It sounds like a bad memory chip(s). It happens... happened to my 9700 after about a year, ATI replaced it no problems. You are lucky enough to be able to return it to the store and get another.
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: merlocka
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: jagec
so...
how far was it overclocked at the time?
Yeah that's pretty funny stealing $400 from Best Buy isn't it, Jagec? What the heck, they have lots of money, right?
Disgusting.
Who pee'd in your cherrios?
It's much more likely that he just got a bad card, considering he only had it running for an hour.
I find it disgusting that you're disgusted
I haven't said anything at all to the original poster.
I commented on Jagec's wink and assumption he had OCd to death prior to returning it.
If you have a problem with me stating my disapproval of people condoning burning up high end video cards for usually tiny performance gains , your opinion has been noted.
it just seems like there are a lot of assumptions in this series of posts.
A. Like I said, I wouldn't care if every sales clerk on the planet ordered me to abuse the system, I wouldn't do it.
B. Although I'm sure you're a fine sales clerk, what do you do with your returns? Does Best Buy eat the loss? Or do they return it to the manufacturer as a defective item? Where do you think the money to replace burned up video cards comes from? The magic money tree? No, it's part of someone's cost of doing business- either yours or the manufacturer's.
Who cares if the cost of doing business goes up?
Everyone should- it's reflected in higher prices, lower raises to employees, less employees, less investment in R&D, lower returns to shareholders, etc..
Every time someone deliberately misuses, then warranty returns any product they affect mutliple companies and lives.
Besides the fact that it's not exactly ethical.
If you learn some of the things I wrote here, perhaps you'll get to be head sales clerk.
nitromullet
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2004
- 9,031
- 36
- 91
Aren't most of those extended warrantees actually offered by third parties? I always thought that they were run similarly to insurance in the fact that these companies make their money based on the fact that the vast majority of people that get the extended coverage/replacement guarnantee don't ever use it.
From looking at the details of compusa's plan, it seems that it varies between states on who actually provides the warrantee.
http://www.compusa.com/media/tap_terms.pdf (it's a PDF)
As far as returning DOA or defective merchandise, the retailer sends it back to the company.
From looking at the details of compusa's plan, it seems that it varies between states on who actually provides the warrantee.
http://www.compusa.com/media/tap_terms.pdf (it's a PDF)
As far as returning DOA or defective merchandise, the retailer sends it back to the company.
RussianSensation
Elite Member
- Sep 5, 2003
- 19,458
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Yeah you are right to some extent. But when you try to overclock something you are taking a chance and a risk and you don't know if you will burn the card or not so you are not really deliberately misusing it and trying to burn it because you don't know your exact chances of damaging the card. Like if i bought Michelin Pilot tires rated at 185km/h but went 200km/h on the highway and the tires pop, i'll get brand new ones from the store because you have faith in quality products. Similarly everything ever made should have some room to "give" or it's not a well-made product. So you should be able to overclock hardware to at least 5-10% (or w/e the reasonable number is) or it's not a good product. Imagine if everything sold to the customer was sold "at the limit" like tires would actually pop at the warning speed, and if you overclocked a processor by 10mhz it would fry or die? It would be a disaster.
For instance, Ford F-150 Intake manifolds get tested at 200*F to test for melting and fracture under pressure. Of course in real life, no customer in the world will encounter these severe temperatures. But the only way to ensure something will work at all times in normal environment is to make sure it passes strenuous tests in "uncomperhensible/impossible environments." That is why some places will cover overclocking under warranty.
Besides, you are missing the whole point about customer satisfaction. Obviously it is worth it for places like Best Buy to offer this type of warranty as it will ensure that the customer will come back and buy from them. How many customers actually "dilberately" break products? Now how many customers decide to return something they dont like or that broke and they get a new product without question? That loyal customer will end up spending much more in the long run to guarantee that it covers any warranty mishaps. In fact, warranty is an amazing way for companies to manipulate their Net Income. Like ATI sells videocards, but they do not have to record the revenue for these videocards for up to 3 years before the warranty on them expires. This gives you a lot of flexibility. You could spread the revenue over the warranty service slowly, or you could record all of it at once at the end of the 3rd year period. This will show naive investors that the company is doing good all of a sudden and they will invest in ATI's stock. Also during the first 2 year period, you won't have to pay a lot of taxes, because your revenues will be low and instead use that money for say R&D. Things are much more complicated, but I think the concept of customer satisfaction is a very strong one in the long run. And also, companies estimate the amount of Returns and Allowances as a % of their Sales so it is not a suprise for them when a certain number of customers return defective items or products they are unsatisfied with. I think what hurts companies more is the number of items during production that do not pass the standards and get thrown out way before they reach the marketplace. Therefore, if you really wanted to improve the way things are done, good quality control is a nice way to start and it will help to address the issues I brought up about quality products in the beginning and their ability to "give." That way you try to cover both angles and reduce the chances of returns.
This is not a valid argument. It's analogous to say, "It wasn't a crime for me to drive my car drunk because I didn't know I'd hit those people".
I emailed ATI a year or two ago to see what they thought of OCing. They said it voids your warranty and that they don't approve. I realize this may have changed with the OCer driver features they now include, but IMO, I've never seen a significant gain in performance on the high end cards from OCing, so why risk your money or being a thief?
I don't care either way about the people who risk their money and take responsibility, or the original poster using his warranty properly.
I care about the attitude, "Everyone is doing it, why shouldn't we?" and I'm not going to rationalize what amounts to gray area theft with "some Best Buy clerk said it's OK!", "the insurance companies come out ahead anyway", "the companies should make cards capable of performing above spec", "I spend lots on cards, they owe me", or any other nonsense.
I bet the story would be different if I bought a video card from these guys, OCd it 25%, burned it and asked for my money back.
Thanks to those who remember what people in this country used to be like, when our parents taught us the difference between right and wrong instead of letting "The Fairly Odd Parents" do it.
RussianSensation
Elite Member
- Sep 5, 2003
- 19,458
- 765
- 126
Then you obviously haven't been racing because you dont know the threshold of your components and when you race you have to push things to the limit to find it. And BTW they happily go above 200
The original F-150 manifold was made of plastic not aluminum and it failed the 200*F testing, which made them think of implementing the aluminum, more costly one. Of course it is unnecessary as in real world conditions you'll never encounter 200*F so why did they do it then and became nervous? Because companies would like to guarantee products that go beyond expectations so they dont have to do multiple recalls and so on which cost a lot more in the long run.
I agree that ruining any component due to negligence is bad. In fact, by pushing the product above specs should be the consumer's responsibility and from an ethical point of view you should accept your risk-taking carelessness. But if you can get the warranty for it? why not take advantage of it? Companies already account for it and can benefit from it as explained in my previous post. Also from a consumer's perspective, if a product lives up to more than what it was designed to do u are more likely to buy it next time and every other time thus making huge $$$ for the company. Even if ABIT & ASUS do not cover overclocking on the motherboards, they surely promote it and that is what makes them the best motherboard makers.
So let me ask you and Rollo then, How can you determine if the product is a quality product without testing it at its limit or beyond!? In some cases, all products are equal until you take them beyond specifications. I think as a consumer I have the right to find out which product suits me better and I will push it to the limit if the company hasn't done it for me. Secondly, some warnings are way too conservative. Clearly Michelin tires go way beyond spec. I do not know the true reasoning for their company's conservative rating, but next time I buy tires, I'll buy from them and not Bridgestone because I know they make them better -- and because I tested them. Thus, a consumer will always want to justify his/her purchase price (esp if greater) by always trying to first justify the quality of the product => and oftentimes the only way to do so is to test the product beyond its spec or otherwise that conclusion cannot be drawn. Of course this doens't apply to all products and as Rollo insinuated overclocking videocards on air rarely produces results that are worth the trouble and the risk of the whole process. But I just have a different opinion about warranty returns and faith in quality products. I guess you can call me careless and strain to the companies. I just call myself adventurous.
PS. Now imagine you used 5 sets of Michelin tires over a time period and they all worked fine at XXX speed, which was above the rated speed already. Then your 6ths set had a problem....will you feel cheated with the quality of the latest set? Will you return them if given that option at no charge? Maybe now you wouldn't call yourself a dumb ass anymore because you didn't get as quality tires the last time as all the previous times prior to it. Then again, this is my thinking....so everyone is different.
- Aug 22, 2001
- 32,033
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Oooo, that is so honorable. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return some busted up junk to BestBuy.
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Oooo, that is so honorable. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return some busted up junk to BestBuy.
Of course, when I look in the mirror I see a man who takes responsibility for his actions looking back at me.
You see the equivalent of a welfare mom who gets pregnant to get a "raise", or a guy who doesn't look for work until his unemployment runs out.
Or guy who throws a bug on his plate at a restuarant after he's finished most of the meal and complains to get it free.
Or the woman who "buys" a dress to wear to an event, then returns it.
I know "honor" doesn't mean anything to "people" like you, hopefully you're not a parent creating more of the same.
Russian Sensation:
If I am a tile floor manufacturer, and I put a spec on my product "Will only withstand impact of 16lb bowling balls dropped from 3ft" and you tell me you broke the tiles by dropping bowling balls from 5 feet to test if my product was a "quality" product, I'll tell you to enjoy the broken tiles.
If a product performs at it's rated specification as expected for it's expected life, it's a quality product.
OK, but if you take them beyond those specs, you should bear the financial responsibility of the possible damage. The company only warranted it to their spec.
I think you're high, or naieve.
If I am a tile floor manufacturer, and I put a spec on my product "Will only withstand impact of 16lb bowling balls dropped from 3ft" and you tell me you broke the tiles by dropping bowling balls from 5 feet to test if my product was a "quality" product, I'll tell you to enjoy the broken tiles.
Did you ever think there's a degree of variance allowed for in quality assurance? They make the spec lower than some products will perform because they need to get a certain percentage of yield in each batch to sell profitably at that price point?
Your tests are meaningless (because you don't test a big enough sample to draw a conclusion) and unethical if you return the failed tires like a welfare punk.
gonna be funny when it is a power and/or cooling issue and the XT is even worse for you.
well, funny in a way.
well, funny in a way.
LTC8K6
Lifer
- Mar 10, 2004
- 28,520
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Hello Ford?
I need warranty service on my car. I was testing the 5MPH front bumper for quality by running it into a tree at 8MPH, and I ruined the front end of my car. It did not survive the 8MPH impact.
I have tested other Fords of this type and they survived the 8MPH impact with no damage, so this Ford is clearly defective.
I need warranty service on my car. I was testing the 5MPH front bumper for quality by running it into a tree at 8MPH, and I ruined the front end of my car. It did not survive the 8MPH impact.
I have tested other Fords of this type and they survived the 8MPH impact with no damage, so this Ford is clearly defective.
I have never returned anything which failed because of my own stupidity, and I never will. If my overclocked system (which I monitor to ensure it isn't running too hot or at too high a voltage) should fail, I'll suck it up and replace with new parts out of pocket. I always burn in my systems at stock for quite a while to make sure the parts aren't defective from the factory.
So go ahead, tell me how "disgusting" I am. I grew up in Ecuador, where there are NO returns for ANY reason, I'm still not used to returning things, even for valid complaints.
Have you ever returned something just because you didn't like it or thought it would be faster/newer/better than it was? In that case, you've cost the companies far more than I.
Wow. I can't believe there are people who really think like this.
Why don't you try calling up Michelin: "Hey, I've purchased six sets of tires from you, and they all worked fine within the speeds you said they would, but five of them worked at a higher speed and one didn't. Can I have my money back on those?"
Companies engineer in some slack to their products and specifications to be sure that an adequate percentage of their manufactured products can pass quality control, NOT so that people like you can abuse them to the point of destruction because you "know" the specs are conservative. In your example, I'm willing to bet that you could have bought tires that are actually specced at the higher speed you want to use them at, but you didn't want to because they cost more.
If the company or store gave you a warranty that said you could return the product for free for any reason, INCLUDING willful misuse or damage -- yes, you are legally entitled to return such a product. But don't delude yourself; you're just shifting the costs onto everyone else, by forcing the stores and/or manufacturers to increase their prices to compensate.
I also see this as a slightly fallacious argument, sorry. By going beyond normal specs and normal use, as you said, you take a chance and a risk; by definition, this puts the responsibility of ensuring that there is no resulting damage onto you. Jagec described a responsible overclocker attitude in his last post, and mdegner's OP problem was one of normal use that did not work, and warranted a replacement.
I can only say two things on this example:
- I hope you're on an autobahn or a raceway, the only two places I know where that speed is legal
- If a tire pops at 200kpm, I think the store will be the last of my worries - the first will be surviving the next few seconds and avoiding impact with anything.
Amusing reality concerns aside, it would depend if the rating was one of "normal use" or "maximum use". As my life would be at risk, I'd definitely check beforehand. Thankfully, with a video card, it'd only impact on a virtual car...
Isn't that exactly the job of Quality Testers, both within a company and (for realistic verification) outside? Sites like AnandTech and numerous others serve this exact purpose: they test the rigs to their limits and beyond, they give us the information by which we can judge and gauge if it will behave reasonably and predictably for whatever use we want out of the stuff. For example, I don't overclock and I don't need frills, so a review that says "this is a bad motherboard as it doesn't OC much and is barebones" will attract my attention since that'd be cheaper. It's a matter of both information and interpretation, and a question of trust in whatever information sources you consult.
It has never been the right of any customer to abuse the material they buy. They do so at their own risk and peril, and assume consequences. All the conservative warning labels are more due to specious litigations than anything else, partly (but by no means wholly) due to a very few idiots who abuse stuff and think they're owed something in return.
As for your other example of a sixth set of tires breaking down above specs: no, I wouldn't return them because - back to square one - I already knew I was taking a chance. I avoid sellers or resellers who will gladly accept many returns no questions asked because I have less confidence that they care more about product quality than about bottom line and fiscal manipulation to line their own pockets.
But back on topic: the X800s (and soon 6800s) are new on the shelves, and I'm sure we'll hear of more defective cards than normal due to the new technology still being tweaked with on a production level. For this reason, returns will probably be higher at first with fewer questions asked...
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Oooo, that is so honorable. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return some busted up junk to BestBuy.
Of course, when I look in the mirror I see a man who takes responsibility for his actions looking back at me.
You see the equivalent of a welfare mom who gets pregnant to get a "raise", or a guy who doesn't look for work until his unemployment runs out.
Or guy who throws a bug on his plate at a restuarant after he's finished most of the meal and complains to get it free.
Or the woman who "buys" a dress to wear to an event, then returns it.
I know "honor" doesn't mean anything to "people" like you, hopefully you're not a parent creating more of the same.
Good speech man. I hope it made you feel better. Unfortunately I couldn't care less what you think.
Now please, I really have to get to BestBuy to return my sh!t.
Any store that allows "abused/misused" product to be exchanged at the store level is not doing so under a warranty.
Warranty terms and conditions (unless specially written with an abuse clause) don't cover abuse, misuse, acts of god and so on.
Besides, stores don't offer warranty, they offer a return policy.
I know, I work in the warranty business.
See, there is a difference between "warranty" and "insurance". Any place that allows you to return an obviously abused/misused product, is either eating the costs themselves, or they have some type of insurance to cover losses like that.
Gentle1969
Warranty terms and conditions (unless specially written with an abuse clause) don't cover abuse, misuse, acts of god and so on.
Besides, stores don't offer warranty, they offer a return policy.
I know, I work in the warranty business.
See, there is a difference between "warranty" and "insurance". Any place that allows you to return an obviously abused/misused product, is either eating the costs themselves, or they have some type of insurance to cover losses like that.
Gentle1969
It doesn't matter to me if the salesmen are lying. I will hold them to it.
If the salesmen tell me they replace no matter what then thats what Best Buy is responsible for. They have to back up their salesmens word legally.
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