Raise minimum wage?

[Craig234]

Interesting. I see a bunch of empty posts calling me stupid, but with no explanation of why. And it's because you rightwingers can't do anything but parrot economic ideology that you probably heard on CNBC/FOX.

You can spew theories all day long from the people who brought us globalism and trickle-on and even the things you rightwingers hate like the paper money and Federal Reserve. But in the real world there are people working their asses off for full time or even double full time so they can achieve a third world standard of living. The current system that allows non-living wages is a failure. In the real world, not just in some economics textbook next to a "Laffer Curve".

Oh bull.

There's not really any economics textbook with the Laffer curve, is there?

 

[Throckmorton]

Oh bull.

There's not really any economics textbook with the Laffer curve, is there?

Yep, my friend studied economics at Vanderbilt and he was big on the Laffer Curve. Laffer's son was his classmate too.

 

[Throckmorton]

BTW Craig, that cheeseburger only goes from $5 to $6 if the owner passes on the cost instead of taking out of his own fat salary.

 

[Craig234]

Yep, my friend studied economics at Vanderbilt and he was big on the Laffer Curve. Laffer's son was his classmate too.

It's so widely and justifiably discredited, it's sad to hear someone is advocating it.

I wonder if Laffer's son sought out a friendly professor.

 

[Craig234]

BTW Craig, that cheeseburger only goes from $5 to $6 if the owner passes on the cost instead of taking out of his own fat salary.

True, but to be fair, we should assume that's the case.

We're not trying to make this a 'restaurant owners are overpaid' issue (they're not).

 

[xj0hnx]

So you have no problems with children dying on the streets in this country, because they don't have access to shelter, food, or water. You must have no compassion.

Sure I have a problem with it, but limiting how much money someone can make isn't going to do anything to change it.

I think everyone knows that life is like this. However, the fact that you don't see that things could potentially be better does not show that you are a realist. It just shows that you don't care.

How do you figure I "don't see that things could potentially be better"? Telling people how much money they can make isn't going to magically produce homes, and food for the poor, to think so is delusional.

Interesting. I see a bunch of empty posts calling me stupid, but with no explanation of why. And it's because you rightwingers can't do anything but parrot economic ideology that you probably heard on CNBC/FOX.

Originally Posted by Throckmorton
Really? Because people I know who work at restaurants make about $20 after tips and I've never seen a $25 cheeseburger even including the tips...

I don't know what is more sad, that you said this in the first place, or that you need someone to explain why you're being made fun of because of it. I'll give you a hint though, tips don't cost the employer, hence they could make a thousand dollars after tips and it wouldn't effect the cost of a cheeseburger.

 

[Infohawk]

In the real world, not just in some economics textbook next to a "Laffer Curve".

You don't need the Laffer Curve to argue against minimum wage laws. It's just microeconomics 101, price ceilings and price floors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_floor There are some economists who like minimum wage laws but the majority think it's a bad idea.

If you're a smart liberal, you should allow businesses to pay market rates and then advocate that the government support poor workers directly. It makes a lot more sense to do that than to mess with supply and demand.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't know what is more sad, that you said this in the first place, or that you need someone to explain why you're being made fun of because of it. I'll give you a hint though, tips don't cost the employer, hence they could make a thousand dollars after tips and it wouldn't effect the cost of a cheeseburger.

YOU FUCKING MORON. I specifically said that the cost of the cheeseburger is not $25, INCLUDING THE TIPS.

Do you get it? COST OF CHEESEBURGER + TIPS != $25


I don't know how I can say that any more fucking simply.

I'll give YOU a hint. Learn that basic math 1st grade math!!

$10 cheeseburger + $2 tip = $12 cheeseburger. If the waiter is working 5 tables and everybody stays for 1 hour, and each person gets a $10 cheeseburger, a $2 drink, and $5 dessert, that's $17*20%*5 = $17 in tips + $3 wage = $20.

So where is the god damn $25 cheeseburger? See how it only took a 20% increase in the cost to get from $3 (a libertopian wage far below $7.25) to $20?'

Look at Craig's example.

 

[Craig234]

You don't need the Laffer Curve to argue against minimum wage laws. It's just microeconomics 101, price ceilings and price floors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_floor There are some economists who like minimum wage laws but the majority think it's a bad idea.

If you're a smart liberal, you should allow businesses to pay market rates and then advocate that the government support poor workers directly. It makes a lot more sense to do that than to mess with supply and demand.

IMO, no, 'most economists' don't think the minimum wage is a bad idea.

And the ones who do, IMO, support a bad version of our society - that's the reason, not that the minimum wage isn't good for society as liberals support.

It's a little like asking a military leader's opinion of whether we should go to war - in ways he's well informed, but in others he can have other agendas and biases.

IMO, your suggestion is not a good one. I think there is simply no reason to have people paid a pittance, and I think that having the government replace that income is politically vulnerable, all the time, to the far right who would always want to end it, to penalize those people, to put conditions, etc. There's no reason I see to oppose the minimum wage - only bad ideology.

What there are, as this thread shows as every such thread does, are many myths.

 

[Infohawk]

IMO, no, 'most economists' don't think the minimum wage is a bad idea.

Ugh... it's not opinion. There are actual surveys. What is the matter with you that you would think it's a matter of opinion? Please don't bother responding.

 

[xj0hnx]

YOU FUCKING MORON. I specifically said that the cost of the cheeseburger is not $25, INCLUDING THE TIPS.

Do you get it? COST OF CHEESEBURGER + TIPS != $25


I don't know how I can say that any more fucking simply.

cheeseburger


tips


cost of cheeseburger


tips


not


$25


I'll give YOU a hint. Learn that basic math 1st grade math!!

$10 cheeseburger + $2 tip = $12 cheeseburger.

If we could convert your fail to money we could pay off the debt tomorrow.

Let's see if we can get you up to speed here ...

Our discussions general theme is that raising minimum wage will increase prices because employers will just pass the added cost on to customers ...follow so far? Not going to fast am I? Ok good, let's continue, Outhouse said ...

"20 buck min wage would = a $25 cheeseburger.


dont you understand that?"

Meaning that the owner would have to charge $25 for cheeseburger to offset having to pay his employees $20. Follow? Then your reply was ...

"Really? Because people I know who work at restaurants make about $20 after tips and I've never seen a $25 cheeseburger even including the tips... "

Implying that this guy makes $20 an hour after tips, and cheeseburgers don't cost $25, except that the employer is probably only paying the waiter $2.13, and that $17.87 an hour isn't coming out of the employers pocket so it is not relevant to how much he has to charge for a cheeseburger. Was that slow and clear enough for you to keep up with?

 

[Craig234]

Ugh... it's not opinion. There are actual surveys. What is the matter with you that you would think it's a matter of opinion? Please don't bother responding.

Well, ignorantly, you posted twice about such polls without linking any.

From Wiki, there are such polls, and oh by the way they show my opinion correct:

[A] survey in 2006 by Robert Whaples polled PhD members of the American Economic Association. Whaples found that 37.7% of respondents supported an increase in the minimum wage, 14.3% wanted it kept at the current level, 1.3% wanted it decreased, and 46.8% wanted it completely eliminated.

Surveys of labor economists have found a sharp split on the minimum wage. Fuchs et al. (1998) polled labor economists at the top 40 research universities in the United States on a variety of questions in the summer of 1996. Their 65 respondents split exactly 50-50 when asked if the minimum wage should be increased.

So, a (small) majority support the minimum wage at the current or a higher level, while a (large) minority want to eliminate it.

And that doesn't take into account my comment about how I view economists' opinions.

How about you not reply without evidence for a change? Not all is ok, too.

 

[DCal430]

If we could convert your fail to money we could pay off the debt tomorrow.

Let's see if we can get you up to speed here ...

Our discussions general theme is that raising minimum wage will increase prices because employers will just pass the added cost on to customers ...follow so far? Not going to fast am I? Ok good, let's continue, Outhouse said ...

"20 buck min wage would = a $25 cheeseburger.


dont you understand that?"

Meaning that the owner would have to charge $25 for cheeseburger to offset having to pay his employees $20. Follow? Then your reply was ...

"Really? Because people I know who work at restaurants make about $20 after tips and I've never seen a $25 cheeseburger even including the tips... "

Implying that this guy makes $20 an hour after tips, and cheeseburgers don't cost $25, except that the employer is probably only paying the waiter $2.13, and that $17.87 an hour isn't coming out of the employers pocket so it is not relevant to how much he has to charge for a cheeseburger. Was that slow and clear enough for you to keep up with?

FYI most waiters here make at least $10 an hour before tips and burgers cost the same as they do in the rest of the country.

$20 min wage != $25 burgers, more like $5-$6 burgers.

 

[xj0hnx]

FYI most waiters here make at least $10 an hour before tips.

Bullshit.

 

[Throckmorton]

If we could convert your fail to money we could pay off the debt tomorrow.

Let's see if we can get you up to speed here ...

Our discussions general theme is that raising minimum wage will increase prices because employers will just pass the added cost on to customers ...follow so far? Not going to fast am I? Ok good, let's continue, Outhouse said ...

"20 buck min wage would = a $25 cheeseburger.


dont you understand that?"

Meaning that the owner would have to charge $25 for cheeseburger to offset having to pay his employees $20. Follow? Then your reply was ...

"Really? Because people I know who work at restaurants make about $20 after tips and I've never seen a $25 cheeseburger even including the tips... "

Implying that this guy makes $20 an hour after tips, and cheeseburgers don't cost $25, except that the employer is probably only paying the waiter $2.13, and that $17.87 an hour isn't coming out of the employers pocket so it is not relevant to how much he has to charge for a cheeseburger. Was that slow and clear enough for you to keep up with?

How can you not get it?

A guy makes $20 including tips. He serves cheeseburgers. The cheeseburgers do NOT cost $25, including the cost to the customer of tips. I SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT I WAS INCLUDING TIPS IN THE COST TO THE COSTUMER. Get it? Waiters DO make $20 an hour, and the cheeseburgers they serve do not cost $25. This is the real world we're talking about. You seem to believe that because the wage is separated into direct wages and tips, that means the tips aren't a cost to the customer. Do you really not realize how stupid that is? It's exactly the same as if there was no tipping and the employer directly gave the waiter $20. The price of the cheesburger *on the menu* would go up to reflect the cost that WOULD have been included in the tip... but the dollars stay the same.


It's basically like if you argued "if slavery were abolished the cost of cotton would be too high", then I said "we did abolish slavery and we can afford cotton" and you said "but you didn't include the cost of cotton picking". Yes I did. That's the whole god damn point of what I said. /facepalm

And I broke down to you why $20 wage doesn't mean $25 cheeseburger, and so did Craig. What don't you understand?

 

[Infohawk]

Well, ignorantly, you posted twice about such polls without linking any.

From Wiki, there are such polls, and oh by the way they show my opinion correct:



So, a (small) majority support the minimum wage at the current or a higher level, while a (large) minority want to eliminate it.

And that doesn't take into account my comment about how I view economists' opinions.

How about you not reply without evidence for a change? Not all is ok, too.

I thought you said it was a matter of opinion. I read the same article you cherry-picking jackass. You are the liberal equivalent of spidey except he's funnier than you so excuse me for not reading your inane rants.

 

[DCal430]

Bullshit.

Considering minimum wage here is $8, it isn't hard to see how they could be making $10 before tip. I know multiple people who have been waiters here, all of them made more than $10 an hour starting before any tips.

 

[xj0hnx]

Waiters DO make $20 an hour, and the cheeseburgers they serve do not cost $25. This is the real world we're talking about.

Their EMPLOYER doesn't pay them the extra $17.87, the employer that determines the cost of the cheeseburger. How much they make AFTER tips doesn't have fuck all to do with what the employer charges for a cheeseburger. If the waiter's base pay BEFORE tips was upped to $20, than the cost of the cheeseburger would go up.

 

[Throckmorton]

Considering minimum wage here is $8, it isn't hard to see how they could be making $10 before tip. I know multiple people who have been waiters here, all of them made more than $10 an hour starting before any tips.

No wonder we had that housing crisis and great recession, it's all those greedy waiters making $10 concentrating wealth.

 

[Throckmorton]

Their EMPLOYER doesn't pay them the extra $17.87, the employer that determines the cost of the cheeseburger. How much they make AFTER tips doesn't have fuck all to do with what the employer charges for a cheeseburger. If the waiter's base pay BEFORE tips was upped to $20, than the cost of the cheeseburger would go up.

This is like talking to a brick wall.

Pretend there are no tips.

The waiter makes the same $20.

The cost of the cheeseburger *on the menu* goes up by 20% to reflect the tip integration.

The customer pays the exact same amount he would have in the previous scenario, 120% the original listed cheeseburger price.

In the example I gave earlier, I said the cheeseburger was $10 + $2 tip. With this new integrated tipping, the cheeseburger is $12.

See how that works? $10 + $2 = $12. Now do you recognize that in the real world, waiters do make $20 and cheeseburgers cost $12? Where's the rampant cheeseburger inflation? Do you still believe $20 is too much to pay an unskilled worker? Are you hanging on to the belief that a living wage makes goods too expensive even though the real world says otherwise?

 

[xj0hnx]

Considering minimum wage here is $8, it isn't hard to see how they could be making $10 before tip. I know multiple people who have been waiters here, all of them made more than $10 an hour starting before any tips.

You seriously need to get a clue. The federal minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, states can have a higher minimum wage, the highest tipped employee minimum wage state is Washington at $8.67, and it is a stretch to believe that even there most make more than $10.00.

 

[xj0hnx]

This is like talking to a brick wall.

Pretend there are no tips.

The waiter makes the same $20.

The cost of the cheeseburger *on the menu* goes up by 20% to reflect the tip integration.

The customer pays the exact same amount he would have in the previous scenario, 120% the original listed cheeseburger price.

In the example I gave earlier, I said the cheeseburger was $10 + $2 tip. With this new integrated tipping, the cheeseburger is $12.

See how that works? $10 + $2 = $12. Now do you recognize that in the real world, waiters do make $20 and cheeseburgers cost $12? Where's the rampant cheeseburger inflation? Do you still believe $20 is too much to pay an unskilled worker? Are you hanging on to the belief that a living wage makes goods too expensive even though the real world says otherwise?

Do you really not grasp the concept that what the waiter makes after the tips does not matter because that is not what the employer is paying so it doesn't figure into what it cost to run his business, and charge for a cheeseburger? You want to talk about the real world, yet are here making up something about "tip integration", and pretending tips don't exist.

 

[Throckmorton]

Do you really not grasp the concept that what the waiter makes after the tips does not matter because that is not what the employer is paying so it doesn't figure into what it cost to run his business, and charge for a cheeseburger? You want to talk about the real world, yet are here making up something about "tip integration", and pretending tips don't exist.

Jesus H Christ.

The customer pays $12 for a $10 burger. The $2 is the tip. It's exactly the same as if the owner directly paid the water a higher wage and banned tips from his restaurant.

The Customer.

Pays.

$12.

FOR.

A. $10. BURGER.

INCLUDING.

TIP.

What will it take for you to understand that waiters in the real world make $20 and that the real price that the customer sees is NOT anywhere close to $25?


I'll tell you exactly how you can prove this to yourself since you're apparently too dumb to understand basic addition and subtraction. Go to a regular chain restaurant like Chili's and order a cheeseburger, and ask them to include gratuity on the bill, and to tell you the cost of the cheeseburger with the gratuity.

It will be 120% the normal listed price of the cheeseburger. Following me so far?

Then ask the waiter how much he makes per hour including tips. Including the tip that was included on your cheeseburger. He will probably say $20, maybe $15, maybe $25. Then make a note in your mind "Waiters DO make $20. My cheeseburger did not cost $25." Then when you get home, write it on a sheet of paper 100 times and mail it to me.

 

[xj0hnx]

I'll tell you exactly how you can prove this to yourself since you're apparently too dumb to understand basic addition and subtraction. Go to a regular chain restaurant like Chili's and order a cheeseburger, and ask them to include gratuity on the bill, and to tell you the cost of the cheeseburger with the gratuity.

It will be 120% the normal listed price of the cheeseburger. Following me so far?

Then ask the waiter how much he makes per hour including tips. Including the tip that was included on your cheeseburger. He will probably say $20, maybe $15, maybe $25. Then make a note in your mind "Waiters DO make $20. My cheeseburger did not cost $25." Then when you get home, write it on a sheet of paper 100 times and mail it to me.

I honestly didn't think you were this fucking stupid, but I guess I was wrong. There's nothing at all wrong with my math skills, but there is definitely a disconnect between your mind and a very simple concept.

The waiter doesn't determine the cost of the cheeseburger. What the waiter makes AFTER tips doesn't determine the cost of the cheeseburger. What it cost to run the business determines the cost of the cheeseburger, part of that is what the business has to pay the waiter to server the customer, NOT what the customer decides to tip the waiter. If the customer tips the waiter $10,000 it doesn't change what the BUSINESS pays the waiter.

Either I am just getting trolled real good, or you have become completely brain dead. You should probably stop attempting to sound witty, and concentrate on thinking and reading comprehension.

 

[Throckmorton]

I honestly didn't think you were this fucking stupid, but I guess I was wrong. There's nothing at all wrong with my math skills, but there is definitely a disconnect between your mind and a very simple concept.

The waiter doesn't determine the cost of the cheeseburger. What the waiter makes AFTER tips doesn't determine the cost of the cheeseburger. What it cost to run the business determines the cost of the cheeseburger, part of that is what the business has to pay the waiter to server the customer, NOT what the customer decides to tip the waiter. If the customer tips the waiter $10,000 it doesn't change what the BUSINESS pays the waiter.

Either I am just getting trolled real good, or you have become completely brain dead. You should probably stop attempting to sound witty, and concentrate on thinking and reading comprehension.

I'm talking about the COST OF THE CHEESEBURGER TO THE CUSTOMER and I specifically said INCLUDING TIP. It's the same whether the restaurant owner says "no tips" and pays the waiter more by charging more for a burger, or if he says "I'll pay this guy less and the rest will be made up by tips". The customer doesn't see a fucking difference.

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that a waiter making the standard tips does make $20, and the cost to the customer would be the same if it was just a flat wage with no tips (like some countries). The cheeseburger might "cost" the restaurant owner more if he integrated the full wage of the waiter, but that is solely a matter of shifting part of the bill from one place to another and doesn't affect his profit.

You're such a dense idiot that you have completely missed my point, repeatedly. Waiters in the real world make $20. Cheeseburgers don't cost $25 after factoring in the contribution of the tip to the price.

I can't believe how many times I've spelled it out. How did you still not understand when I made it so instead of tips, the waiter got paid $20 directly with the gratuity integrated into the bill?

I'm typing this one more time.

Regular restaurant:
$10 cheeseburger. $2 tip. Waiter makes $20 because he collects these $2 tips from many customers. Cheeseburger costs $12. Not $25. Even if every customer tipped the poor waiter half, the cheeseburger costs the customers $11 instead.

ZERO-TIP restaurant:
$12 cheeseburger. Waiter makes $20 an hour because that's what the owner pays him. No actual difference to the restaurant owner, the customer, or the waiter.

I'm begging you. Please understand this. Please please please. You need to understand this so you can realize that unskilled waiters already make $20 and yet have not caused rampant burger inflation, a housing bubble, and a financial crisis. I eat at restaurants where I know the waiters make more than me. I know because I put the money down on the table. I don't care whether those dollars are on the bill or I do math in my head and figure out what 20% of the bill is. They're the same god damn dollars.

I'll even put it another way. You know restaurants often combine gratuity into the bill when they have a large group right? So when a restaurant combines the gratuity into the bill, does that affect the final cost of the cheeseburger to the customer if the tip is the same as he would have given? If the customer doesn't pay more, how can it possibly cost him more? When they include the gratuity are you going to say "OH NOES MY BURGER IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN IF I HAD GIVEN THE SAME 20% TIP!!!"?