qwerty

[slightlyhuman]

Just got into a heavily debated argument with my family about religion. I told them I was agnostic. I was raised in a southern baptist environment. I did mission trips, etc. I'm on the fence. I told them I think religion is a relief for people who are scared of never gaining consciousness after one dies.

I want to believe there is a higher being but it's hard. IMO, it's hard to believe we came from evolution and have accomplished some of the things we as humans have done. At the same time it's hard to believe out of nowhere we were made from scratch. Why are there retarded children? Why do we have an appendix which servers no purpose to our body?

I guess anything and everything can be manipulated and shaped into what anybody wants it to. I'm just in the dark of where I came from.

Sorry for my thoughtless waste of a thread.

I'm just in a thinking/imaginative kind of mood I suppose.

ps- I've been drinking.

Go ahead and tear my post apart, I'm bored.

 

[EGGO]

Evolution never said anything about being our origin.

 

[TehMac]

I think you're pretty insightful, but I don't have any real answers, nobody does, nor pretend they really can. Faith is something you have because you want it. If you don't want it, and it's understandable at your age, then maybe you should wait til you are older, older peeps are more faithful for a reason.

 

[xanis]

I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

 

[HardcoreRomantic]

Originally posted by: Xanis
I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

But is there absolute proof that there is no god-type being? I'm not saying that a God has to be in anyway involved in what's happening on Earth, but for all we know, some supernatural being could be somewhere out there, doing its own thing. I think in order to be atheist, you have to have that absolute faith in there not being a god, which he also doesn't seem to have.

 

[slightlyhuman]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRomantic

Originally posted by: Xanis
I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

But is there absolute proof that there is no god-type being? I'm not saying that a God has to be in anyway involved in what's happening on Earth, but for all we know, some supernatural being could be somewhere out there, doing its own thing. I think in order to be atheist, you have to have that absolute faith in there not being a god, which he also doesn't seem to have.

I agree with you. I can't sit here and say I don't believe there is no god whatsoever. I also can't say I can't believe there is one. I just don't know? I need more proof before I make my decision based on something I was raised into.

 

[xanis]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRomantic

Originally posted by: Xanis
I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

But is there absolute proof that there is no god-type being? I'm not saying that a God has to be in anyway involved in what's happening on Earth, but for all we know, some supernatural being could be somewhere out there, doing its own thing. I think in order to be atheist, you have to have that absolute faith in there not being a god, which he also doesn't seem to have.

Touche. He sounds like he's on the fence as far as whether or not God exists at all. The logical side of him says that because there is no proof of a higher being then one does not exist. The other side of him, inclined to human nature, has some sort of deep-down feeling that a higher being must exist, for one reason or another.

 

[TehMac]

It's not about logic vs strict humanitarian desires, but perhaps a combination of both that are propagating this conflict of religious desire with scientific skepticism.

 

[xanis]

Originally posted by: DeePee

Originally posted by: HardcoreRomantic

Originally posted by: Xanis
I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

But is there absolute proof that there is no god-type being? I'm not saying that a God has to be in anyway involved in what's happening on Earth, but for all we know, some supernatural being could be somewhere out there, doing its own thing. I think in order to be atheist, you have to have that absolute faith in there not being a god, which he also doesn't seem to have.

I agree with you. I can't sit here and say I don't believe there is no god whatsoever. I also can't say I can't believe there is one. I just don't know? I need more proof before I make my decision based on something I was raised into.

I understand what you're saying, but here's what I was saying comes into play. Trying to find proof that God exists or one religion is more right than another is defeating the whole purpose of religion. Religion is based on a blind faith in something that is not supposed to be understood nor proven to be real.

 

[Bignate603]

You've got some really good questions, and I think you need to figure out where you stand on them to figure out what you believe. Unfortunately, nobody can figure that out for you. Good luck on your own personal discovery.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRomantic

Originally posted by: Xanis
I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

But is there absolute proof that there is no god-type being? I'm not saying that a God has to be in anyway involved in what's happening on Earth, but for all we know, some supernatural being could be somewhere out there, doing its own thing. I think in order to be atheist, you have to have that absolute faith in there not being a god, which he also doesn't seem to have.

Right, and I'm teapot agnostic :roll:

Your naive and childish definition of atheism is no different than the childish caricature that some atheists portray of God sitting on a cloud shooting lightening bolts at people.

 

[Leros]

Sounds like what you're saying is that you haven't ruled out some sort of god., but you think the current religions are ridiculous fabrications.

 

[slightlyhuman]

Originally posted by: Leros
Sounds like what you're saying is that you haven't ruled out some sort of god., but you think the current religions are ridiculous fabrications.

Well, even if I was to believe in baptism. What would make baptism anymore real/true than Catholicism or any other of the religions that are out there.

 

[timosyy]

All I will say about agnosticism/atheism is this: If all the world religions are the proverbial blind men touching the elephant and perceiving it to be different things (one guy touching the leg and saying its a tree, one guy touching the trunk and saying its a snake, etc.), atheists are also making a truth-claim, saying "look guys, I see the whole elephant, and its not any of those things". Agnosticism (as it is used in popular culture) is probably the more neutral of the two, saying "There may or may not be a God/these religions may or may not be false, it is inherently unknowable."

Edit: Also, for what its worth, wikipedia says the appendix serves a purpose

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

The road to enlightenment is hard when you have been fed lies all your life.

But once you become unbrainwashed you should find being an atheist highly furfulling.

Athiests have true core moral values, not the twisted and hypocritical false morals of the church.

Being kind to people because you are a good person is infinitly more nobal then being good out of fear. Loving everyone equaliy, and not just those the church deems "right", is truly unique to athiests/agnostics.

You never see Atheist hating gays.

You never see athiests killing other people because their beliefs are different.

Read some Richard Dawkins books, they will help you on your journey.

 

[meltdown75]

you're all wasted looking for answers to questions that people have posed for eons.

due to your upbringing you probably know that religion is more of a question of faith than anything. interpretation of faith presents itself in so many religions. it's hard to stick with one. sounds like you got into it pretty good with your family... hopefully that blows over and you have a good rest of the night.

i can relate to you... my wife goes to church without me. i'm not saying that i'll never go with her, but for the past two Sundays I have stayed home while she went. i haven't been to mass on a regular Sunday in years, and she just started going out of the blue. I'm totally cool with her going... that's fine. It's also not that I don't feel faith, because I most certainly do... it's just that I'm not in a very churchy mode right now.

 

[xanis]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
The road to enlightenment is hard when you have been fed lies all your life.

But once you become unbrainwashed you should find being an atheist highly furfulling.

Athiests have true core moral values, not the twisted and hypocritical false morals of the church.

Being kind to people because you are a good person is infinitly more nobal then being good out of fear. Loving everyone equaliy, and not just those the church deems "right", is truly unique to athiests/agnostics.

You never see Atheist hating gays.

You never see athiests killing other people because their beliefs are different.

Read some Richard Dawkins books, they will help you on your journey.

Once you pull your head out of your ass you'll realize that you just unfairly stereotyped all Christians, and in fact all people of all religions. Not all Christians are fanatical and extreme. Most are average shmoes like you me who live normal lives. And can I ask what's wrong with the morals of the Christian faith? The way I see it, good morals guided by religion are better than nothing. And atheists hating gays? I'd be willing to bet they exist. In fact, there are people who hate gays in every religion, not just the Christian one. People being kind to others is not always a product of religion. Some people, Christians included, are just nice people... not just because of religion, but because they simply are. Even if they're kindness towards others was a product of their religion, what does it matter? They're still being kind even if it's mandated by a higher power, who is apparently benevolent and loves all.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
The road to enlightenment is hard when you have been fed lies all your life.

But once you become unbrainwashed you should find being an atheist highly furfulling.

Athiests have true core moral values, not the twisted and hypocritical false morals of the church.

Being kind to people because you are a good person is infinitly more nobal then being good out of fear. Loving everyone equaliy, and not just those the church deems "right", is truly unique to athiests/agnostics.

You never see Atheist hating gays.

You never see athiests killing other people because their beliefs are different.

Read some Richard Dawkins books, they will help you on your journey.

If you want examples of unbrainwashed people, this is not a good example.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
The road to enlightenment is hard when you have been fed lies all your life.

But once you become unbrainwashed you should find being an atheist highly furfulling.

Athiests have true core moral values, not the twisted and hypocritical false morals of the church.

Being kind to people because you are a good person is infinitly more nobal then being good out of fear. Loving everyone equaliy, and not just those the church deems "right", is truly unique to athiests/agnostics.

You never see Atheist hating gays.

You never see athiests killing other people because their beliefs are different.

Read some Richard Dawkins books, they will help you on your journey.

If you want examples of unbrainwashed people, this is not a good example.

Anyone who believes in organised religion is brainwashed.

Obviously the OP is a mild case.

 

[AstroManLuca]

I see religion and science as serving wholly different purposes. They study two different planes of existence, only one of which is actually visible to us (the physical world). The other plane of existence, the supernatural one, is inherently unobservable and therefore we can't know anything about it scientifically. Things like souls, the afterlife, a supreme being, and the meaning of life... how can science possibly speak to those concerns? The answer is it can't, and that's why religion exists. It's also why philosophy exists, and I'm perfectly content to use philosophy to discuss that type of knowledge.

Science, however, you can't argue with. It's based on real observations of the physical world, and you can't deny the validity of its methods. You can argue against the relevance of scientific discoveries, but the fact is that scientific observations simply fit with each other. They work together.

There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts evolution or the Big Bang, just as there is nothing in science that contradicts the existence of God.

EDIT: I still consider myself, for all practical purposes, an atheist. I also don't think any one world religion is correct. If one of them is, it's entirely by chance, and the chances of a religion randomly being exactly correct are too small to be worth considering. As for the existence of a supreme being or other supernatural intelligence, I don't discount the possibility, but I think it's inherently unknowable. So I'm not sure if that makes me an agnostic or what. Since I consider that piece of knowledge to be unknowable, I don't really think of it at all and I don't think it's important.

 

[Aberforth]

Religion is not based on faith, in fact no man can be religious until he experiences certain truths himself. It's very bad to think that there some supernatural being above the clouds listening and answering your petitions, it brings horrible dependence and mental degradation on the concept of God. God is not a slot machine nor he is that person who has to show evidence to prove his existence. Those who say there is no God merely lack the intellectual capacity to understand the laws of nature. If there is God, you must seek him...not the other way around, only then all doubts will vanish and real truth will come out. But this mystery mongering attitude - ghosts, conspiracies, mysteries,UFO's etc will lead to nothing, it asks more questions than it answers, such is not the case with the knowledge of God- everyone is aware of it yet they want confirmation of his existence...which you can get it through personal research.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
The road to enlightenment is hard when you have been fed lies all your life.

But once you become unbrainwashed you should find being an atheist highly furfulling.

Athiests have true core moral values, not the twisted and hypocritical false morals of the church.

Being kind to people because you are a good person is infinitly more nobal then being good out of fear. Loving everyone equaliy, and not just those the church deems "right", is truly unique to athiests/agnostics.

You never see Atheist hating gays.

You never see athiests killing other people because their beliefs are different.

Read some Richard Dawkins books, they will help you on your journey.

If you want examples of unbrainwashed people, this is not a good example.

Anyone who believes in organised religion is brainwashed.

Obviously the OP is a mild case.

I think you over-simplify things, but in general I agree with you. There can be some humanity-loving people who are religious, but the zealots I think you'd be right about.
But there can be hardcore zealots who are atheists too. I fear I am kind of close to that point, and is something I need to change about myself. I like the social nature of humanity, and some great things come from us.... but I have a general view that is very negative in regards to humanity. Everyone places mankind on a huge pedestal, which is the reason we are where we are in the first place... but I view humans as nothing more than another creature that happens to have a few nifty tricks that allows us to increase our knowledge over generations and become better than the last generation.

I think it really can be boiled down to that one point. Many/everyone will argue against it, for we have everything great now... but imagine our ancestors, and if we lived in that time, we 1) wouldn't even be talking this deep, and 2) we'd be living a more primal life. A lot of our instincts are still very clearly ancestral and tribal, but our global communication and many things that boil down to religion have helped us become more than cavemen... kinda.

But, in general, I think our 'advanced' life is pointless in the end, and is just extra comfort to ease our mind of out the concept that we are merely here to procreate, raise offspring, and pass the torch to our kin as we die. But with all the modern advancements, we spread like a plague and breed like rabbits. A few great philosophers have questioned those very concepts but were shunned by society.

Sometimes I think these thoughts of mine limit my positive interaction with fellow man, but I even disagree with myself there. I really am almost two different people... the hater of man when alone... but when out and about, almost the opposite. Because as much as I hate mankind in general, while I am alive, I still want to do my part to make sure the life we have can continue for this generation and the generations to come, and to make sure the freedoms of the United States persevere and will always be offered to her citizens. And I continuously pay it forward for the good things that people have done to me, and almost always offer a hand to someone who needs it if its possible.

So, yes to boil it down... many atheists are very noble people in society. A lot of us may have sickening thoughts, but if anyone is like me... it won't interfere with the good things that may do. Some of us just hope we can spread our enlightenment, and that is where you get the bad seeds of atheism, because they almost make it to be a false religion and want to convert as many as possible. -- I still think, and hope, that one day religion will be but a mere afterthought for humanity, and that it will one day wake up to realize the truth. But then... that can't happen right now. Too many people hold it too dear, and many problems would arise from a 'godless' world.

I do think the possibility of 'divine' intervention is possible, but its not nearly as divine as some would want it to be. More advanced beings may live, but they would still be very much a product of the very same Universe we live in. They may or may not have helped spark life itself on Earth, but I cannot imagine mankind was created... instead we too are a product of the Universe and its governing laws.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
I see religion and science as serving wholly different purposes. They study two different planes of existence, only one of which is actually visible to us (the physical world). The other plane of existence, the supernatural one, is inherently unobservable and therefore we can't know anything about it scientifically. Things like souls, the afterlife, a supreme being, and the meaning of life... how can science possibly speak to those concerns? The answer is it can't, and that's why religion exists. It's also why philosophy exists, and I'm perfectly content to use philosophy to discuss that type of knowledge.

Science, however, you can't argue with. It's based on real observations of the physical world, and you can't deny the validity of its methods. You can argue against the relevance of scientific discoveries, but the fact is that scientific observations simply fit with each other. They work together.

There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts evolution or the Big Bang, just as there is nothing in science that contradicts the existence of God.

EDIT: I still consider myself, for all practical purposes, an atheist. I also don't think any one world religion is correct. If one of them is, it's entirely by chance, and the chances of a religion randomly being exactly correct are too small to be worth considering. As for the existence of a supreme being or other supernatural intelligence, I don't discount the possibility, but I think it's inherently unknowable. So I'm not sure if that makes me an agnostic or what. Since I consider that piece of knowledge to be unknowable, I don't really think of it at all and I don't think it's important.

This might be true if Genesis read a little something like this: Text

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Religion is not based on faith, in fact no man can be religious until he experiences certain truths himself. It's very bad to think that there some supernatural being above the clouds listening and answering your petitions, it brings horrible dependence and mental degradation on the concept of God. God is not a slot machine nor he is that person who has to show evidence to prove his existence. Those who say there is no God merely lack the intellectual capacity to understand the laws of nature. If there is God, you must seek him...not the other way around, only then all doubts will vanish and real truth will come out. But this mystery mongering attitude - ghosts, conspiracies, mysteries,UFO's etc will lead to nothing, it asks more questions than it answers, such is not the case with the knowledge of God- everyone is aware of it yet they want confirmation of his existence...which you can get it through personal research.

The ironing.

You're right, Einstein lacked intellectual capacity.

So does Hawkings.

And just about every single theoretical physicist.

:roll:

I've never met a single religious person that understands General Relativity. Or Quantum Mechanics for that matter.

If you believe that "A virgin gave birth to the son of god. Who then became a carpenter." your mental capcity for reasoning is so warped you will have issues understanding anything complex.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Religion is not based on faith, in fact no man can be religious until he experiences certain truths himself. It's very bad to think that there some supernatural being above the clouds listening and answering your petitions, it brings horrible dependence and mental degradation on the concept of God. God is not a slot machine nor he is that person who has to show evidence to prove his existence. Those who say there is no God merely lack the intellectual capacity to understand the laws of nature. If there is God, you must seek him...not the other way around, only then all doubts will vanish and real truth will come out. But this mystery mongering attitude - ghosts, conspiracies, mysteries,UFO's etc will lead to nothing, it asks more questions than it answers, such is not the case with the knowledge of God- everyone is aware of it yet they want confirmation of his existence...which you can get it through personal research.

The ironing.

You're right, Einstein lacked intellectual capacity.

So does Hawkings.

And just about every single theoretical physicist.

After my college, I worked in a Physics lab for 2 years writing computer code for automatic complex scientific equations....don't tell me that I am not aware of Einstein or Hawking. In fact I know more physics than anyone in this topic.

You should take up this subject of God just like any other study and research, not quote examples of other people.