Well I dont know where you got that idea. The top of the line cards have always been 500$ for the last 4 years or so. I paid 500$ for a geforce 2 ultra back then.
Yes he actually called me a thief for having a certain opinion. Without even one instance or example of me having done anything that he considers to be the thievery. LOL
ponyo
Lifer
- Feb 14, 2002
- 19,688
- 2,811
- 126
While it's true that consumer abuse of return/warranty raises the overall cost for the consumer, it's not the reason why these cards are priced so high. Basically hardcore gamers/users are getting smaller as most average joes are happy w/ the machines they bought last 2-3 years. They have enough processing power to surf the web, email, simple office apps, and play games here and there. Consumers don't really need new computer/graphic cards. People who do/need these are hardcore gamers. So basically the hardcore gamers are providing R&D for Nvidia/ATI. Average Joes are happy with low budget cards like FX5200 and Radeon 9200 and these provide majority of revenues for Nvidia/ATI. So in effect Nvidia/ATI along with hardcore gamers are to blame for high price of top cards. Hardcore gamers demand ultra fast cards. Nvidia/ATI is only happy to oblige them as long as hardcore gamers provide the R&D neccessary to design/make these cards. It's tale of two markets and one that's increasingly becoming more common in the computer world.
So I say thank you to all you hardcore gamers that provide R&D for Nvidia/ATI. I'm sure Nvidia/ATI thanks you as well.
rbV5:
I saw you were one of ATIs consumer testers in your signature, thought you were just one of the people here who disagree with me on general principle because I buy both company's cards and try to remain impartial. (I don't pick sides)
My apologies for the mistake.
I did pull the "thief" card, because in my opinion this needs to be called what it is. Guys like Jack and Bugs come on boards like this and tell people to OC cards as much as they like and then just return them for another when they've destroyed it.
If no one points out this is wrong, other people might be inclined to do it as well. The cost is passed on to the consumers, I imagine both by the vendors and the manufacturers.
When a company's cost of doing business rises, it's prices rise as well. They don't just say :"Well no raises this year, too many slobs returned OCd video cards".
rbV5
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2000
- 12,632
- 0
- 0
When all it takes is to change a simple registry key to enable a feature packed overclocking utility in Forceware (and Det's) drivers, I have to really question the validity in that statement. My experience is that killing a card by simply overclocking is pretty rare, in fact far easier to kill a card by modding it than simply overclocking, it and that the manufacturer's "seem" to endorse it.
ATI has gone as far to bios lock the clockspeeds, but only on certain cards(for obvious reasons) while at the same time other card models, while not offering overclocking at the driver level out of the box (except XT models, which have overclocking utility out of the box) they are easily overclocked using readily available tools (even in-house ATI tools), even the locked clock cards can be overclocked using software.
IMO, overclocking a card doesn't constitute mis-use, and is in fact commonly used method of increasing performance for the enthusiast crowd and even condoned by the performance card manufacturers. I think its a debatable issue however, and the proper way to do that is to start a discussion thread rather than hijack a thread and insult the posters. It would be interesting to see how other enthusiasts feel about the issue because, in my mind, I think I do know (but I'm occasionally wrong
Dulanic
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2000
- 9,968
- 592
- 136
God you truly are a idiot... there is a reason places like Circuit City and Im sure BB have this disclaimer
For any exchange or refund, we need the original receipt or a record of the purchase in our system, and the product must be in its original condition, including the box, UPC bar code, packaging, and all accessories.
That is right... it must be in ORIGINAL condition, you overclocking it and frying it is not original condition. A video card that burns out from overclocking is NOT deffective, NOWHERE does ATi or anyone else I know of guarantee your card will overclock and be safe. You are running something outside of spec, and noone warranty's you taking a risk by running it outside of spec. And your crazy if you dont think overclocking can fry something, sure the risk is low if you go slightly beyond the the limit of the card, but if you crank the clock speed way beyond the cards limits, you can fry it, it might not always happen, and usually doesn't, but it can. Luckily for idiots they really don't have a way to find out your the one who caused it to die, but just because you can get away with it doesnt mean it is right.
Wether or not this whole arguement between these 2 people is stupid or not... this guy is a moron for the statements he makes, almost all are false. And why oh why does it not suprise me that bugs spends alot of time in the P&N forums.
rbV5
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2000
- 12,632
- 0
- 0
Thats not exactly true:
and then they go on to say:
Not only do they claim that if you use a card that supports their official overclock utility, it "ensures" it is safe, they go on to say that if you disable Overdrive, you can use "any" utility to overclock your card to reassure you (their customer) that you can use your favorite utility to overclock it and their utility won't prevent you from doing it. Not exactly discouraging the practice now is it?
Link
I don't want to get any more involved in this thread, but it's still clear you don't have auto insurance. Your premiums can and *will* go up if you file claims repeatedly, regardless of whether or not you were at fault (the assumption being that if you get into a lot of accidents, you're probably a bad driver even if they're not technically your fault). They will *not* go up if you get a speeding ticket and it gets dismissed in court, but that's not an "accident".
I may have been away for a while but I see Rollo has none of his legendary sense of humour. I never knew anyone that loved to flame as much, or turn harmless comments into an argument with so little effort. LOL
mdegner, sorry to hear about the card, that's probably the first X800 death ever.
Ever heard the saying,"If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem" Avalon?
It doesn't have anything to do with me liking or disliking insulting people.
I look at this the same way I do other societal ills.
If I saw a guy on here bragging about beating his wife or kids, I'd say it's wrong and probably insult him if he continued to brag.
If I saw a guy on here bragging about not hiring a person of color, I'd say it was wrong and probably insult him if he kept bragging.
And yes, when I see someone post they OC stuff as high as they can and then return it as defective, keep that position and ask me what I think of it, I tell them it's wrong and maybe insult them.
If you say nothing about things like this, that is your perogative. However, if nobody says anything about things like this, the behavior grows because a climate of acceptance is created.
Ever read that little story about the guy who watched the nazis start taking groups of people, but said nothing because he wasn't in their group, and then when the nazis came for him there was no one left to say anything for him?
The difference, apparently, between you and me is that when I see something that in my mind advocates stealing I consider it my responsibility as a citizen to say,"No. That is not how we do things here. Your actions impose an unnecessary cost on society". You apparently say,"Ah those wacky OCers". (or are one of them)
You'll never see me say anything negative to OCers who take responsibility for their actions and replace their own cards with money they've legally acquired.
BTW- I'm not equating this to the Holocaust, it's obviously nowhere near as big of a problem. I've seen way too many posts of people burning their cards and returning them for another to burn on these boards though.
Richdog:
I'll try to be funnier on more humorous topics.
I don't have any desire to flame anyone, just don't have any desire to read,"Dude. Be sure to OC your card to the max within the return period so you can get a free replacement!" or "It is my perogative to return stuff I break as I see fit". (not to mention: "speed limits are for pussies, I go as fast as I want!" [glad that guy is in Canada, not my neighborhood- if he ran over my kid his theories of "safe driving" wouldn't matter much to me])
I guess we differ on what should be said about things like this.
I'll try to be funnier on more humorous topics.
I don't have any desire to flame anyone, just don't have any desire to read,"Dude. Be sure to OC your card to the max within the return period so you can get a free replacement!" or "It is my perogative to return stuff I break as I see fit". (not to mention: "speed limits are for pussies, I go as fast as I want!" [glad that guy is in Canada, not my neighborhood- if he ran over my kid his theories of "safe driving" wouldn't matter much to me])
I guess we differ on what should be said about things like this.
Avalon
Diamond Member
- Jul 16, 2001
- 7,571
- 178
- 106
Rollo, you were practically insulting people on here that made only one post. I'm not talking about bugs here, and I didn't ask for your speech. There is no need to go around condemning people.
You can tell people that you feel something is wrong without tacking on insults. I know you understand this. The most that's going to do is just egg them on.
You can tell people that you feel something is wrong without tacking on insults. I know you understand this. The most that's going to do is just egg them on.
whatever man, get off your "high horse". I suppose you have money falling out your arse, so it doesn't matter for you! BUT most of use here are on budgets! If I were to spend that kinda money on a card and it gave me artifacts within an hour of use, you can bet your arse that I'd return it for another!!!
How much money a person has doesn't have anything to do with their integrity. In your example:
A. a person who doesn't have enough money to replace a card shouldn't run it out of spec/OC it
B. a person should run a card at default until satisfied it's not defective, then OC if they accept the risk
C. a person who's card that hasn't been OCd should return it within the warranty period if it artifacts, that what the warranty is really for, contrary to inexplicably popular belief
Tough concepts huh? Like "you should pay for things you break, rather than sharing the cost of your risk with others".
There's as many or more in this thread that agree with this wholeheartedly, those of you whining about your right to steal really need a dad/mentor/big brother/role model.
They need to be condemned avalon. You, me, our friends are all paying the cost of their stupidity. I work hard for my money. I don't have any for Bug's OCing experiments.
If you do, you should PayPal it to him, and save those of us who don't want to pay it.
Like I said, the story would be different if you bought BugBunnys video card, OCd it till it burned, and then tried to return it to him. They know they're stealing. If you think they need to be coddled when they brag about it, we disagree.
Avalon
Diamond Member
- Jul 16, 2001
- 7,571
- 178
- 106
Point to where I explicitly said we should coddle braggers.
I'll be happy to give bugs money to fry his card, since I can barely afford to keep my own upgraded.
Genius.
Ah, it's nice to finally know what I'd say. Thanks for informing me of myself, Rollo.
Stop twisting this. According to this entire thread, using this above quote as an example, you would say, "No. That is not how we do things here. You are a the scum of the earth. You are a miserable failure."
I would say, "No, that's not right."
You don't know anything about me.
End of story.
I'll be happy to give bugs money to fry his card, since I can barely afford to keep my own upgraded.
Genius.
Ah, it's nice to finally know what I'd say. Thanks for informing me of myself, Rollo.
Stop twisting this. According to this entire thread, using this above quote as an example, you would say, "No. That is not how we do things here. You are a the scum of the earth. You are a miserable failure."
I would say, "No, that's not right."
You don't know anything about me.
End of story.
Just to jump in here, I hate it when people make analogies that overclocking or another such activity is analogous to high crime. In this case (see bolded line above), you compare theft to murder - vehicular manslaughter.
I don't condone either act, but please don't say that the responsibility for overclocking a card and then getting it replaced when it fries is analogous to driving drunk. You can't take someone's life from lying about pushing a video card past it's spec. As a matter of fact, comparing overclocking to anything where a human life is at risk trivializes the other, much more serious act (in this case, driving drunk, which is a serious issue).
Also, isn't it at least a bit of a stretch to say that people who overclock are therefore morally bankrupt people? Does everyone who downloads mp3's and DIVX movies walk into blockbuster, steal their DVDs and shoot the employees and customers? I don't think so.
Not to sound coy here but I wouldn't buy a toga and join the cult of Rollo just yet, simply because he doesn't overclock his hardware (or if he does and it fails, he pays for it). I respect Rollo for his beliefs, no question, and I try to practise that myself, but I wouldn't consider him my moral compass just because of that. I definately think he is right in that respect, however.
In regards to ATI (and Nvidia for that matter) saying they don't condone overclocking - what the heck else are they going to say? That they strongly recommend overclocking? Of course the official stance on overclocking is that they don't endorse it - overclocking causes hardware failure (mainly by inexperienced users and extreme overclockers who don't know what "safe limits" means), which in turn costs them money. However, when ATI, Nvidia and their board partners include overclocking features in their driver suites, anyone can read between the lines enough to see that they don't exactly deny the fact that many of their customers will be overclocking.
--------------------------------
On an unrelated matter, has a high failure rate of the previous generation(s) of cards lead to the steady increase in prices of new video card hardware (witness the exorbitant $400-500 price tags of the new top of the line cards)? Or is this due to the added complexity of the manufacturing of the cards, the high input costs of R&D, marketing, low yield %, etc? As always, it's a combination of factors, but I wouldn't be surprised if the high cost of cards is mainly influenced by their high(er) manufacturing costs. As a matter of fact, many overclockers/hardware "enthusiasts" keep their cards at lower temperatures and in 'safer' conditions than Joe Public's cramped generic case with one fan.
As for the current cream of the crop, right now, neither the X800 nor the FX6800 appeal to me, simply because they're miles above my $200 (US) price ceiling on a video card. Personally, I'd like a hybrid of the cards, one with the GeForce FX's advanced DX 9.1 specs but with ATI's much lower power consumption and smaller card size.
Rollo, I must admit, you have a highly entertaining method of getting your point across. You would probably make an excellent radio talk show host or something. The problem is, people would only listen to your show for the same reasons that they watch Judge Judy; they would just want to see some hothead chew out everyone in sight, and throw their hands up in the air and start ranting and raving about how horrible everyone is (except for them of course).
To respond to the thread, yes Rollo, unfortunately I must agree with you. If you fry it you buy it IMO. That said, you really shouldn't incite people so much. I agree fully with what Jiffy said. There is NO COMPARISON between driving drunk, beating your wife, ethnic genocide, and overclocking. NONE. PERIOD. Making those comparisons should be left to drama-queens.
Did the OP really fry his X800 though? It sounded like it was just defective. I would be honestly interested in knowing whether overclocking a videocard without volt mods of any sort can actually destroy it. I have owned at least 10 graphics cards in my life and have overclocked them all to their limits. Not one has died on me. I might be more willing to assist you in your verbal onslaught if you were strictly talking about people who volt mod then try to RMA, but you're throwing overclockers in the same kettle of fish.
To respond to the thread, yes Rollo, unfortunately I must agree with you. If you fry it you buy it IMO. That said, you really shouldn't incite people so much. I agree fully with what Jiffy said. There is NO COMPARISON between driving drunk, beating your wife, ethnic genocide, and overclocking. NONE. PERIOD. Making those comparisons should be left to drama-queens.
Did the OP really fry his X800 though? It sounded like it was just defective. I would be honestly interested in knowing whether overclocking a videocard without volt mods of any sort can actually destroy it. I have owned at least 10 graphics cards in my life and have overclocked them all to their limits. Not one has died on me. I might be more willing to assist you in your verbal onslaught if you were strictly talking about people who volt mod then try to RMA, but you're throwing overclockers in the same kettle of fish.
well how the hell do you know he OCed the card? were you at his house?
bottom line is who the hell are you to lecture anybody? if you want to throw away 350-400 bux on a defective card then by all means do so and STHU about it!
Jiffylube1024:
Hmmmm, the "Cult of Rollo" - I like it. (but who would join?! LOL)
I wasn't trying to trivialize the holocaust or drunk driving with my analogies, only illustrate my points. Obviously defrauding vendors for $400 video cards is trivial compared to the examples I used (not hiring someone based on ethnicity, etc.) but it's not effective to use examples that are trivial compared to what you
are decrying.
If I had said," Fraudulent warranty replacement of video cards is a crime on par with inadvertently bringing home pens from work in your shirt pocket and must be stopped" it would have no impact.
Sickbeast:
(to be fair, I believe I qualified that genocide analogy with
Hmmmm, the "Cult of Rollo" - I like it. (but who would join?! LOL)
I wasn't trying to trivialize the holocaust or drunk driving with my analogies, only illustrate my points. Obviously defrauding vendors for $400 video cards is trivial compared to the examples I used (not hiring someone based on ethnicity, etc.) but it's not effective to use examples that are trivial compared to what you
are decrying.
If I had said," Fraudulent warranty replacement of video cards is a crime on par with inadvertently bringing home pens from work in your shirt pocket and must be stopped" it would have no impact.
Sickbeast:
Thank you, I laughed hard when I read this.
Not even genocide?!?!?! What is the world coming to when you can't compare stealing a few hundred bucks to the destruction of a race of people?!
(to be fair, I believe I qualified that genocide analogy with
but I agree with you, the issues I used are far more serious.
Sniperwulff:
Yes I was at his house Sniperwulf. I watched him jack the core voltage, use Powerstrip to up the core and RAM 50%, then disconnect the fans in his case and turn up the heat in his room. The last straw was when he unplugged the fan on the card itself, laughing maniacally about how "the extended warranty will cover it!"......
Oh yeah. I already said early on in this thread I have no problem with the original poster whatsoever, guess you just replied without bothering to read it! :roll:
Yes I was at his house Sniperwulf. I watched him jack the core voltage, use Powerstrip to up the core and RAM 50%, then disconnect the fans in his case and turn up the heat in his room. The last straw was when he unplugged the fan on the card itself, laughing maniacally about how "the extended warranty will cover it!"......
Oh yeah. I already said early on in this thread I have no problem with the original poster whatsoever, guess you just replied without bothering to read it! :roll:
RussianSensation
Elite Member
- Sep 5, 2003
- 19,458
- 765
- 126
SPEEDING
There is a time and place for everything. Speeding can also occur in controlled conditions when the time is right. It would be foolish to drive through a neighbourhood full of kids at fast speeds. But on the highway it is another story. In fact, probably every person who has ever owned a fast car has gone faster than the speed limit. Maybe next time you drive on the highway you'll notice that the average speed is at least 120km/h. In Canada, even, people are "slower" when every time i drive in Michigan everyone chugs at 140km/h. Cars are much safer now, the roads are much better, the handling, etc. The major argument brought with regard to higher number of car-related deaths over the last 10 years is misleading because there are more drivers on the road in proportion to the past. So it is just a statistical probability that you will have more deaths. To this day, no actual proof exists that if the speed limit was set higher than 65 miles per hour (or above 100km/h in Canada), the number of deaths would increase. If you recall from the past, Canada actually didn't have a speed limit long time ago and no one complained about the death rate. That is because at 100km/h the car's speed and fuel consumption are around optimal numbers (best speed/fuel consumption ratio if you will); and the speed limit was later implemented to help preserve fuel in NA, because at the time there was a shortage of oil. A person is 45% more likely to die in a car crash if he is not wearing a seatbelt and that number rises to 60% in a truck. Drinking and driving results in a tremendous amount of lost lives. So speeding should be the least of your worries when you are on the road. Think about it, if you are in control of a car, and drive responsibly, even at higher speeds your chances of getting into a car accident should stay the same assuming you know the limits of your driving skills and the limits of your car. The chances increase only due to the fact that when you have to react, when the car travels at such high speeds it takes longer, its more dangerous and you have less time to react. But you shouldn't have to react unless another driver causes you to (you should keep your distance and anticipate other driver's reactions and mistakes or actions). Imagine you were born in the world where the speed limit was 60km/h and not 100km/h. Now you would be believing that 100km/h is ludicrous because it is unsafe. Now how can you say that if that speed limit was above the current speed limit it would be unsafe unless you try it?
Just because there are motorcycle riders who pull wheelies and drive fast doesn't mean all motorcyclists are irresponsible. Just because I do not agree with a speed limit on the highway, and enjoy driving fast, it doesn't mean i do so irresponsibly. According to you, no one should ever buy a porsche, ferrari, or any other exotic sports car because there is no point as you can never drive it fast; and if you want to, take it on a race track => well tell that to every owner of a sports car out there and see what they tell you.
--------------------------------------------
WARRANTY
Now imagine you bought a brand new videocard and by accident you dropped it, your child spilled water on it, etc. These examples are clearly not covered by warranty. Yet no one intentionally tried to ruin the product. Is that consumer going to return the card to the store for a refund? Probably. But does it make that person any less "evil" in your eyes because he didnt kill the card by overclocking? And out of all warranty returns, how much accounts for intentionally ruined overclocked cards? I do not know and do not have this data on me. But average business estimate says that together many warranty returns + intentional + accidental breaks might add up to 5-7% of the returns. Essentially this consumer will accomplish the same action of returning the card for a new one as others who might have intentionally ruined the product. Also others return a product because they are simply unsatisfied with it, which still results in the same cost for the company because they can no longer sell it as new. Are you going to condemn these people as well? Saying that warranty returns increase the cost of the product might be correct, but I bet it's probably a $1-3 incorporated into each card. If you read before, I actually tried to explain how having a warranty is beneficial for a business because you could manage your income strategically, increase your expenses to lower NI and thus lower taxes paid, and create a "big bath" if you will by expensing all of the warranty at once. Besides, if a company accepts a product even if the consumer damaged it on purpose, that consumer will buy from them again, thus benefiting them much more in the long run by retaining a loyal customer. And finally, if whenever warranty is applied, the cost is the same so it doenst matter if the customer is unsatisfied, ruined it intentionally, or whathave you. Your theory only makes sense if a lot of the returns were actually associated with the damage caused by overclocking (but you do not have this data to back this up). Even if it is unethical, the effect on the real world might be so minute, that is it is not substantial to account for. I cannot even imagine how someone could fry their videocard by overclocking without increasing the voltage or whatnot. I mean once the card begins to artifact, you clock it lower and that's it. I imagine if it happens, you have to learn from your mistake, return the product, and next time do it more responsibly. I think 99% of everyone on these forums overclocks, thus they do not agree with your view of values with respect to warranty returns, or otherwise they wouldn't be overclocking because I doubt many of them accept the losses of their own mistakes.
I think most people share your feelings on this one, though different people have different ideas of how much over the limit is reasonable. i'll leave those out of the thread though.
fixed
the beauty of motorcyclists is that even if they are complete idiots, they aren't able to do much damage: if they run into a car, the occupants of the car will be 100% OK (unless they're not wearing their seatbelts, in which case they pay for their own stupidity), and the motorcyclist will probably be dead. Which is why you need to be EXTRA careful when riding a bike.
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