social interaction and thats about it. Besides i learn, i just really am not interested in some of the crap they make you take in engineering. I think thats fair enough, this thread had a good intention, and well i'm sorry i said got mad and called you an idiot several times. Anyways, i need to get back to this CS project

 

[Train]

Get over it guys, you are overanalyzing this thing way too much

plain and simple fact: AA is against the principles this country was founded on, it is a total contradiction to what the United States swears to.

You can argue all you want that it hleps people and makes things better, blah blah blah, throw stats around all you want, you can put $5 in my hand right now that would help me out, big frickin deal.

No one should be persecuted or discriminated against. And no one should be given speacial treatment due to the color of thier skin/sex/age/heritage/religion/etc you get the idea. Changing the name doesnt get rid of the stench of how wrong Affirmative Action really is.

 

[josphstalinator]

Luckster

there isnt a high school in the country that deprives their students the opportunity to learn. lead paint?? how the heck does lead paint effect somebody's ability to learn?? computers?? i didnt touch a computer till my freshman year in college. and as a matter of fact their are a shltload of teachers in suburbs being paid pathetic salaries. public schools in the ghetto = public schools in the suburbs. the only difference is the mentality of the students.

example:
long beach, california - long beach poly high school is in the middle of the ghetto. its a magnet school thus a bunch of students are bussed in to take part in their magnet program. just about every student that is in the magnet program is white or asian. the rest of the student body is black or mexican. so how do you account for this?? here you have blacks, mexicans, asians, and whites attending the same school yet only the whites and asians are taking advantage of what the school offers. ill say it again - location of the school is irrelavent, its the mentality of the student that matters.