Recount in Ohio A Sure Thing

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Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
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Diebold to Pay $2.6M Due to Insecure Voting Machines

Vote Fraud: Only Chumps and Compulsive Gamblers Keep On Playing in a Rigged Game

As the Bush Machine rolls on -- through Orwellian "Patriot" Acts, Intelligence "Reforms" and "Clear Skies" Initiatives, adding treason to treason, felony to felony, unconstitutional domestic acts to violations of international law, "crimes against all humankind" to crimes against the biosphere; as it authorizes torture, domestic surveillance, and terms the Geneva Convention "quaint" -- progressive pundits waffle on with exhortations to hopefulness, ideological mea culpas, adjurations to linguistic reframing, advocating emulations of the right, and statistical analyses based on flawed polling and fraudulent vote counts, I find myself wondering: How long are these people going to keep on playing in a rigged game?

The grassroots democratic drama of the 21st century is unfolding in Ohio
(not to mention New Mexico, Nevada, and oh yes, the Ukraine), blacked out
by the same pusillanimous establishment media that went along with alleged
Iraqi WMDs and al qaeda links; blacked out the CIA's role in bringing crack
cocaine to the country's ghettos (and apparently drove rare honest
journalist Gary Webb to an alleged "two-shot suicide"); and ignored by the
flaccid, complicit and supine DNC, Kerry/Edwards camp and Congress. They're
all acting exactly like the collusive wife in an abusive relationship.

The progressive strategists and operatives prattle on about the "White
Elephant" of the "race factor" in the 2004 election (duh!), but no one
seems to notice the gaggle of 500-pound gorillas sitting in the corner of
the national living room. Please, look at the data, citizens. The
election was stolen -- just like in 2000, 2002 and so many more before.
The system is rigged. Don't get over it; get with it! You can't win in a
rigged game. Stop playing. Change the game.

As that great American political sage, W. C. Fields put it, "There comes a
time when we must seize the bull firmly by the tail and stare the situation
squarely in the face." There's not enough space here to do more than
summarize the growing mountain of evidence that supports the rigged game
conclusion. The historic Conyers Committee is piling it up as we speak.
It's easy to find. If you haven't already, google "vote fraud," citizen.
Read it and weep. The incriminating facts are readily available all over
the internet and the "alternative media."

Please, don't be like my friend, a staunch Kerry volunteer, who hasn't
looked at the Ohio story because he reads the New York Times, watches the
News Hour and dismisses all contrary data a priroi as the delusions of the
"chattering class," "paranoid conspiracy theorists" and "whining losers."
The fact is, he doesn't want to know. His whole political paradigm would
fall apart like it did when he found out there's no Santa Claus.

But, to grasp the bull - even timorously - by the tail: the Voting
Integrity Project ( http://www.usvip.org ) points to ten factors that must
lead any fair person to question the "official" tally and insist upon an
objective recount:

1. Systematic, Widespread Voting Machine Irregularities
2. Highly Irregular Intervention by Federal Authorities
3. Impossible Vote Totals ( Some with a 1-in-250,000 chance of being
accurate, according to expert statisticians! )
4. Openly Partisan Election Officials
5. Openly Partisan and Untrustworthy Vendors of Election Machinery
6. Unexplained Exit Poll Disparities ( Exit polls were correct where there
was a paper trail and incorrect (+5% for Bush) where there was no paper
trail. )
7. Unreliable and Inadequate Numbers of Voting Equipment in Poor and
Working Class (non-Republican) Areas
8. Anomalous and Atypical Voting Pattern Changes from 2000 to 2004
9. Uncounted Ballots, Double Un-matching Sets of Tally Tapes and
Uncooperative Officials in Many Areas
10. Widespread Illegal Voter Suppression Activities

Susan Truitt, of the Citizens Alliance for Secure Election (
http://www.caseohio.org ), one of the plaintiffs in one of the several
suits being brought in Ohio to challenge the tally, has stated that, with
just the verified irregularities and violations her organization has
documented, the election plainly goes to Kerry. The 20 Ohio Electors who
voted for Bush did so with zero legitimacy and a second Bush term based on
their vote will be equally illegitimate. Think about that for a minute.
If this is not a constitutional crisis, I don't know what is.

All power to Badnarik and Cobb and Arnebeck and Truitt and Fitrakis and
Bonifaz and Conyers and Waters and Jackson and Curtis and Harris and all
those brave citizens contesting the highly dubious tally in Ohio, Florida
and elsewhere. With a judiciary stacked against them all the way to the
same Supreme Court that perpetrated the first Bush coup in 2000, their
chances of successfully litigating and reversing the outcome, having it
recognized by the judiciary, the Congress, the corporate media - not to
mention the Bush regime itself - will be a political accomplishment of
miraculous proportions and will no doubt require a Ukraine-scale turnout of
the citizenry to make it stick. May it be so!

However, failing a successful judicial, political, congressional and
popular revolt, we are dealing, for the indefinite future, with a fascist,
theocratic police state - and I use the terms precisely, not rhetorically.
("Fascism should more properly be called "corporatism,' since it is the
marriage of government and corporate power," said Mussolini, who ought to
know.) Making Howard Dean head of the DNC and commissioning George Lakoff
to "reframe" the party's "message" and PR material would be a necessary,
but hardly sufficient response.

A political system more crooked than a Las Vegas casino cannot qualify as a
"democracy," much less as the "leader of the free world." And those who
continue to play in it look to me like conscious or unconscious colluders,
or just plain chumps. Until you accurately diagnose and acknowledge the
disease, you cannot even begin to cure it.

And the disease we're dealing with - as originally diagnosed by that astute
political physician Swami Beyondananda - is "Electile Dysfunction"
complicated by advancing "Truth Decay."

The beginning of the cure, (necessary, but not sufficient), as prescribed
by political healers, like the ladies of Code Pink and other groups, is
enactment of a Voters' Bill of Rights: to wit:

1. Provide a Voter Verified Paper Trail for Touch-Screen Voting Machines
2. Create Independent, Non-Partisan and Transparent Oversight
3. Celebrate Our Democracy: Election Day as a National Holiday!
4. Maximize Voter Access
5. Count Every Vote!
6. Re-enfranchise Ex-Felons
7. Implement Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)
8. Provide Public Financing for Elections and Equal Air-Time
9. Ensure Third Party Candidates Easier Access to the Ballot and Debates
10. Abolish the Electoral College
( Sign on at:
http://www.codepinkalert.org/N...r_Bill_of_Rights.shtml )

My simple point is this - until a majority of progressive activists and
intellectual opinion-makers drop the delusions and cop to the fact that we
are playing in a game intentionally and adroitly rigged against us, we will
not win, we will not govern, we will not be prepared to govern, because we
will not deserve to govern. Good losers -- like John "Quick Concession"
Kerry and the "professional losers" of the DNC -- will predictably go on
losing. Just like the chain-smoking, gin-sipping, polyester-clad grandma
pumping endless quarters into the slot machine.

"I don't have that much time here in Washington," Bush told a White House
"economic summit" the other day. If this really is a nation of laws, he
should have a lot less time than he thinks. ( Yes, citizens. We must dare
to think such thoughts, if we are to be worthy of Jefferson, Franklin and
Paine. )

There's a "Block Bush Constitutional Insurrection" rally and demo being
organized by RedefeatBush.com from 10am - 4pm, January 6, at Upper Senate
Park, Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. when the electoral college vote is
delivered to Congress. The Ohio recount will be done by then. We should
have learned enough from the lawsuits and investigations to know the truth.
Got democracy? See you there.

==================================
( For more info on the Block Bush, a Constitutional Insurrection on
January 6, 2005:
www.answercoalition.org and
www.VoterMarch.org/j20hq/index.html on January 20th. Methinks Coronation
Day is too late to protest.)

James Heddle is a documentary filmmaker: eon3@earthlink.net
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
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0
From Democratic Underground posting:
http://www.democraticundergrou...iscu...3x130512#130543

Pay special attention to 2nd paragraph

""The Secret G.O.P. Campaign
New evidence suggests that in '96, Republicans worked hand in hand with groups purporting to be independent
By Viveca Novak and Michael Weisskopf/Washington - Time cover

(TIME, November 3) -- Two weeks before the 1996 election, Democrat Bill Yellowtail was in a neck-and-neck race for Montana's only House seat when a TV ad swooped out of the Big Sky. "Who is Bill Yellowtail?" it opened. "He preaches family values, but he took a swing at his wife." Yellowtail lost. A year later he's still trying to figure out who really took a swing at him. The ad's sponsor was a nonprofit group with a do-gooder name, Citizens for Reform. But the deeper mystery was how the organization knew to air a domestic incident more than 20 years old. Republican documents obtained by TIME help piece together this puzzle. What they point to is the possibility that G.O.P. candidates and groups that purport to be independent may have broken election law by coordinating their strategy.

Citizens for Reform was really a shell for Triad Management Services, a firm based in Washington that matches conservative donors with candidates and causes.

Full article at
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/27/time/gop.tric...

2. How the GOP bought the 1996 elections
by Tim Wheeler
Most of the groups which served as conduits for the RNC blitz are tax exempt and therefore barred from electioneering activities. It includes the American Defense Institute (ADI), the National Right to Life Committee, the Christian Coalition, the California Civil Rights Initiative, and a shadowy outfit called Triad Management.


Also ignored by Thompson's hearings, Levin charged, were fundraising activities by Dole for President and by Triad Management which he called "a totally new phenomenon in American electioneering ..." Triad is a private corporation which set up two tax exempt groups to serve as conduits for millions of dollars worth of TV ads supporting the Republicans. Triad also enabled wealthy GOP donors to "launder" contributions to the GOP far in excess of federal limits, Levin said. "Triad undertook all of these activities without ever registering with the Federal Election Commission or disclosing any contributions or expenditures." Yet this wholesale abuse of federal law was not considered "worthy of a single hearing witness or deposition" by Thompson and his fellow Senate Republicans, said Levin.

Full article at
http://www.pww.org/archives97/97-11-22-2.html

3. http://www.americanreview.us/stop3.htm
and lots more found by googling

GOP triad management

I can't continue any more just now. Please confirm whether related Triad company...""

So, is
Triad Government Information Inc of Xenia OH in any way linked to
Triad Management Services of Rockville MD ???????????????????????

=========================================


FYI - from yesterday?s Rapid Response national alert e-mail:



---------------

UN-ACTION ITEM

---------------



Please DO NOT write Rep. Conyers office, per the action that seems to be circling the internet.



From Rep. Conyers' office:

"these emails while sent with the best of intentions are clogging our email and requiring us to spend hours filtering these emails into the proper folders. . . If activists focused their efforts on getting R.'s to work for some kind of voting reform that would help the cause much more. I encourage you to contact your member of Congress, and if you like the Judiciary R.'s (although Members of Congress often only read respond to their own constituents communications), to support election reform and transparency."

Effective alternative actions:



1. Call your Senators and Representative: Capitol Hill 800-839-5276

or WRITE them - http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/

The U.S. Congress will meet in joint session and count the electoral votes on Jan.6. Ask them to let you know that they will challenge that in writing, that it should be postponed until all disenfranchised voters are allowed to vote, all votes are counted, and questionable precincts recounted by hand. Their challenge will be blocked by the Majority in Congress, but it will help create necessary public awareness and pressure.


OR



2. (per above: write Judiciary Committee website, NOT Rep. Conyers' minority site -

http://judiciary.house.gov/contact.aspx ) -



If you have Republican contacts, inform them matter of factly. Quote Conyers' press releases/letters. Breathe deep, listen and hold your temper. If possible, persuade them to lobby their Senators and Representative. Fair elections for democracy = a non-partisan issue.



3. Keep those letters to the editor and op ed pieces pouring in. Call in to radio stations.
Here's Working Assets' link to media:
http://capwiz.com/wa/dbq/media/



OR

4. Easy petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/uselect/petition.html





-----Original Message-----
From: George A. Wojtowycz [mailto:gwojtowy@twcny.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 9:10 PM
To: Central New York For Kerry; Rapid Response Team; Gary Messenger; Howard Hoskins; Amanda Michel; Kerry Is My Hero; Kaja Snell
Subject: [RapidResponse_PA] ACTION ALERT!!! CONYERS NEEDS YOUR HELP!!!



PLEASE read the following and respond ASAP and forward to any other
Groups you know who would be interested in getting the following
accomplished.

Please take the action below to help Congressman John Conyers force
hearings on Ohio. Conyers feels he needs a million e-mails to compel
the House
Judiciary Committee to hold hearings about the 2004 election.
HERE IS THE LINK TO MAKE IT VERY EASY FOR YOU !

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/contact.html

Tell the Judiciary Committee you want hearings on Ohio!
Use your own words, or here's a sample letter :

To the House Judiciary Committee:
I am writing to urge the House Judiciary Committee to hold hearings
as
soon as possible on the irregularities of the 2004 election. I need
not remind the Judiciary Committee members that the Unites States is
a
beacon of democracy for the rest of the world. If we truly wish to
remain the embodiment of democratic values, then we must treat the
right of every citizen to vote and for their vote to count as sacred.
Ample evidence has arisen that this right was violated or undermined
for many Americans in the 2004 election. I strongly believe that
holding hearings to investigate and resolve these irregularities
would
be an act of tremendous patriotism on the part of Congress, and would
serve as a declaration that we are the world's greatest democracy not
only in word, but in deed.

ranger116@webtv.net wrote: Statistical Analysis may indicate Kerry
Win in Ohio after Re-count

ttp://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0412/S00167.htm
"
Ohio Recount Affidavit - Richard Hayes Phillips

Monday, 13 December 2004, 10:55 am
Press Release:

OHIO RECOUNT
AFFIDAVIT
December 10, 2004
From: http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/supreme.htm

I, RICHARD HAYES PHILLIPS, do swear and affirm the
following:

1. I hold a Ph.D. in geomorphology from the University
of Oregon. I am a professional hydrologist and am well
versed in standard techniques of statistical analysis,
with special expertise in spotting anomalous data. A
copy of my curriculum vita is attached to this
Affidavit as Exhibit A.

2. I have analyzed unofficial precinct level results
from the November 2, 2004 general election in nine
Ohio counties, including Cuyahoga, Franklin, Warren,
Butler, Clermont, Miami, Montgomery, Hamilton, and
Lucas. In have compared these results with those from
the November 7, 2000 general election where such data
is available. I have examined the unofficial and
official results for the November 2, 2004 election,
county by county. I have examined, in Franklin County,
data on the number of voting machines deployed in each
precinct. I have also examined United States census
data for 2000 and 2003.

3. There are numerous examples of incorrect
presidential vote tallies in certain precincts in
Cleveland, Cuyahoga County. These irregularities
include at least 16 precincts where votes intended to
be cast for Kerry were shifted to other candidates'
columns, and at least 30 precincts with inexplicably
low voter turnout, including 7.10%, 13.05%, 19.60%,
21.01%, 21.80%, 24.72%, 28.83%, 28.97%, and 29.25%,
and seven entire wards where voter turnout was
reportedly below 50%, even as low as 39.35%. Kerry won
Cleveland with 83.27% of the vote to 15.88% for Bush.
If voter turnout was really 60% of registered voters,
as seems likely based upon turnout in other major
cities of Ohio, rather than 49.89% as reported,
Kerry's margin of victory in Cleveland has been
wrongly reduced by 22,000 votes.

4. The systematic withholding of voting machines from
predominantly Democratic wards in Columbus, many of
them with high black populations, severely restricted
voter turnout in these wards and cost John Kerry
17,000 votes. I have meticulously compared election
results with the number of registered voters per
voting machine for each precinct in Columbus, and for
each ward in Franklin County. In Columbus, the median
Bush precinct had a 60.56% turnout, while the median
Kerry precinct had only a 50.78% turnout. County wide,
the 73 wards with fewer than 300 registered voters per
machine had a 62.33% turnout; 58 were in the suburbs,
and 54 were won by Bush. The 73 wards with 300 or more
registered voters per machine had a 51.99% turnout; 59
were in Columbus, and 58 were won by Kerry. In
addition, there were 68 machines not provided to
anyone, according to data provided by the Board of
Elections.

5. It has been widely reported that in Warren County,
the administrative building was locked down on
election night and no independent persons were allowed
to observe the vote count. Based upon the official
Board of Elections reports, there has been a 15.51%
increase in voter registration in eight months time,
and voter turnout was reportedly above 80% in 55
precincts. Since the 2000 election, voter registration
was reportedly up by 79.0%, 38.3%, 32.4%, 31.0%,
29.7%, and 28.4% in six townships that provided 68.75%
of Bush's margin of victory in Warren County. While
the county population has increased by 14.75% since
the 2000 census, 87 of 157 precincts had shown
declines in voter registration at other times since
the 2000 election, and yet every single precinct, 157
of 157, showed increases in voter registration since
March 2, 2004. In Butler County, there are nine
precincts and two entire townships where Kerry
received fewer votes than Gore despite a sharp
increase in voter turnout; and there are precincts
with reported increases in voter registration, since
November 7, 2000, of 177.9%, 143.5%, 69.3%, 65.5%,
64.5%, 48.2%, 43.3%, 38.8%, 36.9%, 34.3%, 34.0%, and
33.8%, compared to an increase in population of only
3.12% county wide. In Clermont County, where the
population has grown by 4.39% since the 2000 census,
voter registration was reportedly up by 85.4% and
67.6% in two precincts, and down by 49.4% in another
precinct, all in the same township; there were 23
precincts where turnout was up, but Kerry got fewer
votes than Gore. All these data are indications that
votes may have been shifted from Kerry to Bush.
According to the official results certified by the
Ohio Secretary of State, these three counties combined
provided Bush with a plurality of 132,685 votes, which
is 13,910 votes more than his statewide plurality of
118,775 votes. Given that George Bush carried these
counties by 95,575 votes in 2000, the net loss for
John Kerry could be as high as 37,000 votes.

6. It is my professional opinion that there is
compelling evidence of fraud in Miami County. Early on
election night, when 31,620 votes had been counted,
and later, when 50,235 votes had been counted, John
Kerry had exactly the same percentage, 33.92%, and the
percentage for George Bush was almost exactly the
same, dropping by 0.03%, from 65.80% to 65.77%. The
second set of returns gave Bush a margin of exactly
16,000 votes, giving cause to question the integrity
of the central counting device for the optical
scanning machines. Compared to 2000, voter turnout
increased by 20.86%, while the population increased by
only 1.38%. Voter turnout was reported at 98.55% and
94.27% in two precincts in Concord, numbers nearly
impossible to achieve. Voter turnout was reported to
have increased by 194.58% and 152.78% in two precincts
in Troy compared to the 2000 election, and by more
than 30.0% in ten other precincts. There are no data
for voter registration in 2000, so the ballots cast
offer the only meaningful comparison. Comparing the
results of the 2004 election to the results of the
2000 election, there is one precinct where the
reduction in turnout exactly matched the reduction in
votes counted for the Democratic presidential
candidate. It is my professional opinion that these
numbers are fraudulent, in that the true election
results have been altered. Given that Bush officially
carried Miami County in 2004 by 16,394 votes, and that
Bush carried Miami County in 2000 by 10,453 votes, the
net loss to John Kerry could be as high as 6,000
votes.

7. In Toledo, Lucas County, there were 50 precincts
with less than 60% reported turnout. All of them were
won overwhelmingly by John Kerry, by a margin of
better than 5 to 1 in the aggregate. There were 45
precincts with more than 80% reported turnout; 12 were
won by Bush, 33 were won by Kerry, and most were
competitive. When the precinct numbers are combined
into totals for each ward, data not provided by the
Board of Elections, a clear and unmistakable pattern
emerges. The 14 wards with the highest reported
turnout were won by John Kerry by a margin of 11 to 7
in the aggregate. The 10 wards with the lowest
reported turnout were won by John Kerry by a margin of
6 to 1 in the aggregate. It is my professional opinion
that the election in Lucas County was rigged, most
likely by altering the vote totals in each ward by a
percentage chosen for that ward, plus or minus, based
upon voting patterns in past elections. If turnout in
Toledo had been as high as that reported elsewhere in
the county, John Kerry's plurality would have been
7,000 votes larger.

8. There are still 92,672 uncounted votes in Ohio,
exclusive of any uncounted provisional ballots.
According to unofficial results provided by the Ohio
Secretary of State, there were 5,574,476 ballots cast,
and 5,481,804 votes counted, which leaves 92,672
regular ballots (1.66%) still uncounted. The official
results, now certified, do not include these ballots,
but differ from the unofficial results only in the
addition of provisional ballots and some absentee
ballots to the tally. In Montgomery and Hamilton
counties, these uncounted votes come
disproportionately from precincts that voted
overwhelmingly for John Kerry. In Montgomery County
there are 47 precincts, all of them in Dayton, where
the percentage of uncounted ballots is 4% or more.
Kerry won all 47 of these precincts, by a margin of 7
to 1 in the aggregate. County wide in Montgomery
County, the percentage of uncounted ballots was 1.70%.
In Hamilton County there are 26 precincts, 22 of them
in Cincinnati, where the percentage of uncounted
ballots is 8% or more. Kerry won all 26 of these
precincts, by a margin of 10 to 1 in the aggregate.
Altogether there are 86 precincts in Cincinnati where
the percentage of uncounted ballots is 4% or more.
Kerry won 85 of these precincts, by a margin of 5 to 1
in the aggregate. County wide in Hamilton County, the
percentage of uncounted ballots was 2.34%. Although I
have not yet had time to examine similar data for
Cleveland, Columbus, Toledo, Akron, Youngstown,
Canton, or elsewhere, it is possible that the same
pattern will emerge in these cities as well. If these
92,672 uncounted votes were cast for Kerry by a 5 to 1
margin, this would reduce the statewide margin between
the candidates by another 61,781 votes.

9. There are still provisional ballots uncounted in
Ohio. On election night the Ohio Secretary of State
reported that 5,481,804 ballots had been counted, and
155,428 provisional ballots had been issued. According
to the official results, now certified, 5,625,621
votes have now been counted, an increase of 143,817,
which represents the number of newly counted ballots.
Some of these were absentee ballots. The reported
count of provisional ballots was 79,482 for Kerry, and
61,505 for Bush. This would leave 14,441 provisional
ballots uncounted.
10. In summary, it is my professional opinion that
John Kerry's margins of victory were wrongly reduced
by 22,000 votes in Cleveland, by 17,000 votes in
Columbus, and by as many as 7,000 votes in Toledo. It
is my further professional opinion that John Kerry's
margins of defeat in Warren, Butler, and Clermont
counties were inflated by as many as 37,000 votes in
the aggregate, and in Miami County by as many as 6,000
votes. There are still 92,672 uncounted regular
ballots that, based upon the analysis set forth above
of the election results from Dayton and Cincinnati,
may be expected to break for John Kerry by an
overwhelming margin. And there are 14,441 uncounted
provisional ballots.
11. My research into the topics discussed in this
affidavit is continuing, and I reserve the right to
modify my conclusions as new information becomes
available.
TO THIS I SWEAR AND AFFIRM,
___________________________________
Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D.
"
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0412/S00167.htm
Based on the summaries in Paragraph 10, this could
indicate that John Kerry will defeat George Bush, and
thus in the United States, by a margin of about 36,000
votes.
 

Feep

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
224
0
0
the only thing I have to say to this thread is why not use the 150K for something worthwhile, rather than recounting votes that wont change the outcome.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Feep
the only thing I have to say to this thread is why not use the 150K for something worthwhile, rather than recounting votes that wont change the outcome.

First off, was it YOUR money? Nope. So nunya!
 

Feep

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
224
0
0
but why would anyone donnate money for a worthless cause like recounting votes that can't change anything

Even if the numbers show Kerry won, the electoral college has already voted

those people should donate money to a decent charity instead.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Feep
but why would anyone donnate money for a worthless cause like recounting votes that can't change anything

Even if the numbers show Kerry won, the electoral college has already voted

those people should donate money to a decent charity instead.

The electoral college meeting means absolute nothing. If Kerry is found to be the winner, then a different set of electors would cast their votes.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Feep
but why would anyone donnate money for a worthless cause like recounting votes that can't change anything

Even if the numbers show Kerry won, the electoral college has already voted

those people should donate money to a decent charity instead.

I don't think anyone is trying to reverse the decision but thanks for thinking it through. Kthanks, but I would like to have disclosed all the voting irregularities whether they were in Bush or Kerry's favor.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Feep
but why would anyone donnate money for a worthless cause like recounting votes that can't change anything

Even if the numbers show Kerry won, the electoral college has already voted

those people should donate money to a decent charity instead.

I don't think anyone is trying to reverse the decision but thanks for thinking it through. Kthanks, but I would like to have disclosed all the voting irregularities whether they were in Bush or Kerry's favor.

I just wish they'd actually COUNT every vote. Still about 30k provisional ballots note verified or counted (from Dem counties), about 95k "spoiled" ballots (mostly from Dem counties), nearly 100k "mystery" ballots that have no vote for President (you guessed it, from Dem counties). Plus the SOS of Ohio won't allow access to the poll books.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Feep
but why would anyone donnate money for a worthless cause like recounting votes that can't change anything

Even if the numbers show Kerry won, the electoral college has already voted

those people should donate money to a decent charity instead.

That's the problem. The federal election system in the USA has become a charity case. We have to donate money just to get the system to count our votes.

 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: judasmachine
does it matter? you Kerryites want to see if he was defeated fairly, you Bushites want to see if he was elected fairly. No harm, no foul.

It does matter. In a true democracy free, fair elections wouldn't require a recount.

I'm not convinced of your logic. Tell me WHY in a true democracy free, fair elections wouldn't require a recount? In a country with nearly 300 million people, there's certainly plenty of opportunity for error or fraud. It has nothing to do with whether it's a "true democracy" or not.

While I personally think it's a waste of time and money, hey, it's THEIR time and money, let them waste it. I'm all for recounts. If it does nothing else it will get at least some people to STFU and go home.

Jason
 

Feep

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
224
0
0
the votes that were never counted will be, reagardless of the recount. Its not my fault some dem in Ohio didn't properly mark his ballot. Everyone knows that there are voting irregularites that effect both parties. It will be made a huge issue to fix them before the next election. There is no reason to blow 150K to tell people what they already know.

and Darkhawk28, you're actually wrong. If you read the constitution, you will realize that the popular vote means jack shit. Once the college votes, thats the president. The only way it could be redone would be if there was some massive public outcry, like riots in the streets, and elected officials be tortured and killed.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Oh, you mean like the U.S. contributed $65 million to foment in the Ukraine -- yet here you are complaining about a measly $136,000 that someone else donated.

It isn't your money. Don't worry about it.

 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Feep
the votes that were never counted will be, reagardless of the recount. Its not my fault some dem in Ohio didn't properly mark his ballot. Everyone knows that there are voting irregularites that effect both parties. It will be made a huge issue to fix them before the next election. There is no reason to blow 150K to tell people what they already know.

and Darkhawk28, you're actually wrong. If you read the constitution, you will realize that the popular vote means jack shit. Once the college votes, thats the president. The only way it could be redone would be if there was some massive public outcry, like riots in the streets, and elected officials be tortured and killed.

You need to read our election laws again.
 

Feep

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
224
0
0
No, I think you better.

and BBond, the difference is thatthe Ukraine money was useful, this cause is meaningless
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Feep
No, I think you better.

and BBond, the difference is thatthe Ukraine money was useful, this cause is meaningless

Ensuring every vote is counted in a country that just about bills itself as the cradle of democracy is not a meaningless cause. There were gross irregularities throughout the nation and particularly in Ohio and Florida. You need to read through the thread before you jump in and make irresponsible, uninformed comments. Oh, but I forgot, you admitted you're too lazy to type a search term into Google. A non-reader no doubt.

 

Feep

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
224
0
0
gee, forgive me for not wanting to read the previous 360 posts. I made an informed comment on what I read.

And not searching for that in the other thead was to make a statement that Zebo was incapable of supporting his own argument. If you look in that thread you wil see that I have provided the info, and that it doesnt help his point at all. Just another liberal throwing out the name of a document and claiming that it supports his point
 

Feep

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
224
0
0
just another damn liberal accusing me off stuff without providing an example of something I've done
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
**Breaking News**

Ohio Officials Defend Electronic Voting

Recount almost completed

.... With recount results reported in 86 of 88 counties Tuesday, President Bush (news - web sites) picked up 438 votes and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) got an extra 680, narrowing Bush's 119,000-vote lead by 242 votes, according to an Associated Press survey of the counties.

Neither the Bush nor Kerry campaigns expect the recount to change the outcome.

Seven Ohio counties used electronic systems on Election Day, and Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, said those counties did a good job. "By and large, electronic voting went well in Ohio," he said.

But Kerry's concession hasn't deterred critics who feel that alleged voting problems in Ohio called the outcome into question. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) and the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy have accused the Bush campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

An AP review of electronic voting found few reports of widespread problems. Elections officials of both parties were confident the election was fair and done properly. .....
**Film at Eleven**
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
**Breaking News**

Ohio Officials Defend Electronic Voting

Recount almost completed

.... With recount results reported in 86 of 88 counties Tuesday, President Bush (news - web sites) picked up 438 votes and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) got an extra 680, narrowing Bush's 119,000-vote lead by 242 votes, according to an Associated Press survey of the counties.

Neither the Bush nor Kerry campaigns expect the recount to change the outcome.

Seven Ohio counties used electronic systems on Election Day, and Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, said those counties did a good job. "By and large, electronic voting went well in Ohio," he said.

But Kerry's concession hasn't deterred critics who feel that alleged voting problems in Ohio called the outcome into question. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) and the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy have accused the Bush campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

An AP review of electronic voting found few reports of widespread problems. Elections officials of both parties were confident the election was fair and done properly. .....
**Film at Eleven**

Dude, they only counted 3% of the ballots... sheesh. Any anamolies found were claimed to be "machine malfunctions".... uh huh.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: burnedout
**Breaking News**

Ohio Officials Defend Electronic Voting

Recount almost completed

.... With recount results reported in 86 of 88 counties Tuesday, President Bush (news - web sites) picked up 438 votes and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) got an extra 680, narrowing Bush's 119,000-vote lead by 242 votes, according to an Associated Press survey of the counties.

Neither the Bush nor Kerry campaigns expect the recount to change the outcome.

Seven Ohio counties used electronic systems on Election Day, and Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, said those counties did a good job. "By and large, electronic voting went well in Ohio," he said.

But Kerry's concession hasn't deterred critics who feel that alleged voting problems in Ohio called the outcome into question. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) and the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy have accused the Bush campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

An AP review of electronic voting found few reports of widespread problems. Elections officials of both parties were confident the election was fair and done properly. .....
**Film at Eleven**

Dude, they only counted 3% of the ballots... sheesh. Any anamolies found were claimed to be "machine malfunctions".... uh huh.

Jesse. That you?
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: burnedout
**Breaking News**

Ohio Officials Defend Electronic Voting

Recount almost completed

.... With recount results reported in 86 of 88 counties Tuesday, President Bush (news - web sites) picked up 438 votes and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) got an extra 680, narrowing Bush's 119,000-vote lead by 242 votes, according to an Associated Press survey of the counties.

Neither the Bush nor Kerry campaigns expect the recount to change the outcome.

Seven Ohio counties used electronic systems on Election Day, and Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, said those counties did a good job. "By and large, electronic voting went well in Ohio," he said.

But Kerry's concession hasn't deterred critics who feel that alleged voting problems in Ohio called the outcome into question. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) and the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy have accused the Bush campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

An AP review of electronic voting found few reports of widespread problems. Elections officials of both parties were confident the election was fair and done properly. .....
**Film at Eleven**

Dude, they only counted 3% of the ballots... sheesh. Any anamolies found were claimed to be "machine malfunctions".... uh huh.

Jesse. That you?

Adolf? That YOU?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: burnedout
**Breaking News**

Ohio Officials Defend Electronic Voting

Recount almost completed

.... With recount results reported in 86 of 88 counties Tuesday, President Bush (news - web sites) picked up 438 votes and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) got an extra 680, narrowing Bush's 119,000-vote lead by 242 votes, according to an Associated Press survey of the counties.

Neither the Bush nor Kerry campaigns expect the recount to change the outcome.

Seven Ohio counties used electronic systems on Election Day, and Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, said those counties did a good job. "By and large, electronic voting went well in Ohio," he said.

But Kerry's concession hasn't deterred critics who feel that alleged voting problems in Ohio called the outcome into question. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) and the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy have accused the Bush campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

An AP review of electronic voting found few reports of widespread problems. Elections officials of both parties were confident the election was fair and done properly. .....
**Film at Eleven**

Dude, they only counted 3% of the ballots... sheesh. Any anamolies found were claimed to be "machine malfunctions".... uh huh.

Jesse. That you?

Adolf? That YOU?
Awww. Getting a little upset that your conspiracy theories have no foundation in reality?

Hey, Pennsylvania was even closer than Ohio. Don't you think the Democrats would want to check into that too? After all, this isn't about actually oevrturning the election results, but fixing any problems inherent in the voting process. Isn't that right? ;)
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: burnedout
**Breaking News**

Ohio Officials Defend Electronic Voting

Recount almost completed

.... With recount results reported in 86 of 88 counties Tuesday, President Bush (news - web sites) picked up 438 votes and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) got an extra 680, narrowing Bush's 119,000-vote lead by 242 votes, according to an Associated Press survey of the counties.

Neither the Bush nor Kerry campaigns expect the recount to change the outcome.

Seven Ohio counties used electronic systems on Election Day, and Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, said those counties did a good job. "By and large, electronic voting went well in Ohio," he said.

But Kerry's concession hasn't deterred critics who feel that alleged voting problems in Ohio called the outcome into question. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) and the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy have accused the Bush campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

An AP review of electronic voting found few reports of widespread problems. Elections officials of both parties were confident the election was fair and done properly. .....
**Film at Eleven**

Dude, they only counted 3% of the ballots... sheesh. Any anamolies found were claimed to be "machine malfunctions".... uh huh.

Jesse. That you?

Adolf? That YOU?
Awww. Getting a little upset that your conspiracy theories have no foundation in reality?

Hey, Pennsylvania was even closer than Ohio. Don't you think the Democrats would want to check into that too? After all, this isn't about actually oevrturning the election results, but fixing any problems inherent in the voting process. Isn't that right? ;)

I'd be lying if I said I didn't care if it overturned the election... but at the very least, it's a good thing to expose flaws in our election system.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Ohio electoral fight becomes 'biggest deal since Selma' as GOP stonewalls

By Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld, and Harvey Wasserman, FreePress.org

COLUMBUS -- As Republican officials stonewall subpoenas and subvert the recount process, Rev. Jesse Jackson has pronounced Ohio's vote fraud fiasco "the biggest deal since Selma" and has called for a national rally at "the scene of the crime" in Columbus January 3.

Another major national demonstration will follow in Washington on January 6, as Congress evaluates the Electoral College. Should at least one US Representative and one Senator challenge the electors' votes, a Constitutional crisis could ensue.

Meanwhile, volunteer attorneys have poured into Columbus from around the US to help investigate the bitterly contested presidential vote that has allegedly given George W. Bush Ohio's electoral votes and thus a second term. A lawsuit filed at the Ohio Supreme Court charges that a fair vote count would give the state and the presidency to John Kerry rather than Bush.

On December 21, notice of depositions were sent to President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell to appear and give testimony regarding the legal challenge of Ohio's elections results in the case Moss v Bush et al.

But Republican Blackwell's attorney at the Secretary of State?s office told the attorneys issuing the notice of deposition and subpoena that Blackwell will not testify under oath. The Republican-controlled Attorney General's office has labeled any attempt to put Blackwell under oath, "harassment." Blackwell supervised the November 2 vote in Ohio at the same time he served as co-chair of the state's Bush-Cheney campaign.

However, some counties like Clarmont have agreed to cooperate with the attorneys in the election challenge. On December 22, a team of attorneys descended upon the Clarmont County Board of Elections between 8:30-10:30am to pour over election day records.

In a December 21 conference call with activists from the around the US, Jackson said he has urged Senators Kerry (D-MA) and Hillary Clinton (D-NY) to stand with US Representatives who intend to challenge the Electoral College's expected approval of George W. Bush for a second term. A challenge by US Representatives in 2000 failed because no Senators would join their motion.

Jackson says this year will be different, urging election protection activists to stay focused over the holiday season. "We can't let [the Republicans] get away with this, he told the conference call. "Do not underestimate the outrage of the people. We are a legitimate force for democracy, here and around the world."

"We will count every vote," he said, and make sure "every vote counts."

Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) and other members of the Congressional Black Caucus have strongly questioned Bush's purported victory, pointing out that more than half the votes cast in Ohio and the nation were recorded on electronic voting machines owned by Republicans, with no audit trail.

Conyers recently conducted hearings at Columbus City Hall to take testimony from Ohioans who were deprived their right to vote. Another public hearing in Mahoning Valley, at the Warren Heights and Trumball Library, documented "thousands of complaints of voting irregularities" that helped throw the vote count to Bush. Election observers have testified under oath that more than a dozen voting machines in Mahoning County regularly switched Kerry votes to Bush votes while voters watched in amazement. Some 580 more absentee voters were certified than were identified by election board officials. As in Franklin and other counties, there were also strategic machine shortages in largely Democratic precincts. The November vote, said one observer, was "the crime of the century."

As dozens of volunteer attorneys pour into the state to help with the recount, Blackwell's stonewall has prompted widespread suspicion about what the Republicans are hiding.

On Monday the expanded legal team issued subpoenas to top election officials in 10 counties where vote-count fraud is suspected.

The rapid filing of subpoenas, the first step in interviewing people under oath, provoked the shrill rejection from Blackwell. Though Blackwell is a state constitutional officer, his business office is in a private building, where protesters -- including former California Congressman Dan Hamburg---have been arrested without apparent provocation.

?They huffed and they puffed, trying to bully people around,? said attorney Peter Pectarsky, a key member of the election challenge legal team. ?Now we?re fighting over discovery. We served 10 depositions. The attorney general blew a gasket. They filed a motion to stop it? We will file our response.?

This past Friday, attorneys refiled their election challenge suit, a day after state Supreme Court dismissed it on a technicality. The challengers are trying to get a meaningful recount before the January 6 Congressional vote, while Blackwell's GOP has done all it can to stall.

The election challenge lawsuit claims that statewide vote patterns reveal vote count fraud on a scale that incorrectly awarded the state?s majority ? and the presidency ? to George Bush. They are using the litigation process to document that fraud.

?Maybe this (the explanation of the Ohio vote) is much closer to the surface than anybody thinks,? said Pete Pectarsky, a lead challenge attorney. ?It doesn?t add up. If everything was above board, why are they hiding everything? They could bury people in the details? Okay, look at these records. Look at those.?

The election challenge suit was filed Dec. 17. Blackwell, the Bush-Cheney campaign, and Ohio?s Republican electors have 10 days to respond. Then, according to court procedural rules, each side has 20 days to do discovery ? or additional evidence gathering, with those bringing the suit going first. With January 6 being the date Congress accepts the Electoral College vote, and January 20 being the inauguration, the GOP seems determined to make the recount drag on as long as possible.

?We have stuff that points to big numbers,? Pectarsky said, referring to votes that should have been counted for John Kerry. ?What we need now is (someone saying) ?We did it. Here?s how. Don?t take my word. Here?s the evidence.??

Tuesday, December 22 is the starting point for Pectarsky's negotiations with election officials from 10 counties as to when they can be deposed. They will be asked a wide range of questions to uncover answers explaining the presence of what are, at the least, voting irregularities.

In the Miami County town of Concord, certified returns show that all but 10 registered voters cast ballots on Election Day. But the election challenge team has already identified more than 10 registered Concord citizens who did not vote, an incongruity that points to election fraud.

In Trumbull County, citizens using electronic machines saw their vote for Kerry register as a vote for Bush. Additional hearings in Trumbull and other counties are adding to the litany of fraud and theft.

In the meantime, among the attorneys who have come at their own expense to join Ohio's presidential election challenge:


Bonnie McFadden, formerly a deputy public defender, law professor from both the University of New Guinea and the University of Hawaii, and director of the Cambodia Defenders Project in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, currently resides in Maui. Bonnie believes that Conyers? Committee hearings have provided clear evidence of illegal election practices. ?Democracy cannot survive without honest elections. The Ohio election fraud lawsuits are about saving our democratic form of government. There is nothing more important than that.?

Karen Peterson, an attorney who worked for more than a decade in legal services specializing in public benefits, consumer and family law and was a professor at both Cornell and the University of Minnesota law schools, is volunteering in Ohio because she believes that it is critically important that election irregularities are exposed to the light of day. ?We will lose our democracy unless we are willing to fight for it. If we allow voter suppression and dirty tricks to go uncovered and unpunished, we should not be surprised if these tactics become more virulent in future elections.?

Lillian Ritt, formerly a research attorney working for the San Diego Superior Court and the 4th DCA Division 1 for more than twenty years, and part of the team researching election law for Al Gore, is in Ohio because she believes voting is critical to our democracy. ?Voting has to be done openly and without any possibility of machine error and/or tampering. The problems in Ohio threaten this world, not just the United States. If they are not solved, then I consider this to be another stolen election by Bush without the courage of the Ukraine people.?

Steve Chaffin, an attorney in Ohio for twenty-four years, has worked in many ways to provide for those who have needed legal assistance and not been able to afford it. He has worked with those who are facing rising costs of health care and other quality of life issues. His interests and work have been to help those who are disenfranchised. Steve?s latest focus is on election and political issues. Volunteering for this legal battle is just one more way in which he is helping our country.

Judy McCann, a civil rights attorney from Santa Rosa, California, left for Ohio with one day?s notice promising her children she would be home for Christmas, even if it meant she would be on a plane back to help in Ohio on December, 26th. Judy expressed her concern for the integrity of the voting process. She spent Election Day in Florida monitoring the vote, learning first hand that our votes may be cast but not accurately counted. Judy has been asked by the legal team to take depositions and to travel to counties to collect the evidence of voting irregularities.

Melanie Braithwaite, an attorney in Columbus, Ohio, wants to volunteer for this election contest because of her concern for her children and grandchildren. ?To me free expression and exchange of ideas, and the right to vote in free and fair elections are paramount moral and civic values to be protected at all costs. If it costs me some time and inconvenience to volunteer in this effort, then so be it. It is the price I pay to be an American citizen. I personally witnessed a moral outrage on election day. I am peculiarly in a position to take this one on, as I have personally nothing left to lose.?

As the team of election protection attorneys grows alongside the grassroots demand for a fair vote count in Ohio and around the nation, the likelihood of an unprecedented Constitutional confrontation beginning January 6 continues to escalate.

Stay Tuned!