Raise minimum wage?

[Cogman]

If most economist say it is fine for children to be on the streets dying from exposure and starvation because mother and father cannot afford shelter and food then I don't need those economist.

I agree. I don't need those economists either.. That is NOT what these economists are saying. They are saying that government handouts to those in need are far more efficient at taking care of poverty than raising the minimum wage.

 

[Throckmorton]

Then feel free to tip your waiter up to $20/hour. Tipping gives incentives for good service. Remove it from the equation and service is terrible (e.g. England).

My point is that tipping is just transfer of part of the wages directly to the customer, and that waiters really do make $20. It's not unthinkable for unskilled workers to get $20/hr.

 

[Macamus Prime]

Do you see the flaw in your statement? If it were true, Imports are priced at what it would cost the US to produce the same product paying minimum wage. Now factor in most factory workers make over 3x minimum wage and won't work for less. Duh. America can't compete.

And what do those who "create jobs" want to do? Price things in a manner where minimum wage earners and the unemployeed can not afford them??

Unless they start thinning out the herd, you are going to have plenty of poor people getting really desperate.

Or, they can lower their prices to match what most Americans are "allowed" to make - wait, that would be a human thing. Greedy pigs don't look out for anyone other than their shit covered body.

 

[Throckmorton]

No dummy, I knew that before you posted anything. You STILL don't get that how much a waiter makes AFTER tips doesn't have shit to do with the price of the fucking cheeseburger. You haven't "shown anything" except that you can't grasp the most simple of concepts.

The customer pays part of that $20, just like he would if it was a flat untipped wage....

$10 cheeseburger + $2 tip = $12 cheeseburger.

That's a 20% increase in price to the customer to get the waiter up from a few dollars an hour to $20.

Get it? 20%. Not 200%. Not 100%.

404 $25 cheeseburger not found

 

[Throckmorton]

I agree. I don't need those economists either.. That is NOT what these economists are saying. They are saying that government handouts to those in need are far more efficient at taking care of poverty than raising the minimum wage.

But that's redistribution and socialism!

 

[xj0hnx]

The customer pays part of that $20, just like he would if it was a flat untipped wage....

$10 cheeseburger + $2 tip = $12 cheeseburger.

That's a 20% increase in price to the customer to get the waiter up from a few dollars an hour to $20.

Get it? 20%. Not 200%. Not 100%.

404 $25 cheeseburger not found

This is just wrong. The price of the cheeseburger is going up, and so is the final total including tip that the customer is going to pay.

 

[Cogman]

The customer pays part of that $20, just like he would if it was a flat untipped wage....

$10 cheeseburger + $2 tip = $12 cheeseburger.

That's a 20% increase in price to the customer to get the waiter up from a few dollars an hour to $20.

Get it? 20%. Not 200%. Not 100%.

The thing is, not every part of industry is tipped. Raise the minimum wage, and you raise the cost of living everywhere. It may not happen instantly, but it does happen. When it costs employers more to have workers the cost is pretty much directly translated into higher material costs.

A customer may already be paying for a $12 burger, however, the base price of the burger will rise with an increase of minimum wage.

There are ways in which base prices don't rise (Illegal immigrants, technology advances), however, those are already going to be employed by whatever business that is going to use them.

The other problem with raising the minimum wage is the fact that the primary minimum wage earners work in businesses that have larger impacts on low income earners (Food, construction, etc). The companies that are more unaffected by a higher minimum wage are generally not providing life essential products. The distribution of payment for higher minimum wage is targeted at the people that minimum wage earners use the most.

Doing a government welfare program, on the other hand, has the opposite impact. The burden is distributed across all industries. Not only that, but the high school kid that is living with his parents doesn't rob needed funds from the mother of 4 who is earning minimum wage as well. The funds can be distributed in a more targeted fashion.

Raising the minimum wage is just a bad idea all around. It has little/no impact on its intended recipients.

 

[Cogman]

But that's redistribution and socialism!

True. And I'm not a huge fan of redistribution without good oversight. I also don't believe that everyone should get the same. However, the socialism method of taking care of the poor is far superior than raising the minimum wage.

 

[piasabird]

I only tip if I sit down and someone waits on me providing me with a service. If I have to go to the counter to order food, no tip is warranted. The tip is a gratuity for service. Never received service at a hmburger place like McDonalds.

 

[Throckmorton]

This is just wrong. The price of the cheeseburger is going up, and so is the final total including tip that the customer is going to pay.

If we enacted a $20 minimum wage more, that waiter wouldn't be paid any more. I think most restaurants share the tips, so the cook and the bus boy are getting some of the tip too... So those restaurants with the $12 cheeseburgers ($10+$2 tip) wouldn't have to increase prices unless there are still employees making less than $20.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

If we enacted a $20 minimum wage more, that waiter wouldn't be paid any more.

True, the waiter more than likely wouldn't have a job. I'm sure the restaurant owner would look into leaning out the process to maintain needed profit margins.

 

[CycloWizard]

If we enacted a $20 minimum wage more, that waiter wouldn't be paid any more. I think most restaurants share the tips, so the cook and the bus boy are getting some of the tip too... So those restaurants with the $12 cheeseburgers ($10+$2 tip) wouldn't have to increase prices unless there are still employees making less than $20.

So you propose to legislate a solution to a non-existent problem?

 

[xj0hnx]

If we enacted a $20 minimum wage more, that waiter wouldn't be paid any more.

His employers cost would go up, so would the prices to cover it, as the difference between the waiter new wage and old wage is now being paid by the business, as opposed to a tip from the customer provided according to service.

I think most restaurants share the tips, so the cook and the bus boy are getting some of the tip too...

At best a few restaurants share tips, and very rarely does the cook get any of them. Some places require a certain percentage to be pooled and divided between wait, and bus staff, some the bussers get whatever the wait staff wants to give them. I've never worked in a restaurant that gave cooks tips as policy, only once in a while if a cook really helped a waiter out have I seen them give some to the cooks.

 

[Patranus]

People who favor minimum wage make me laugh when they bitch that jobs are shipped off shore.

 

[Infohawk]

Another thing Throckmoron doesn't seem to understand is that if wages were lower, goods and services would be lower and the poor would be able to buy more with their wages.

 

[drebo]

Another thing Throckmoron doesn't seem to understand is that if wages were lower, goods and services would be lower and the poor would be able to buy more with their wages.

The buying power of the lowest tier of earners remains constant, regardless of the direction of movement of the minimum wage. Minimum wage could be $100/hr and a minimum wage earner still wouldn't be able to buy any more than they can now.

The middle class (those who do not make minimum wage but are not "rich"), however, gets fucked in the process, as their buying power decreases as minimum wage rises.

That said, the existence of a middle class at all is a direct thwart to any type of socialist or "progressive" authoritarian government. A class of people who are able to be self-sufficient and do not need to rely on the government day-to-day in order to survive is a direct evidence to the contrary of what they believe about government and society in general...namely, that people cannot survive without the government to make decisions for them.

Under our current government leaders (republicans and democrats, both), we will see the middle class taxed into oblivion, and we will see minimum wages increase to the point where there is no longer a middle class. Sure, quality of life for these people may not be directly impacted (thanks to the massive debt the government will incur to try and keep it that way), but they will no longer be a middle class.

 

[Throckmorton]

Another thing Throckmoron doesn't seem to understand is that if wages were lower, goods and services would be lower and the poor would be able to buy more with their wages.

Really? Because right now wages are falling, and the rich are taking that money and enriching themselves. Do I need to post the income graph again?

How about this. If top salaries were lower, goods and services would be cheaper and the poor, with a bigger chunk of total income, would be able to buy more with their wages.

The problem is you only think higher wages are bad when talking about the poor.

 

[Throckmorton]

So you propose to legislate a solution to a non-existent problem?

It's not a nonexistent problem, because there are a lot of people, in the service industry, retail, etc who don't make a living wage. The $20 waiter is an example to prove that a living wage doesn't mean $25 cheeseburgers.

 

[Infohawk]

Really? Because right now wages are falling, and the rich are taking that money and enriching themselves. Do I need to post the income graph again?

How about this. If top salaries were lower, goods and services would be cheaper and the poor, with a bigger chunk of total income, would be able to buy more with their wages.

Can we just cut straight to the chase? You don't believe in the concept of supply and demand right? And you don't believe that competition drives prices down?

If you did you would recognize that businesses would pass on lower wages to consumers, especially in basics like groceries. If they didn't, a competitor would. (Wages should be falling when there is an oversupply of labor like there is right now. Again, simple supply and demand. The solution is to create more demand for labor. One way to create more demand is to lower the cost of something.)

If you want to redistribute wealth, the minimum wage is not the way to do it. Just transfer wealth directly if you think it's such a good idea.

And I don't think higher wages for bad when talking about the poor. That's just a kneejerk reaction from you because you have to justify your disagreement by characterizing me as some poor-person hater.

 

[xj0hnx]

The $20 waiter is an example to prove that a living wage doesn't mean $25 cheeseburgers.

No, he's not moron because his employer is NOT paying him $20 an hour, his employer is paying him $2.13 and the extra $17.87 is paid by the customer.

 

[Throckmorton]

No, he's not moron because his employer is NOT paying him $20 an hour, his employer is paying him $2.13 and the extra $17.87 is paid by the customer.

Not THE customer. By all the customers that give him tips. It's the same as passing on a cost to the customer, except in this case it's explicitly separated.

Customers making up the gap between $2.13 and $20 is the same as the employer paying $20 and charging more for the burger itself.

 

[Throckmorton]

Can we just cut straight to the chase? You don't believe in the concept of supply and demand right? And you don't believe that competition drives prices down?

If you did you would recognize that businesses would pass on lower wages to consumers, especially in basics like groceries. If they didn't, a competitor would. (Wages should be falling when there is an oversupply of labor like there is right now. Again, simple supply and demand. The solution is to create more demand for labor. One way to create more demand is to lower the cost of something.)

If you want to redistribute wealth, the minimum wage is not the way to do it. Just transfer wealth directly if you think it's such a good idea.

And I don't think higher wages for bad when talking about the poor. That's just a kneejerk reaction from you because you have to justify your disagreement by characterizing me as some poor-person hater.

Yes, I believe in supply and demand and competition. The problem is that you people only apply economic principles in a way that justifies non-living wages for the poorest workers.

I've never seen anyone complain that CEOs make too much and are causing inflation with their high salaries.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

It's not a nonexistent problem, because there are a lot of people, in the service industry, retail, etc who don't make a living wage.

So your solution to that problem is pay non-skilled worker the same wage as skilled/educated workers. In order to increase the non-skilled workers wages the skilled/educated will need to be paid more. This in turn will drive all cost up and more than likely cause more jobs to be lost.

 

[Throckmorton]

So your solution to that problem is pay non-skilled worker the same wage as skilled/educated workers. In order to increase the non-skilled workers wages the skilled/educated will need to be paid more. This in turn will drive all cost up and more than likely cause more jobs to be lost.

That sounds great. If everybody in the lower quintiles gets paid more with money out of the top's disproportionate share of income, everything will work out fine. No inflation because the total amount of money stays the same.

 

[Infohawk]

Yes, I believe in supply and demand and competition. The problem is that you people only apply economic principles in a way that justifies non-living wages for the poorest workers.

I've never seen anyone complain that CEOs make too much and are causing inflation with their high salaries.

Who is "you people"? I voted for Obama and I don't regret not voting for McCain/Palin. Again, stop being a kneejerk partisan, stop attacking motives, and try to look at the arguments.

I don't believe something is true or false because of how nice it makes me feel. I believe in supply and demand because it makes sense and has been observed at work in the real world. Like I've already repeated numerous times, if you want to help poor people give them aid directly. Your argument is quite childish and is akin to saying "if you don't spend tons of money on the military you don't support our troops."