R600 to be 80nm

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

redbox

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2005
1,021
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
... we *didn't need* you THEN and we certainly don't need your meddling now.

First of all Apoppin your wrong. You apparently did need Josh's "meddling" at the begining. He was the first that brought your apparent hipocracy to light. Without another person displaying a problem with your actions the likelyhood of your apology wasn't too great. I can understand that getting under your skin hence your posts against him.

Second of all Josh you are wrong to keep poking Apoppin with a stick. He knows he did wrong maybe he'll learn maybe he won't thats just how it is. Let it die.

In regard to the topic which by the way didn't really have anything to do with the arrival of R600. Personally I could careless about either high end card right now. The games I play at are doing fine, I'm having fun, and the experience of gaming for several monthes straight without having to dumb a good $300-$400 into graphics cards is really enjoyable. Untill a game comes by that grabs my attention enough and requires the horsepower I am very content. I realize my views aren't universal, but meh thats just how I feel about this generation. Kinda like -_- yippy *raises a small flag and waves it around*
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: redbox
Originally posted by: apoppin
... we *didn't need* you THEN and we certainly don't need your meddling now.

First of all Apoppin your wrong. You apparently did need Josh's "meddling" at the begining. He was the first that brought your apparent hipocracy to light. Without another person displaying a problem with your actions the likelyhood of your apology wasn't too great. I can understand that getting under your skin hence your posts against him.

Second of all Josh you are wrong to keep poking Apoppin with a stick. He knows he did wrong maybe he'll learn maybe he won't thats just how it is. Let it die.

In regard to the topic which by the way didn't really have anything to do with the arrival of R600. Personally I could careless about either high end card right now. The games I play at are doing fine, I'm having fun, and the experience of gaming for several monthes straight without having to dumb a good $300-$400 into graphics cards is really enjoyable. Untill a game comes by that grabs my attention enough and requires the horsepower I am very content. I realize my views aren't universal, but meh thats just how I feel about this generation. Kinda like -_- yippy *raises a small flag and waves it around*

for the *last* time ... your view of "apparent hypocrisies" does not mean it actually equals hypocrisy ...

we *both* apologized to each other ... like gentlemen do ... without either of us feeling a compelling *need* - nor was there any coercion - to mutually apologize

IF you can't understand that the only two people who ARE -have been or SHOULD be involved - are now *satisfied* and have evidently each reached a better understanding;
-well then, i can't help you either ... and partly out of respect to the other party, i will absolutely not go back into the - now moot - *issues* [period]

as to r600 being "late" and being 80 nm ... sure they are related

--if it were 65 nm - as some speculated - r600 would have a real reason to be late ;)

as it stands now, it certainly appears that ATi had some engineering issues regarding underperforming and are putting us on with a silly "cover story" that they are "waiting for the rest of the family"

 

josh6079

Diamond Member
Mar 17, 2006
3,261
0
0
finally ... josh6079 you seem to have a single-track vendetta going on
Vendetta? All I did - in a sense - was ask, "Where's the beef?"
what you still completely *miss* is that everything you are trying to *dredge up* - AGAIN - was between a single forum member and myself ... that issue is *resolved* to OUR *satisfaction*
Only to show it as an example displaying your tendency to make a big deal out of nothing. What was a "tone" became an "attack." What was a question became a "vendetta." You exaggerate things you hear to the worst. That's your problem.
we *didn't need* you THEN and we certainly don't need your meddling now.
You don't *need* to read or respond to me either, but you do.
WtF are you *involving* yourself now?
Cause I have just as much reason to as you do. Just cause you're bothered by it doesn't mean it's any less valid.
too little ... too late ... and too stupid for me to even go there again
Yet you do.
*after the fact* ... *after the resolution* --which is none of your business [anymore]
--as if it ever were.
Once again, I was already involved before there was a resolution. Not my fault if you can't read posts in order.
AFTERward, i made a *lot* of statements, disclosed personal feelings about the matter ... and continued on discussing the TOPIC .... unlike you who is stuck in the mud...
Right, you continued discussing the topic. That's why you diverted it to how R600's late and labled every possibility other than the one you believed as FUD.
--pick on something i said that is not [now] private and closed
-if you are capable of formulating a real argument
You get tired of me asking you questions that you feel unimportant and ones that don't involve me, yet you continue to ask other people "Where's the beef" when that very question is unimportant to them and when they are uninvolved with the R600. No one uninvolved with AMD/ATi knows exactly what has caused the R600 to be delayed. Even the statements we officially get are subject to being false. Therefore, continuing to ask people on this board is nothing but a trolling tantrum.

I've done, basically, the same thing with you. Asking you questions that you don't want me asking, questions that really don't "involve" me persay, but that are still reasonable questions to ask (or wonder). If I had tried concocting another delay-scenario, you'd simply refute that as a scenario not as likely as yours. Picking something of the same principal but a different subject at least let you see what it's like to constantly see questions that are nothing but irrelevant tantrums - much like your complaints about where the R600 is.

It's late. It probably won't be that great. And it's boring not having competition in the market. Deal with it. That's all we can do for now. You've learned for yourself that nVidia can make solid products, so if you do feel the need for more horsepower you shouldn't be afraid to go with them.

I'd like to see more products on the market as well, and it does get frustrating. However, similar to the feelings redbox has, I'm content with my system for the time being. Now when more games arrive, and as the times change, I'm sure I'll look for upgrades.
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,170
13
81
Originally posted by: apoppin
Finally ... josh6079 you seem to have a single-track vendetta going on

what you still completely *miss* is that everything you are trying to *dredge up* - AGAIN - was between a single forum member and myself ... that issue is *resolved* to OUR *satisfaction* ... we *didn't need* you THEN and we certainly don't need your meddling now.

WtF are you *involving* yourself now?

too little ... too late ... and too stupid for me to even go there again
*after the fact* ... *after the resolution* --which is none of your business [anymore]
--as if it ever were.

your *continuation* of this settled nonsense is pure trolling

If you don't like it when other people call you out on your behavior, then don't start in this first place. Whining afterwards that others are picking on you AFTER you started in on them isn't going to get you anywhere.

And I'm NOT just referring to dreddfunk.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: apoppin
Finally ... josh6079 you seem to have a single-track vendetta going on

what you still completely *miss* is that everything you are trying to *dredge up* - AGAIN - was between a single forum member and myself ... that issue is *resolved* to OUR *satisfaction* ... we *didn't need* you THEN and we certainly don't need your meddling now.

WtF are you *involving* yourself now?

too little ... too late ... and too stupid for me to even go there again
*after the fact* ... *after the resolution* --which is none of your business [anymore]
--as if it ever were.

your *continuation* of this settled nonsense is pure trolling

If you don't like it when other people call you out on your behavior, then don't start in this first place. Whining afterwards that others are picking on you AFTER you started in on them isn't going to get you anywhere.

And I'm NOT just referring to dreddfunk.
what *other people* ? ... just josh

and see from my PoV that IS the *difference*

--there is *only ONE* person who had an issue me but *resolved it* - rather amicably, i might add ... the others are simply bystanders ... and trolls, encouraging a forum fight

... and that is *why* i am not gonna read another one of Josh' lame arguments on this subject - because he should not be involved at all and certainly not anymore

it's the principal of it and i certainly don't expect you guys to understand that at all

i am not whining that others are picking ... i am just saying i do not have to nor will respond to anyone's base trolling

i also understand completely why fanboys would want to derail this thread with OT bickering

that is beyond obvious

edited
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,170
13
81
Originally posted by: apoppin

what *other people* ? ... just josh

and see from my PoV that IS the *difference*

--there is *only ONE* person who had an issue me but *resolved it* - rather amicably, i might add ... the others are simply bystanders ... and trolls, encouraging a forum fight

... and that is *why* i am not gonna read another one of Josh' lame arguments on this subject - because he should not be involved at all and certainly not anymore

it's the principal of it and i certainly don't expect you guys to understand that at all

i am not whining that others are picking ... i am just saying i do not have to nor will respond to anyone's base trolling

i also understand completely why fanboys would want to derail this thread with OT bickering

that is beyond obvious

edited

So you feel it's perfectly acceptable to call other people "troll" and "fanboy" simply because they have a differing viewpoint than your own? I have news for you apoppin. That is called trolling and you're the one who has been doing the majority of it in this thread.

And this is a public forum, therefore EVERYONE who reads the thread is involved. There are no bystanders. If you want to ensure that nobody intrudes on your conversation, keep it to PMs. Otherwise, anything and everything you say is open to comment.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: apoppin

what *other people* ? ... just josh

and see from my PoV that IS the *difference*

--there is *only ONE* person who had an issue me but *resolved it* - rather amicably, i might add ... the others are simply bystanders ... and trolls, encouraging a forum fight

... and that is *why* i am not gonna read another one of Josh' lame arguments on this subject - because he should not be involved at all and certainly not anymore

it's the principal of it and i certainly don't expect you guys to understand that at all

i am not whining that others are picking ... i am just saying i do not have to nor will respond to anyone's base trolling

i also understand completely why fanboys would want to derail this thread with OT bickering

that is beyond obvious

edited

So you feel it's perfectly acceptable to call other people "troll" and "fanboy" simply because they have a differing viewpoint than your own? I have news for you apoppin. That is called trolling and you're the one who has been doing the majority of it in this thread.

And this is a public forum, therefore EVERYONE who reads the thread is involved. There are no bystanders. If you want to ensure that nobody intrudes on your conversation, keep it to PMs. Otherwise, anything and everything you say is open to comment.

absolutely not!


you said it ...

and i DO understand why you - a self-admitted fanboy - would want to take this thread way off topic

feel free to comment all you want ... remembering that i also feel perfectly free to comment on your posts ... and will defend myself

in this particular case, i said it was my principle and i will not discuss that issue further as it is closed and involves one other poster.

i think you are doing all the *trolling* here ... even though it won't be discussed, you continue to pick at it as though you might somehow "prove something" ...

i *already* know what you think of me and frankly i guess i think and feel about the same about you ... that this "issue" somehow added more negative things in your own mind toward me doesn't bother me whatsoever

it is a badge of honor to be despised by a troll


 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: thefonz
apoppin totally got owned in this thread

in your mind and in the minds of the people who already pre judge

there is not a single one of us reguarly posting in video - that actually takes a 'stand' - that does not do what i am accused of ...

now let the hypocrite cast another stone



the real issue is this bogus Interview with AMD/Atis Vijay Sharma

AMD is getting *owned*

and ATi got so *owned* they are gone
 

ShadowOfMyself

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2006
4,227
2
0
Seriously guys, knock it off already... Apoppin was rude to dreddfunk, he apologized, we got over it, move on... Its not like hes the next Rollo or something... The matter to discuss here is the delay of R600, and the potential PR mistakes of AMD, not who is a troll or who insulted who
 

josh6079

Diamond Member
Mar 17, 2006
3,261
0
0
the real issue is this bogus Interview with AMD/Atis Vijay Sharma
I just still can't believe that they claimed the Xbox 360 was their first stab at DX10 when it's not really DX9 nor DX10.

That alone indicates some serious problems with AMD.
 

jim1976

Platinum Member
Aug 7, 2003
2,704
6
81
Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself
Seriously guys, knock it off already... Apoppin was rude to dreddfunk, he apologized, we got over it, move on... Its not like hes the next Rollo or something... The matter to discuss here is the delay of R600, and the potential PR mistakes of AMD, not who is a troll or who insulted who

Welcome to AT video forum :D :beer:

Grab a beer and some chips sit comfortably and enjoy the 2night's show.. :laugh:
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: josh6079
the real issue is this bogus Interview with AMD/Atis Vijay Sharma
I just still can't believe that they claimed the Xbox 360 was their first stab at DX10 when it's not really DX9 nor DX10.

That alone indicates some serious problems with AMD.

wasn't it?
:confused:


doesn't it use unified shaders and some elements of DX10?
 

imported_thefonz

Senior member
Dec 7, 2005
244
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: thefonz
apoppin totally got owned in this thread

in your mind and in the minds of the people who already pre judge

there is not a single one of us reguarly posting in video - that actually takes a 'stand' - that does not do what i am accused of ...

now let the hypocrite cast another stone




the real issue is this bogus Interview with AMD/Atis Vijay Sharma

AMD is getting *owned*

and ATi got so *owned* they are gone

edit: nvm its not worth the hassle
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
what valid arguments? you mean Josh? ... after the fact? ... or the original issue that was settled?

anyway, Josh ... here is the quote:
Vijay Sharma: Yes, Xbox360 was our first generation and we're on our second generation and you can see our lead in the drivers. This isn't the first time we're doing this. We have a lead, we have established technology, so we're very confident.

i believe he is talking about the first and 2nd gen of *Unified shaders*
 

josh6079

Diamond Member
Mar 17, 2006
3,261
0
0
wasn't it?
:confused:
Wasn't it the first DX10 GPU? No. I thought that once too, then I learned - I believe it was from BFG10K and Gstanfor - that the Xbox 360's Xenos GPU was not specific to either the DX9 or DX10's API.

As Matt2's earlier HardOCP link states:
Originally posted in: HardOCP
Bob Feldstein and Chris Evenden of ATI went out of their way to explain to me, no matter how hard I tried to convince them otherwise, that the Xbox 360 GPU is very much an original creation. While some will try to tell you that is it simply a modified DirectX 9 GPU, you might be interested to learn that the only API spec that the Xbox 360 hardware meets is its own API. That is correct, the Xbox 360 GPU only meets it own Xbox 360 API specifications. While of course some lessons learned in DX9 and upcoming DX10 were applied, the GPU of the Xbox 360 is very much its own and comparing it directly to anything in the PC world is simply ?not right? according to Mr. Feldstein. Obviously, the Xbox 360 can be thought of as a very innovative solution specifically for the Xbox and only the Xbox.
doesn't it use unified shaders and some elements of DX10?
I'm sure it does, but I don't think that using some elements of DX10 equates to being DX10.
i believe he is talking about the first and 2nd gen of *Unified shaders*
Perhaps. But his quotes say "second generation of DX10" not "second generation of unified shaders" so I'm just going off of what he said.
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
what valid arguments? you mean Josh? ... after the fact? ... or the original issue that was settled?

anyway, Josh ... here is the quote:
Vijay Sharma: Yes, Xbox360 was our first generation and we're on our second generation and you can see our lead in the drivers. This isn't the first time we're doing this. We have a lead, we have established technology, so we're very confident.

i believe he is talking about the first and 2nd gen of *Unified shaders*

No, I'm sorry, but, Vijay Sharma is busy telling porky pies.
And the other point is we are actually on our second generation of DX10.
He specifically claimed R600 would be second gen DX10. Of course he can hardly be blamed - Baumann used to ***love*** to push exactly the same line as evidence of why R600 would be the second coming of christ in the B3D forums -- he was almost as fond of it as he was of insisting that _PP & FP16 were not Dx9 compliant and somehow illegal...
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
you're right i missed that ... i got the 2nd half:
Vijay Sharma: Even before Vista we had WQHL-certification. So our driver is in great shape. And the other point is we are actually on our second generation of DX10.

PCGH: You're talking about Xbox360-GPU...

Vijay Sharma: Yes, Xbox360 was our first generation and we're on our second generation and you can see our lead in the drivers. This isn't the first time we're doing this. We have a lead, we have established technology, so we're very confident.

maybe he is referring to the 15 respins of r600 as their "2nd attempt" at DX10. :p

:D

i should work for AMD ... but it is a *hell* of a lot more interesting and easy - to point out their glaring flaws

it looks like there are 2 PR firms in the same company ... disagreeing with each other
:roll:
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
i think SHarma is referring to this:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articleprint.html?art=MTA0NQ==
The XBOX 360 uses ATI GPU technology and it is a unified architecture. Therefore ATI already has a 1st generation unified architecture GPU on the market. Obviously the XBOX 360 is ahead of desktop GPUs in terms of this technology.

ATI?s next generation desktop GPU will be a fully unified architecture. Since the XBOX 360 is ATI?s first generation unified architecture technology their next generation desktop GPU will be ATI?s 2nd generation unified architecture technology. That means ATI has taken what they learned from the XBOX 360 unified architecture and made improvements to create an even better unified architecture for the PC with their next generation desktop GPU. This also means porting games between the XBOX 360 to ATI desktop GPU hardware should be easier.

he is marketing ... he doesn't need to actually *know* anything :p

give him a break ;)

:D

and the ^*above*^ ... ati's "line" sounded great ... it sure had me fooled
... for awhile

i don't think AMD has *any* advantage

here's the "reality" from the ATi tech side:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153097
according to ATI themselves. "Xbox360 cannot run DX10, and confirmed what I said earlier about the extended functionality. The Xbox360 has unique features including memory export that can enable DX10-class functionality such as stream-out," said an ATI spokesperson. "From what we're hearing, Crysis will support DX9 with some sort of use for DX10 features. It's likely that those DX10 visuals can be replicated on the Xbox360, but it can't be properly called DX10."

There's no reason Crysis can't appear on Xbox 360 (even Crytek themselves have discussed the possibility, even if it's not in production just yet); all of its public appearances have been running on DirectX 9. With a little bit of optimization, a console port seems in reach

so ... technically it DOES have some DX10 'features' :p
 

Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
4,762
0
0
It doesnt matter how closely Xbox 360 GPU resembles a DX10 GPU. The mere fact that it uses unified shaders does not mean that it conforms to any DX10 requirements. Or DX9 for that matter.

This is why I have a very hard time believing that ATI's drivers are going to be any better than Nvidia's. Most of the people on this board claim that ATI is going to have superior drivers because of their "experience" with DX10 via Xbox 360. These are the same folks who claimed that ATI also had a head start on the actual hardware because of the Xbox 360.

As for Vijay Sharma, careful he doesnt try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Matt2
It doesnt matter how closely Xbox 360 GPU resembles a DX10 GPU. The mere fact that it uses unified shaders does not mean that it conforms to any DX10 requirements. Or DX9 for that matter.

This is why I have a very hard time believing that ATI's drivers are going to be any better than Nvidia's. Most of the people on this board claim that ATI is going to have superior drivers because of their "experience" with DX10 via Xbox 360. These are the same folks who claimed that ATI also had a head start on the actual hardware because of the Xbox 360.

As for Vijay Sharma, careful he doesnt try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

yep, that's what i just said ... i used to say ATi would have an "advantage" ... i am backing off that one now :p

and i *used* to say that ATi might have an advantage because they were praised by MS as helping to design the driver at the 'heart of Vista'

i don't mind admitting i was probably wrong

and ... the *only* thing that is DX10 in the Xbox360 - besides the required unified shaders - is memory export that can enable DX10-class functionality such as stream-out.
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
i think SHarma is referring to this:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articleprint.html?art=MTA0NQ==
The XBOX 360 uses ATI GPU technology and it is a unified architecture. Therefore ATI already has a 1st generation unified architecture GPU on the market. Obviously the XBOX 360 is ahead of desktop GPUs in terms of this technology.

ATI?s next generation desktop GPU will be a fully unified architecture. Since the XBOX 360 is ATI?s first generation unified architecture technology their next generation desktop GPU will be ATI?s 2nd generation unified architecture technology. That means ATI has taken what they learned from the XBOX 360 unified architecture and made improvements to create an even better unified architecture for the PC with their next generation desktop GPU. This also means porting games between the XBOX 360 to ATI desktop GPU hardware should be easier.

he is marketing ... he doesn't need to actually *know* anything :p

give him a break ;)

:D

and the ^*above*^ ... ati's "line" sounded great ... it sure had me fooled
... for awhile

i don't think AMD has *any* advantage

here's the "reality" from the ATi tech side:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153097
according to ATI themselves. "Xbox360 cannot run DX10, and confirmed what I said earlier about the extended functionality. The Xbox360 has unique features including memory export that can enable DX10-class functionality such as stream-out," said an ATI spokesperson. "From what we're hearing, Crysis will support DX9 with some sort of use for DX10 features. It's likely that those DX10 visuals can be replicated on the Xbox360, but it can't be properly called DX10."

There's no reason Crysis can't appear on Xbox 360 (even Crytek themselves have discussed the possibility, even if it's not in production just yet); all of its public appearances have been running on DirectX 9. With a little bit of optimization, a console port seems in reach

so ... technically it DOES have some DX10 'features' :p

Technically NV2A had some DX9 features also, does/did that make it DX9? or indicative of what we could expect from Dx9? I think not.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
have you read what i actually wrote? :p

or were you just waiting for me to post --with a pre-made answer?
:confused:

i did NOT say xbox360 was DX10

quite the *opposite*

just showing Sharma is Confused marketing PR
and *where* he got confused

there is nothing new in that interview except factual errors, speculation, AMD FUD, speculation ... and a minor announcement that r600 *can* be AGP
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
You posted while I was writing my post. Anyway, Xenos is pretty much irrelevant to PC based DX10, no matter how much ATi/AMD may wish it otherwise.