Reasons why anyone should get married

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: JS80
The ONLY technical reason for marriage is children and estate protection.

Marriage isn't right for everyone, never said it was.

I'm just giving the technical reason. I could care less who gets married.

Like Nik said, there is no logical reason for a piece of paper that says you're married. It's to have children and protect your estate. Without that reason it's just a social construction that detriments the male party.

As opposed to shacking up which primarily benefits the male.

I don't see how not being married would somehow give the male an advantage while getting married would make it an even playing field.

A man shacks up with a woman he gets

Steady sex, hot on the half shell
cooking, cleaning, laundry and other domestic services
half the rent, utilities and other bills, if he's really slick he can get the gal to support him while he's still in school.

The woman gets.... older

If a woman wants children and will only consider having them within a marriage, shacking up long term with anybody isn't in her best interests

It's a "problem" easily solvable by the woman.

exactly, no long term living together.. like daddy used to say "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free ?"

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Trying to articulate my thoughts on marriage here

When you're living together.. in the back of both of your minds is always the thought "I can just cut and run" , you're basing your choices on "I wanna make sure the biatch or bastard doesn't get my stuff"

Or maybe it's just that you found someone you want to spend the rest of your life with and don't need a silly piece of paper with a few signatures to prove it to yourself, to your loved one, or to anyone else. I'd prefer to live together forever than get married but that doesn't mean I'm hoarding goods. I don't care what's mine and hers. If she wants something of mine, fine take it, I couldn't give a crap because she's the woman I love and something as pedantic as material objects (like a ring and a piece of paper with a preacher's signature) mean nothing to me.

The time to marry IMHO is when you come to the understanding that without your partner, all your "stuff" is just a pile of garbage.

So if I'm not materialistic, I should get married? Uh, no. I won't get married BECAUSE I'm not materialistic. For exactly that reason! It's just a piece of dyed pulp with ink on it! It's just a band of metal with a fucking rock attached to the top. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. In fact, a significant other holding something so silly in higher regard than my actual feelings for them is so much of an insult it's irritating just thinking about it.

There is no such thing in this house as "his stuff" or "her stuff" every $$ brought into this house is "ours". choices are made collectively with the aim of furthering our interests as a family..

Yeah, and? You can have a prenup, so "his stuff vs. her stuff" is a moot point, but that's an argument that actually supports getting married.

When they cremate me Nik, when my ashes are thrown into the wind, my stuff won't mean anything, the love I shared, the lives I touched, those are the things that mean something.

My husband is my half my heart, I cannot fathom life without him.

Good! I'm glad! That's how it should be. Did your little piece of paper somehow validated your feelings for him or his feelings for you that were otherwise misunderstood or untrusted?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Trying to articulate my thoughts on marriage here

When you're living together.. in the back of both of your minds is always the thought "I can just cut and run" , you're basing your choices on "I wanna make sure the biatch or bastard doesn't get my stuff"

Or maybe it's just that you found someone you want to spend the rest of your life with and don't need a silly piece of paper with a few signatures to prove it to yourself, to your loved one, or to anyone else. I'd prefer to live together forever than get married but that doesn't mean I'm hoarding goods. I don't care what's mine and hers. If she wants something of mine, fine take it, I couldn't give a crap because she's the woman I love and something as pedantic as material objects (like a ring and a piece of paper with a preacher's signature) mean nothing to me.

The time to marry IMHO is when you come to the understanding that without your partner, all your "stuff" is just a pile of garbage.

So if I'm not materialistic, I should get married? Uh, no. I won't get married BECAUSE I'm not materialistic. For exactly that reason! It's just a piece of dyed pulp with ink on it! It's just a band of metal with a fucking rock attached to the top. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. In fact, a significant other holding something so silly in higher regard than my actual feelings for them is so much of an insult it's irritating just thinking about it.

There is no such thing in this house as "his stuff" or "her stuff" every $$ brought into this house is "ours". choices are made collectively with the aim of furthering our interests as a family..

Yeah, and? You can have a prenup, so "his stuff vs. her stuff" is a moot point, but that's an argument that actually supports getting married.

When they cremate me Nik, when my ashes are thrown into the wind, my stuff won't mean anything, the love I shared, the lives I touched, those are the things that mean something.

My husband is my half my heart, I cannot fathom life without him.

Good! I'm glad! That's how it should be. Did your little piece of paper somehow validated your feelings for him or his feelings for you that were otherwise misunderstood or untrusted?

there's no use. probably not even debating a point anymore.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Nik, if marriage doesn't work for you that's great, don't get married. Marriage works for us, we're glad we did it and it gets better every year.

I'm glad it's workign for you. Nobody's saying that marriage works 0% of the time. What we're discussing here is WHY anyone gets married. Why do couples swing? It works for some and doesn't work for others. That's not an answer to WHY they do it.

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
exactly, no long term living together.. like daddy used to say "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free ?"

Yeah, like the woman doesn't enjoy a good deep donging and doesn't get anything out of it the situation? :roll:

You describe pre-marriage so coldly. It's like you don't believe it's possible to love someone as much pre-marriage as you can post-marriage. It's like something magical happens where he's not "getting it for free" because you have a piece of paper and a legal obligation.

When are you going to post a non-shallow reason for getting married? Don't back out of the conversation with a "well it just works for us" cop-out because we're not talking about if marriage works for you or not. We're talking about WHY people get married. Why bother getting married? That is the question.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Nik, if marriage doesn't work for you that's great, don't get married. Marriage works for us, we're glad we did it and it gets better every year.

I'm glad it's workign for you. Nobody's saying that marriage works 0% of the time. What we're discussing here is WHY anyone gets married. Why do couples swing? It works for some and doesn't work for others. That's not an answer to WHY they do it.

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
exactly, no long term living together.. like daddy used to say "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free ?"

Yeah, like the woman doesn't enjoy a good deep donging and doesn't get anything out of it the situation? :roll:

You describe pre-marriage so coldly. It's like you don't believe it's possible to love someone as much pre-marriage as you can post-marriage. It's like something magical happens where he's not "getting it for free" because you have a piece of paper and a legal obligation.

When are you going to post a non-shallow reason for getting married? Don't back out of the conversation with a "well it just works for us" cop-out because we're not talking about if marriage works for you or not. We're talking about WHY people get married. Why bother getting married? That is the question.

if all a woman wants is a deep dicking Nik, she can get that in any bar room and she doesn't even need to be particularly attractive.


Why bother getting married ? because for the 1st time in a very long time, I love somebody else more than I love myself and that love lead me to make a leap based on hope and dreams of a future, rather than a bitterness based on past experiences.


Family is very important to me now in a way far deeper than when I was younger.

 

[dbk]

so i can get divorced and pay alimony

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
if all a woman wants is a deep dicking Nik, she can get that in any bar room and she doesn't even need to be particularly attractive.

Exactly, and a man doesn't need to put up with a woman's horseshit just to get laid so your argument is still bullshit.

Why bother getting married ? because for the 1st time in a very long time, I love somebody else more than I love myself.

Epic. Truely, dear. However, that still doesn't change with a marriage license. You can love someone more than you love yourself, you can love them so much you'd be willing to sacrifice your life to save theirs, blah blah fucking blah.

Do you really need a marriage license to be able to love someone that much? No. Do you need a piece of metal wrapped around your finger with a common rock fixed to the top to love someone that much? No.

Then why get married as opposed to just being together? What does marriage actually change about your relationship?

If you skip to the back of the book, the answer is "It doesn't."

Family is very important to me now in a way far deeper than when I was younger.

Cool, me too. Family becomes more and more important to me the more I lose family members. However, I consider ViperGTS to be family and I wouldn't marry him (well maybe, if he lets me drive the Mustang). My significant other is "family" to me whether there's a materialistic rock on her finger or not, whether there's a materialistic superficial wedding invitation in my mother's mailbox or not.

The only thing marriage changes is shallow, materialistic bullshit --or is there? Please enlighten us.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
if all a woman wants is a deep dicking Nik, she can get that in any bar room and she doesn't even need to be particularly attractive.

Exactly, and a man doesn't need to put up with a woman's horseshit just to get laid so your argument is still bullshit.

Why bother getting married ? because for the 1st time in a very long time, I love somebody else more than I love myself.

Epic. Truely, dear. However, that still doesn't change with a marriage license. You can love someone more than you love yourself, you can love them so much you'd be willing to sacrifice your life to save theirs, blah blah fucking blah.

Do you really need a marriage license to be able to love someone that much? No. Do you need a piece of metal wrapped around your finger with a common rock fixed to the top to love someone that much? No.

Then why get married as opposed to just being together? What does marriage actually change about your relationship?

If you skip to the back of the book, the answer is "It doesn't."

Family is very important to me now in a way far deeper than when I was younger.

Cool, me too. Family becomes more and more important to me the more I lose family members. However, I consider ViperGTS to be family and I wouldn't marry him (well maybe, if he lets me drive the Mustang). My significant other is "family" to me whether there's a materialistic rock on her finger or not, whether there's a materialistic superficial wedding invitation in my mother's mailbox or not.

The only thing marriage changes is shallow, materialistic bullshit --or is there? Please enlighten us.

Ok Nik, I'm a shallow,materialistic woman who does things for bullshit stupid reasons, have it your way.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Ok Nik, I'm a shallow,materialistic woman who does things for bullshit stupid reasons, have it your way.

It's not "my way" it's "reality."

I don't see why you're just throwing your hands up and walking away from a well developed conversation. I've never been married. You've been married a couple times. You're the expert, you tell us.

What reasons should anyone get married? So far we have the following:

1) children
2) taxes
3) ...

What other reasons do you have to add to the list? Don't take this as an insult, take it as a legitimate, heart-felt question.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Ok Nik, I'm a shallow,materialistic woman who does things for bullshit stupid reasons, have it your way.

It's not "my way" it's "reality."

I don't see why you're just throwing your hands up and walking away from a well developed conversation. I've never been married. You've been married a couple times. You're the expert, you tell us.

What reasons should anyone get married? So far we have the following:

1) children
2) taxes
3) ...

What other reasons do you have to add to the list? Don't take this as an insult, take it as a legitimate, heart-felt question.

This is not a "well developed conversation" it's an interogation with a big winded, insulting bully and I'm tired this evening and not in the mood to play.

If marriage doesn't work for you then don't marry, it's that easy.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
This is not a "well developed conversation" it's an interogation with a big winded, insulting bully and I'm tired this evening and not in the mood to play.

If marriage doesn't work for you then don't marry, it's that easy.

If you don't want to get wet, stay out of the pool. Don't come into this thread, spout off a couple of replies, and run with your tail between your legs when someone challenges you on your replies.

Sucks that you feel like you're being interrogated, though. Especially since it's just a couple words from a monitor on a computer forum on the internet.

If my evaluation of a marriage-required relationship illicit an emotional response, maybe that's something you should think about. Again, I'm not challenging your marriage or telling you that you're lying or saying that you don't love each other. We're just asking for a reason to get married. If you can't handle that simple question, you shouldn't have clicked the reply button.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
This is not a "well developed conversation" it's an interogation with a big winded, insulting bully and I'm tired this evening and not in the mood to play.

If marriage doesn't work for you then don't marry, it's that easy.

If you don't want to get wet, stay out of the pool. Don't come into this thread, spout off a couple of replies, and run with your tail between your legs when someone challenges you on your replies.

Sucks that you feel like you're being interrogated, though. Especially since it's just a couple words from a monitor on a computer forum on the internet.

If my evaluation of a marriage-required relationship illicit an emotional response, maybe that's something you should think about. Again, I'm not challenging your marriage or telling you that you're lying or saying that you don't love each other. We're just asking for a reason to get married. If you can't handle that simple question, you shouldn't have clicked the reply button.

lol man you're ruthless. love your style. sorry gb. hah.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
This is not a "well developed conversation" it's an interogation with a big winded, insulting bully and I'm tired this evening and not in the mood to play.

If marriage doesn't work for you then don't marry, it's that easy.

If you don't want to get wet, stay out of the pool. Don't come into this thread, spout off a couple of replies, and run with your tail between your legs when someone challenges you on your replies.

Sucks that you feel like you're being interrogated, though. Especially since it's just a couple words from a monitor on a computer forum on the internet.

If my evaluation of a marriage-required relationship illicit an emotional response, maybe that's something you should think about. Again, I'm not challenging your marriage or telling you that you're lying or saying that you don't love each other. We're just asking for a reason to get married. If you can't handle that simple question, you shouldn't have clicked the reply button.

I've given you answers to the best of my ability, they're just not the answers you want to hear.

You don't believe my reasons? fine, you think me shallow? gold digging? materalistic ? fine, have it your way, I don't care what you think of me Nik.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
I've given you answers to the best of my ability, they're just not the answers you want to hear.

You don't believe my reasons? fine, you think me shallow? gold digging? materalistic ? fine, have it your way, I don't care what you think of me Nik.

I really do hate that you're taking my posts personally. I'm not saying that YOU are shallow. I'm not pointing fingers at YOU specifically at all.

Just like people giving reasons in the beginning of this thread and others saying hey wait a minute that's not a good reason to get married, I'm doing the same.

Just because someone disagrees with you and would like to hash out the logistics of the conversation doesn't mean they're personally attacking you. Sheesh :roll:

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
I've given you answers to the best of my ability, they're just not the answers you want to hear.

You don't believe my reasons? fine, you think me shallow? gold digging? materalistic ? fine, have it your way, I don't care what you think of me Nik.

I really do hate that you're taking my posts personally. I'm not saying that YOU are shallow. I'm not pointing fingers at YOU specifically at all.

Just like people giving reasons in the beginning of this thread and others saying hey wait a minute that's not a good reason to get married, I'm doing the same.

Just because someone disagrees with you and would like to hash out the logistics of the conversation doesn't mean they're personally attacking you. Sheesh :roll:

You are in fact addressing me, you're not talking to the air here..and I'm finding your tone to be abrasive and confrontational,needlessly so.

I gave you my reasons for marrying, those reasons aren't good enough for you? fine, it's just like Burger King Nik, have it your way.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
You are in fact addressing me, you're not talking to the air here..and I'm finding your tone to be abrasive and confrontational,needlessly so.

I gave you my reasons for marrying, those reasons aren't good enough for you? fine, it's just like Burger King Nik, have it your way.

Well, whatever, take my posts however you see fit. Oh noes, somebody dared to refute my post, they must be personally attacking me!!!1!one!!

You keep saying "have it your way" but it's not my way it's simply a logical conclusion. I keep asking you what marriage changes and you keep refusing to answer the question.

Interesting that you're pointing out tone when you're simply reading text on the internet. Again, you read too much into things. You think too much. Don't give me shit about being abrasive and confrontational, like you've never been needlessly confrontational and abrasive to members here :roll: Don't even TRY pulling that bullshit. You know you like it, too. Otherwise you wouldn't keep replying.

If you don't want to contribute to the conversation, don't reply. If you're just going to bitch about my posts, PM me instead of derailing the thread. Or, you know, continue to contribute along with everyone else in this conversation. Like I said, if you can't handle the conversation don't join it. If you join the conversation, be prepared to defend your point of view. Heated discussion isn't new to these forums and neither are you. Even if you DIDN'T know full well that this topic with this number of replies was going to end up in a "spirited debate," actually reading the posts before clicking reply should have clued you in that you may end up having people question your stance. It's not a personal attack, it's just a fucking question. You believe X. Why do you believe so?

Now please, for the umpteenth time, what real reasons do people have to get married?

So far, we have children and taxes.

If you've already said your peace, great. If you don't have anything else related to the conversation at hand to add, don't click reply.

 

[CKent]

There are none for men. For parasites (eg. 'women') it is obviously necessary to have a host.

 

[HopJokey]

Hey it is interesting what Nik is saying here.

Can a relationship exist exactly like a "marriage" would (family and all, i.e. Geekbabe's setup) without ACTUALLY getting married?

 

[alkemyst]

Personally I think marriage has no purpose today. Women are no longer property and all marriage does is usually set up at least one of the parties in it for a financial parasite for life should things not work out right. In today's world, the woman can easily be the real breadwinner in a household.

It's fun to play fairy tale and do the ceremony, but one can do that and simply make is a proclaimation of two people's love for each other and leave it at that.

My current wife would still be just a girlfriend if the whole H1B visa thing wasn't so fucked up. It's not that I'd love her any less, it's just that personally I think I'd probably be better to her at times when I am not thinking that my answer could set me up for a clusterfuck of legal issues.

If you are doing better than your spouse alimony is going to happen at splitsville if the other person gets even a monkey for an attorney. Alimony never fucking ends. Today many men and women just decide to never get married again. There is a cohabitation rule now if they find a lover and move in with them, then like marriage alimony would stop. However; good luck for some poor sap that is getting drained to be able to hire someone to track that down.

Personally I know of 4 guys of the top of my head (one is a coworker in my dept) that lost income over the years and cannot afford to get reassessed in court...about 1/2 their salary goes to their ex who is living in a better house, driving a better car, and travelling usually.

Meanwhile they are all making decent money (some around the $100k mark) but living paycheck to paycheck and have no real debts.

In the mortgage business, we are constantly getting applications from a guy and a girl that both are reporting income + alimony. When we ask about the cohabitation thing and the alimony ending, they always insist they are just friends making an investment.

However; if you see them they are holding hands, kissing as they walk through their new home, etc. It's not our job to police this...but that's what is happening.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
You are in fact addressing me, you're not talking to the air here..and I'm finding your tone to be abrasive and confrontational,needlessly so.

I gave you my reasons for marrying, those reasons aren't good enough for you? fine, it's just like Burger King Nik, have it your way.

Well, whatever, take my posts however you see fit. Oh noes, somebody dared to refute my post, they must be personally attacking me!!!1!one!!

You keep saying "have it your way" but it's not my way it's simply a logical conclusion. I keep asking you what marriage changes and you keep refusing to answer the question.

Interesting that you're pointing out tone when you're simply reading text on the internet. Again, you read too much into things. You think too much. Don't give me shit about being abrasive and confrontational, like you've never been needlessly confrontational and abrasive to members here :roll: Don't even TRY pulling that bullshit. You know you like it, too. Otherwise you wouldn't keep replying.

If you don't want to contribute to the conversation, don't reply. If you're just going to bitch about my posts, PM me instead of derailing the thread. Or, you know, continue to contribute along with everyone else in this conversation. Like I said, if you can't handle the conversation don't join it. If you join the conversation, be prepared to defend your point of view. Heated discussion isn't new to these forums and neither are you. Even if you DIDN'T know full well that this topic with this number of replies was going to end up in a "spirited debate," actually reading the posts before clicking reply should have clued you in that you may end up having people question your stance. It's not a personal attack, it's just a fucking question. You believe X. Why do you believe so?

Now please, for the umpteenth time, what real reasons do people have to get married?

So far, we have children and taxes.

If you've already said your peace, great. If you don't have anything else related to the conversation at hand to add, don't click reply.

I answered the question Nik, you just didn't like the answers I gave and rejected them.

Marriage for me meant giving up my escape route, no cutting and bailing, staying with this person even thru times when I don't like him very much

The love, is always there, the marriage vow is the promise that you will be there on those days when the like isn't there... and there are those days in any relationship.

This man's love changed something deep inside me, there was a shift in my core beliefs, about myself, about relationships. The marriage was a celebration, a merging of two that rendered us both better people.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Getting married made us a family, Red, me, my disabled son, our cat, the petite puma.

No matter what happens, we are a family, there's comfort in that, security in that. Nobody sitting here thinking about how fast or how cheaply they can
bail out.

Red is my family.. it's a wonderful thing, marriage isn't for everyone but it works for me.

Would you not have felt like a family without getting married?

You feel any different about renting a house vs. actually owning it?

 

[alkemyst]

Gene Simmons and Shannon Tweed have a relationship with kids and homes and are not married.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
I've given you answers to the best of my ability, they're just not the answers you want to hear.

You don't believe my reasons? fine, you think me shallow? gold digging? materalistic ? fine, have it your way, I don't care what you think of me Nik.

I really do hate that you're taking my posts personally. I'm not saying that YOU are shallow. I'm not pointing fingers at YOU specifically at all.

Just like people giving reasons in the beginning of this thread and others saying hey wait a minute that's not a good reason to get married, I'm doing the same.

Just because someone disagrees with you and would like to hash out the logistics of the conversation doesn't mean they're personally attacking you. Sheesh :roll:

You are in fact addressing me, you're not talking to the air here..and I'm finding your tone to be abrasive and confrontational,needlessly so.

i agree, he comes off a little harsh, but i can also see why he might be frustrated. Ive been married, Im divorced, I dont understand anything you *need* the "marriage" vow or piece of paper for from what youve listed. If you feel about someone how you claim to feel about Red, you shouldnt *require* that piece of paper. If your feelings for each other made you want to do that, and you have an awesome relationship, and felt like marriage would be an important part of it, ok, but I think the really great part is that you (claim to) have a wonderful relationship, not that youre married.

Too many people half-ass a relationship or a marriage. Nevermind the 50% divorce rate, there are people who stay married who arent happy together and dont really care about one another and have no business being married.

Really, if I ever got married again, it'd be to someone who wasnt in a hurry to get it done. My uncle has been living with the same woman for about 20 years. Im sure theyve had a fair share of issues, but 20 years together and theyre not married. My cousin has been with his fiance for something like 7 years (and engaged for at least 5 of them). They live together, work together, do all sorts of things together. Theyre not in a hurry to get married, as far as I can tell.

Whereas my parents would get out of their marriage in a heartbeat, except that dad knows nobody would put up with him, and mom knows she couldnt support herself well on her limited income. What a load of crap it is. Id much sooner people be happy together sans marriage than get stuck in a crappy relationship on paper.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: vi edit
You feel any different about renting a house vs. actually owning it?

Failed analogy is fail already, but no I wouldn't feel any different. I am not attached to inanimate objects.

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
I answered the question Nik, you just didn't like the answers I gave and rejected them.

It's not whether I like the answers or don't like them, it's that the things you stated aren't necessary for marriage. This thread was obviously intended to give reasons why a couple would need to get married, not why a couple would want to get married. Hell, I'm going to paint the walls in my house orange because I don't have to take the highway to work every morning. Just because I don't have to take the highway doesn't mean I have to paint my walls orange. Just because you love the man and haven't felt anything like this before doesn't mean you should get married or that marriage will work out just because you feel that way. This thread isn't about your touchy-feelies about your hubby, it's "what exactly does marriage benefit a couple as opposed to not getting married and staying together."

Marriage for me meant giving up my escape route, no cutting and bailing, staying with this person even thru times when I don't like him very much

The love, is always there, the marriage vow is the promise that you will be there on those days when the like isn't there... and there are those days in any relationship.

What's stopping a non-married couple from making the same commitment, though? What makes marriage anything more than an archaic shell of mysogenistic social control?

This man's love changed something deep inside me, there was a shift in my core beliefs, about myself, about relationships. The marriage was a celebration, a merging of two that rendered us both better people.

Yes, but can you have that celebration without getting married? Yes, you can. Can you get married without that celebration? Yes, you can. Why would a couple NEED to get married? What does getting married actually CHANGE about your relationship and WHY does it change?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Gene Simmons and Shannon Tweed have a relationship with kids and homes and are not married.

Well there you go, I've viewed Gene Simmons as a role model ever since Kiss Live was released.


Side note: Why would anyone in their right mind argue with Nik about any topic?.