Raise minimum wage?

[Throckmorton]

It will now cost 20% more to have tires put on your car.
It will now cost 20% more to have your oil changed.
It will now cost 20% more to buy a house.
It will now cost 20% more for groceries at the store.
And so on, and so on...

It takes 10 minutes to change oil. If the guy is currently making minimum wage and gets a raise to $20, that's only $2.13 more for the hour he spends working on my car.

Construction workers make over $20, at least here... no illegal Mexicans.

The small number of people who work at a grocery store compared to how many goods get sold daily makes it ridiculous to think groceries will go up anywhere close to 20%. Where else in the supply chain are people making such shitty wages? Illegal immigrant farm workers?

And so on. Stop overstating the percentage of product/service prices that wages make up.

 

[JD50]

It takes 10 minutes to change oil. If the guy is currently making minimum wage and gets a raise to $20, that's only $2.13 more for the hour he spends working on my car.

Construction workers make over $20, at least here... no illegal Mexicans.

The small number of people who work at a grocery store compared to how many goods get sold daily makes it ridiculous to think groceries will go up anywhere close to 20%. Where else in the supply chain are people making such shitty wages? Illegal immigrant farm workers?

And so on. Stop overstating the percentage of product/service prices that wages make up.

Awesome, so everyone can get a 20 percent raise and we'll all be living the good life.

 

[Throckmorton]

Awesome, so everyone can get a 20 percent raise and we'll all be living the good life.

No. Not everyone gets a 20% raise. The minimum gets increased to $20.

 

[drebo]

No. Not everyone gets a 20% raise. The minimum gets increased to $20.

Forgetting your ridiculously unrealistic and overly simplistic and mostly just flat-out wrong hypothetical cheeseburger scenario...

What happens to the people who currently make $25/hr? That's a pretty decent wage, and would make a single person solidly middle class. If the minimum is brought up to $20/hr, inflation and higher labor costs are going to drive up the prices of everything SIGNIFICANTLY. $25/hr isn't so much in that case. The once middle class person is now "barely scraping by" and the once minimum wage person is still minimum wage.

Congratuations, you have effectively destroyed the majority of the middle class while doing nothing for the person on minimum wage.

 

[drebo]

The small number of people who work at a grocery store compared to how many goods get sold daily makes it ridiculous to think groceries will go up anywhere close to 20%.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Small numbers of people work at grocery stores? Are you serious?

At any given time, the Raley's nearest me has 20-30 people working. Cashiers, courtesy clerks, stockers, the flower lady, the bookkeeper, deli and bakery staff, the purchasers, the managers, the produce people, etc, etc. Grocery items have very, very low margins already. A can of soup has something like $0.05 profit to the grocery store. Increasing the cost of labor to the level you want for that grocery store would drive prices up 100% at least. And that's only the grocery store.

Now add in all the costs for the freight companies, the warehousers, their purchasers, the distributors, the farmers, the producers, etc, etc. Now look at each of their costs...diesel now costs more, vehicle maintenance costs more, machinery maintenance costs more, etc, etc. Raising minimum wage to $20/hr would result in at least a 200% increase in food costs, once everything is said and done.

Either that, or they fire 60% of their staff and people go hungry anyway because there aren't enough people to put stock on the shelves or unload the trucks or check people out.

I don't know about your math skills, but $7.50 to $20 is less than a 200% increase... Seems to me you just fucked over the lower class AND the middle class. And that's even before we look at the massive inflation that would cause in our money supply.

 

[Throckmorton]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Small numbers of people work at grocery stores? Are you serious?

At any given time, the Raley's nearest me has 20-30 people working. Cashiers, courtesy clerks, stockers, the flower lady, the bookkeeper, the purchasers, the managers, the produce people, etc, etc. Grocery items have very, very low margins already. A can of soup has something like $0.05 profit to the grocery store. Increasing the cost of labor to the level you want for that grocery store would drive prices up 100% at least. And that's only the grocery store.

Now add in all the costs for the freight companies, the warehousers, their purchasers, the distributors, the farmers, the producers, etc, etc. Now look at each of their costs...diesel now costs more, vehicle maintenance costs more, machinery maintenance costs more, etc, etc. Raising minimum wage to $20/hr would result in at least a 200% increase in food costs, once everything is said and done.

I don't know about your math skills, but $7.50 to $20 is less than a 200% increase... Seems to me you just fucked over the lower class AND the middle class.

Yes, small numbers compared to the amount of revenue that goes through a grocery store.

How did you come to the conclusion that raising minimum wage to $20 would increase food costs by 200%? The book keeper and the manager already make more than $20. The truck drivers make more than $20. The dock workers make more than $20.

You know, most people in the oil industry make more than $20 an hour. Is that why gasoline cost me $4.89 a gallon yesterday?

The people building cars all make over $20. Are cars too expensive? Seems to me that American cars, Japanese cars, and Korean cars are all affordable. And a lot of people make a living that's good enough to support families with those jobs.



Following your chicken littleist inflation logic, no one should ever make more than slave wages! Yet you only apply the inflation argument to certain sectors of the economy and certain socioeconomic levels. Interesting.

 

[Cogman]

Yes, small numbers compared to the amount of revenue that goes through a grocery store.

How did you come to the conclusion that raising minimum wage to $20 would increase food costs by 200%? The book keeper and the manager already make more than $20. The truck drivers make more than $20. The dock workers make more than $20.

You know, most people in the oil industry make more than $20 an hour. Is that why gasoline cost me $4.89 a gallon yesterday?

The people building cars all make over $20. Are cars too expensive? Seems to me that American cars, Japanese cars, and Korean cars are all affordable. And a lot of people make a living that's good enough to support families with those jobs.



Following your chicken littleist inflation logic, no one should ever make more than slave wages! Yet you only apply the inflation argument to certain sectors of the economy and certain socioeconomic levels. Interesting.

Ummm. The problem isn't "Are there people already earning $20 per hour" the problem is "What happens when those earning $7 an hour jump up to $20 per hour".

The people that are earning $20 per hour generally have some sort of secondary education. Those earning minimum wage don't. When you move everyone's wage up to $20 per hour, things that used to be cheap become expensive. As I posted above, and you ignored, a managers only option is to either fire people or raise product prices.

The people currently earning $20 per hour get screwed because now they are earning minimum wage. They have to fight and for higher wages all of which continually drives prices everywhere.

Businesses aren't magic money machines. They can't just "Pay everyone more" and stay functioning without changing. People that earn more than minimum wage are people that are in demand. People that earn minimum wage are a dime a dozen. You get payed more for the skills you develop.

 

[matt0611]

And you prove what I said about righties who just Make Stuff Up.

Go get the percent of all wages that are minimum wage, for fun - but more importantly go find a study on how much increases in the minimum wage affect inflation.

THEN say something about the inflationary effect on an increase.

It doesn't matter what percent are minimum wage, it matters what percent are between minimum wage and 20.

Again, you fail at economics, as liberals always do.

The fact that you two are plugging numbers into a simple formula to calculate the inflation rate after you reset the minimum wage shows how ignorant of economics you are.
You have no understanding of the theory of wages, how prices are set, etc
99% of economists disagree with you, I bet even Paul Krugman is not dumb enough to advocate for a $20+ minimum wage.

You think you can legislate people into instant prosperity.
This whole thread is a microcosm for failed liberal economic understanding.

 

[Craig234]

It doesn't matter what percent are minimum wage, it matters what percent are between minimum wage and 20.

Again, you fail at economics, as liberals always do.

The fact that you two are plugging numbers into a simple formula to calculate the inflation rate after you reset the minimum wage shows how ignorant of economics you are.
You have no understanding of the theory of wages, how prices are set, etc
99% of economists disagree with you, I bet even Paul Krugman is not dumb enough to advocate for a $20+ minimum wage.

You think you can legislate people into instant prosperity.
This whole thread is a microcosm for failed liberal economic understanding.

You're an idiot, and can't even read the simple post I wrote. Beyond that, your comment about liberals is ridiculous - cite me 10 economic metrics, and compare how the country has done under presidents of each party the last century. Several years of data would have a lot of variables making it meaningless - but patterns over a century start to weed out the variables and show a very clear pattern.

Take the best test we had of 'right and left' on economics in decades, when Clinton raised the taxes on the wealthy. EVERY right-commentator I can find stuck their nexk way out to predict doom for the economy - slashed growth, big increases in unemployment, on and on with the disaster - and the opposite of what they said is what happened. But here you are, cheering the wrong side with lies.

BTW, I didn't 'advocate' for a $20 minimum wage, I pointed out errors in comments.

To actually comment on the policy for the first time, I think it's an intriguing suggestion, and I wouldn't rule it out, but think it needs to be looked at carefully and lean towards it being too high. If it were workable, I think it would likely need to have limited application - high school kids don't need to make that, and we don't want to create great incentives to hire kids over more expensive adults.

There are also regional differences in cost of living that can be looked at - $20 seems more clearly too high for poorer areas.

You are the one who needs to go read some economics, as I suggested you do on the many studies on the issue.

 

[matt0611]

You're an idiot, and can't even read the simple post I wrote. Beyond that, your comment about liberals is ridiculous - cite me 10 economic metrics, and compare how the country has done under presidents of each party the last century. Several years of data would have a lot of variables making it meaningless - but patterns over a century start to weed out the variables and show a very clear pattern.

Take the best test we had of 'right and left' on economics in decades, when Clinton raised the taxes on the wealthy. EVERY right-commentator I can find stuck their nexk way out to predict doom for the economy - slashed growth, big increases in unemployment, on and on with the disaster - and the opposite of what they said is what happened. But here you are, cheering the wrong side with lies.

BTW, I didn't 'advocate' for a $20 minimum wage, I pointed out errors in comments.

To actually comment on the policy for the first time, I think it's an intriguing suggestion, and I wouldn't rule it out, but think it needs to be looked at carefully and lean towards it being too high. If it were workable, I think it would likely need to have limited application - high school kids don't need to make that, and we don't want to create great incentives to hire kids over more expensive adults.

There are also regional differences in cost of living that can be looked at - $20 seems more clearly too high for poorer areas.

You are the one who needs to go read some economics, as I suggested you do on the many studies on the issue.

More deflection and craigfail.

$20 minimum wage? you're a fucking joke

fail on.

 

[irwincur]

"Don't you think that a working person should be paid a livable wage? I am not saying everyone should be paid enough to buy a mansion on the hill, but they should be able to afford a decent place to live. I am not saying everyone should be able to afford a Mercedes, but they should be able to afford a decent car. In my opinion, working people should be paid enough so that they can live a decent life."


NO. You get paid based on the value that you bring to the organization. If you are a low skill worker that is easily replaced, you are paid little. It is a really simple concet driven by the law of supply and demand.

As soon as someone starts to dictate what a person must be paid, you might as well just have the government take over all private sector decisions.

 

[nick1985]

You're an idiot

Your tolerance flows through you. You are what you preach....lol

 

[Throckmorton]

Ummm. The problem isn't "Are there people already earning $20 per hour" the problem is "What happens when those earning $7 an hour jump up to $20 per hour".

The people that are earning $20 per hour generally have some sort of secondary education. Those earning minimum wage don't. When you move everyone's wage up to $20 per hour, things that used to be cheap become expensive. As I posted above, and you ignored, a managers only option is to either fire people or raise product prices.

The people currently earning $20 per hour get screwed because now they are earning minimum wage. They have to fight and for higher wages all of which continually drives prices everywhere.

Businesses aren't magic money machines. They can't just "Pay everyone more" and stay functioning without changing. People that earn more than minimum wage are people that are in demand. People that earn minimum wage are a dime a dozen. You get payed more for the skills you develop.

$20 is a normal wage for a blue collar worker, even unskilled. Why is it that that doesn't cause runaway inflation, but $20 for service workers would?

 

[Mean MrMustard]

$20 is a normal wage for a blue collar worker, even unskilled. Why is it that that doesn't cause runaway inflation, but $20 for service workers would?

That's because $20 isn't the minimum. Plenty of people make below $20 to offset. If $20 becomes the minimum, guess what happens?

 

[nick1985]

If $20 becomes the minimum, guess what happens?

 

[BoberFett]

Throckmorton is a sad little worker bee who has no idea how businesses actually operate.

 

[nick1985]

Haha, Throckmorton is a sad little worker bee who has no idea how businesses actually operate.

No, he has it all figured out! We are all just stupid and obviously need to read more up on the subject so we can "get it" like he does.

 

[Infohawk]

Haha, Throckmorton is a sad little worker bee who has no idea how businesses actually operate.

I'm curious as to whether Throck has ever taken a microeconomics class in high school or college.

 

[Infohawk]

No, he has it all figured out! We are all just stupid and obviously need to read more up on the subject so we can "get it" like he does.

No, Throck is on to something. He's discovered that it makes sense for prices to be set by the government. If only a system existed where the entire economy was planned in the same way! Poor people would make more money and everybody would be richer with access to more goods and services.

 

[nick1985]

Nok, Throck is on to something. He's discovered that it makes sense for prices to be set by the government. If only a system existed where the entire economy was planned in the same way! Poor people would make more money and everybody would be richer with access to more goods and services.

Yep, paradise.

 

[Throckmorton]

That's because $20 isn't the minimum. Plenty of people make below $20 to offset. If $20 becomes the minimum, guess what happens?

The same thing that happened when the minimum became $7.25? Or when slaves were freed and had to be paid to work?

 

[Throckmorton]

Someone explain this to me.

You righwingers believe very strongly that certain people in certain industries have to make less than a living wage, or the economy fails.

So why is it that when we want to establish baseline public services for the poor, those people you believe deserve less than a living wage, you complain that it's socialism, and that those people should just get better paying jobs? But in your ideal community college microeconomics expert view, SOMEBODY will always have to fill those low wage jobs, even if one of them moves up to a better job!

Do you see the contradiction? You believe people need to make low wages, yet you don't want to help them survive?

Here's your chance. Acknowledge that if some people HAVE to be working poor for the economy to function, we should provide them with basic services like health insurance, education, public transportation, and housing. And that they shouldn't be expected pay taxes they can't afford. Since they're providing such a valuable service to society by being poor, surely you can acknowledge that and help them survive.

 

[Infohawk]

Someone explain this to me.

You righwingers believe very strongly that certain people in certain industries have to make less than a living wage, or the economy fails.

So why is it that when we want to establish baseline public services for the poor, those people you believe deserve less than a living wage, you complain that it's socialism, and that those people should just get better paying jobs? But in your ideal community college microeconomics expert view, SOMEBODY will always have to fill those low wage jobs, even if one of them moves up to a better job!

Do you see the contradiction? You believe people need to make low wages, yet you don't want to help them survive?

The economy doesn't necessarily "fail" when the government messes with prices. It just doesn't work as efficiently. And you really don't to seem to understand how supply and demand works. Assume most people get "better" jobs and there's less people willing to do menial tasks. What do you think happens to the wages of those doing menial work? They rise! The reason the market can only sustain third world wages for menial work is because there are so many thirdworlders who are willing to do it here and abroad. So no, nobody "needs" anyone to make low wages. We may need people to do some menial jobs at the moment, but there's nothing that dictates they have to be low except supply and demand.

PS It's hard to have a debate with someone who lumps everyone who doesn't agree with him into a team of "rightwingers." And I only ask if you ever taken a microeconomics class because it seems like you have some very basic misunderstandings about how economics work. There are actual empirical arguments for the proposition that minimum wage isn't THAT bad, but you aren't making them.

 

[Throckmorton]

The economy doesn't necessarily "fail" when the government messes with prices. It just doesn't work as efficiently. And you really don't to seem to understand how supply and demand works. Assume most people get "better" jobs and there's less people willing to do menial tasks. What do you think happens to the wages of those doing menial work? They rise! The reason the market can only sustain third world wages for menial work is because there are so many thirdworlders who are willing to do it here and abroad. So no, nobody "needs" anyone to make low wages. We may need people to do some menial jobs at the moment, but there's nothing that dictates they have to be low except supply and demand. PS It's hard to have a debate with someone who lumps everyone who doesn't agree with him into a team of "rightwingers."

I'm specifically arguing with the rightwingers who think that higher pay for folks at the bottom means crazy inflation. That's separate from believing that government intervention makes the economy inefficient.

BTW I refer to the far left liberals on this forum as "leftwingers".

And I only ask if you ever taken a microeconomics class because it seems like you have some very basic misunderstandings about how economics work. There are actual empirical arguments for the proposition that minimum wage isn't THAT bad, but you aren't making them.

I took AP economics in high school, not microeconomics.

I worked at a small business for 3 years, and here is what I know: They charged clients up to $150 per hour of our labor, but only paid us about $20. Decreasing that to $15 or increasing it to $25 would have very little impact on profits, but makes a huge difference for us, because we were at the very bottom of that particular system.

People in this thread are acting as though increasing a worker's wage from $7.25 to $20 increases the cost of everything that worker produces by $12.75, or that every step of the process before reaching market sees some massive cost increase, without regard for the actual number of man hours that go into production.

 

[Infohawk]

People in this thread are acting as though increasing a worker's wage from $7.25 to $20 increases the cost of everything that worker produces by $12.75, without regard for the actual number of man hours that go into production.

It might not be exactly $12.75 depending on other factors, but when you pay more for labor a business is going to have two options 1) pass on the increase to the consumer or 2) cut into your profits. Most profit margins in our economy are already pretty small, especially when you're in a business that involves cheap labor like fast-food restaurants and the like.

I'd be curious what type of small business you were working for.

(Btw microeconomics specifically covers supply and demand along with price ceilings (rent control) and price floors (minimum wage) and is a good subject to learn about. Just sayin'.)