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[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
And here is the typical ATOT crowd who despite religion or lack there of has no concerns about bashing everyone else. Seriously guys, most of you don't paint a pretty picture for whatever you believe by constantly flaming the person whose belief differs.

First off let me clarify something; Christianity is indeed based by faith but it is supplemented by evidence. Sure you can't see Jesus, but you can see all that he has done around you. Not only that the more we find archaeologically, the more accurate it all seems. Dead sea scrolls solidified that the Bible remained virtually unchanged from the ancient text. The book of numbers traces all these family trees - so much so that you can trace the OT prophets prophesies and see that over a span of hundreds of years that those prophesies came true. The ark of the covenant has been claimed to be found in Turkey.

Atheism is widely misconstrued. Atheism is the firm belief that there is no God AND there is no evidence that there ever was/is a God. Most people tend to leave out the second point when defining themselves as Atheists.

OP you have some good questions. I would be more than happy to talk over PM or E-Mail about them and, perhaps, both of us can grow in some way. I would encourage you to do the reading as recommended - that can be very powerful - but God works in many way ways, this may not be the way that he speaks to you.

Edit: Aberforth - You have some very passionate arguments. But you are forgetting that as a Christian we are called to love one another. Calling others half-witted, narrow-minded, and stuck up is not the way to live that out. It doesn't matter if someone is flaming you, it happens, but you can't fall to anger.

Well put. I will disagree with you on points (and am about to do so) but I appreciate that you are willing to approach others in a civil fashion.


Off to your post:
1. Would you point me to some good, specific evidence -- evidence that indicates that there is a god, not evidence that some portions of the bible are accurate?
2. Would you point to evidence of a specific prophesy that has been fulfilled? Something like "Mr X will die in a train accident on tuesday, august 7th" and then it happened?

3. Atheism isn't the firm belief that there is no god. Atheism is the firm belief that there is no good evidence of a god, and that it would be silly to pretend that there was a god, or even treat seriously the possibility of a god without such evidence.

From an atheist's standpoint, the claim of a god is, frankly, extraordinary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

To be painfully honest, I am unaware of any evidence that could convince me. Even if god came down and spoke to every person on earth at once, how could I rule out the possibility of an extremely sophisticated alien race?

I will do my best to answer

1. Evidence that there is a God is kind hard for me to just point out. From what I have found in my readings, I can prove God by proving other things exist (Though admittedly, I, myself, can't do this as I am not knowledgeable). Even if you don't believe it, I would STRONGLY recommend reading through "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. He basically goes through and systematically proves points (Its a good read no matter what).

For those of you who think it is weird to recommend a Christian oriented book to an Atheist, my friend is a Christian, and to grow in his faith, he is going to read "The God Delusion".

2. As for prophesies referring to specific current people, I cannot as there are none to my knowledge. However I can prove prophesies in the Bible occurred.

Jesus was prophesied to be an ancestor of David in the Old Testament - by tracing the genealogy found in (I think) Matthew, with help from the book of Numbers you can accurately trace Jesus back to those prophesies.

Additionally, the prophets of the OT (I apologize I can't be very specific, I admittedly am lacking on my study of OT scripture) all prophesy that Jesus would be born from a virgin and that he would give his life to die for humanity.

Come NT times, Jesus was born from a virgin and was later crucified by the multitudes after performing many miraculous deeds. While physical evidence can't prove the miracles, it has been proven (namely by Josephus the historian) that a man named Jesus was present during the times prophesied - though I don't know what all is said about the crucifixion from the historical standpoint.

Both of these arguments span from the Old Testament to the New Testament - a very long span of time in which things could have been changed as shocksyde indicated. However, the dead sea scrolls prove that the text has remained UNCHANGED through all those years and unchanged from the years of Jesus up until now.

I probably have some holes in those that I didn't address because I am doing this stream-of-consciousness but I hope I gave us something to go off of.

As for your third point, I think it is just a difference of semantics between what you and I said. I think we hit the important points in that definition

-Kevin

 

[RESmonkey]

You believe in prophecies :?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: So
Whenever someone capitalizes "Him" I lose oodles of respect for their opinion. Just say "Jesus" or "God" fer chrissakes...seriously.

so do you also lose respect for people wearing a cross or any other visible representation of their faith? that's very sad that you lose respect for someone based on their beliefs. i knew you were anti-religion but i didn't think you were anti-people.

Oh, I'm very much anti people. But that's beside the point. the whole capitalization thing is stuck up and pedantic. Surely you see my objection to that. If someone is wearing a small cross, or somesuch, well, that's not my bag (I mean defining myself using symbols) but I certainly do think it's hilarious when people where magical underwear.

:facepalm:

Ouch. Sorry, I had just woken up.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Just 1 question for you, Aberforth:


What do you think of other religious that worship more than 1 god or goddess?

You know God said in some book "Whosoever comes to me, through whatsoever form, I reach him. All men are struggling through paths unknown which in the end lead to me."

So what about people who worship idols, not just any ordinary idols, but animal idols, female idols, etc. ? What about the Greek gods, and African religious practices?

he also said "the different paths through which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear- crooked or straight. All lead to me."

 

[RESmonkey]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Just 1 question for you, Aberforth:


What do you think of other religious that worship more than 1 god or goddess?

You know God said in some book "Whosoever comes to me, through whatsoever form, I reach him. All men are struggling through paths unknown which in the end lead to me."

So what about people who worship idols, not just any ordinary idols, but animal idols, female idols, etc. ? What about the Greek gods, and African religious practices?

he also said "the different paths through which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear- crooked or straight. All lead to me."

So say someone were to just make up a religion that involves sacrificing others in the name of god. What would you say to that?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Just 1 question for you, Aberforth:


What do you think of other religious that worship more than 1 god or goddess?

You know God said in some book "Whosoever comes to me, through whatsoever form, I reach him. All men are struggling through paths unknown which in the end lead to me."

So what about people who worship idols, not just any ordinary idols, but animal idols, female idols, etc. ? What about the Greek gods, and African religious practices?

he also said "the different paths through which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear- crooked or straight. All lead to me."

So say someone were to just make up a religion that involves sacrificing others in the name of god. What would you say to that?

Like I said before, there are undeveloped minds in every religion and outside of it....Gandhi once said "In the midst of darkeness light surives, in the midst of untruth, truth survives, in the midst of death- life survives. Hence I gather- God is light, truth and life. He is the supreme good, but he is no God who merely satifies the intellect if he ever does."

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I will do my best to answer

1. Evidence that there is a God is kind hard for me to just point out. From what I have found in my readings, I can prove God by proving other things exist (Though admittedly, I, myself, can't do this as I am not knowledgeable). Even if you don't believe it, I would STRONGLY recommend reading through "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. He basically goes through and systematically proves points (Its a good read no matter what).

For those of you who think it is weird to recommend a Christian oriented book to an Atheist, my friend is a Christian, and to grow in his faith, he is going to read "The God Delusion".

2. As for prophesies referring to specific current people, I cannot as there are none to my knowledge. However I can prove prophesies in the Bible occurred.

Jesus was prophesied to be an ancestor of David in the Old Testament - by tracing the genealogy found in (I think) Matthew, with help from the book of Numbers you can accurately trace Jesus back to those prophesies.

Additionally, the prophets of the OT (I apologize I can't be very specific, I admittedly am lacking on my study of OT scripture) all prophesy that Jesus would be born from a virgin and that he would give his life to die for humanity.

Come NT times, Jesus was born from a virgin and was later crucified by the multitudes after performing many miraculous deeds. While physical evidence can't prove the miracles, it has been proven (namely by Josephus the historian) that a man named Jesus was present during the times prophesied - though I don't know what all is said about the crucifixion from the historical standpoint.

Both of these arguments span from the Old Testament to the New Testament - a very long span of time in which things could have been changed as shocksyde indicated. However, the dead sea scrolls prove that the text has remained UNCHANGED through all those years and unchanged from the years of Jesus up until now.

I probably have some holes in those that I didn't address because I am doing this stream-of-consciousness but I hope I gave us something to go off of.

As for your third point, I think it is just a difference of semantics between what you and I said. I think we hit the important points in that definition

-Kevin

1. To be fair, I'll have to give the Lewis book a look.

2. Unfortunately, claims made in the bible aren't really good evidence. By which I mean, that in that era, anyone could easily have retconned their own personal story to fit with the book. We have no evidence that he was born from a virgin, just a claim made in the NT. Whether or not that claim has remained unchanged doesn't make it necessarily true. Assume for a second that it is indeed false. Just because they have stuck to the story for a long time, doesn't make it fact. I do accept that Jesus was an actual person alive approximately when the church claims he did. As far as I know, impartial Roman records corroborate the following facts: That there was an actual guy Jesus of Nazareth, that he actually lived around judea, that he made some claims and had some followers. Unfortunately, just like today, there were dozens of guys making nearly exactly the same claims. The Christ prophesy was well known and nearly anyone could tailor themselves to fit it.

3. My point about the definition was important, I think. A lot of people assert that Atheists are 100% positive no matter what that there is no god. That's silly, just like I can't be positive that the sun won't disappear tomorrow, I can't be positive there is no god. I can however, be very, very sure. You simply can't prove a negative, which is why the burden of proof for the existence of god lies with those who claim he exists.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Just 1 question for you, Aberforth:


What do you think of other religious that worship more than 1 god or goddess?

You know God said in some book "Whosoever comes to me, through whatsoever form, I reach him. All men are struggling through paths unknown which in the end lead to me."

So what about people who worship idols, not just any ordinary idols, but animal idols, female idols, etc. ? What about the Greek gods, and African religious practices?

he also said "the different paths through which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear- crooked or straight. All lead to me."

So say someone were to just make up a religion that involves sacrificing others in the name of god. What would you say to that?

Like I said before, there are undeveloped minds in every religion and outside of it....Gandhi once said "In the midst of darkeness light surives, in the midst of untruth, truth survives, in the midst of death- life survives. Hence I gather- God is light, truth and life. He is the supreme good, but he is no God who merely satifies the intellect if he ever does."

But that still doesn't answer the question. It seems as though what you're saying is that inherently "good" religions (ones that don't, say, practice human sacrifice) are being guided by the Christian God even if they're not aware of it, whereas "bad" ones are not. But on the other hand, many Christians have told me that you can't worship a God other than the Christian God, and that the Ten Commandments are really important. The Ten Commandments don't only prohibit murder and adultery... they also prohibit a lot of things that really aren't morally wrong from a secular standpoint.

So if a person lives in a remote village and is never even exposed to Christianity, and lives out their life with a tribal religion, what about that? Does it make a difference if the tribal religion is "evil" and practices human sacrifice, vs. a peaceful one? Or are they both equally bad?

 

[timosyy]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
But that still doesn't answer the question. It seems as though what you're saying is that inherently "good" religions (ones that don't, say, practice human sacrifice) are being guided by the Christian God even if they're not aware of it, whereas "bad" ones are not. But on the other hand, many Christians have told me that you can't worship a God other than the Christian God, and that the Ten Commandments are really important. The Ten Commandments don't only prohibit murder and adultery... they also prohibit a lot of things that really aren't morally wrong from a secular standpoint.

So if a person lives in a remote village and is never even exposed to Christianity, and lives out their life with a tribal religion, what about that? Does it make a difference if the tribal religion is "evil" and practices human sacrifice, vs. a peaceful one? Or are they both equally bad?

It is worthwhile to note that he is quoting the Gita, not the Bible.

Edit: And so those Christians you talk to who say the Christian God is the one true God are theologically correct from a Christian perspective. Also, the Ten Commandments are important but not "really important", in the sense that Christians believe in the New Testament that Jesus came to die as the atoning sacrifice for all sin, and spent his time with prostitutes/tax collectors/etc. Deathbed/Jail conversions, while uncomfortable or even offensive to your average person, do happen/have theological precedence in Christian theology. The Ten Commandments are a good moral guideline (+easy to teach the kids), but to quote Christ:

"Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

2nd Edit: This is directed towards no one in particular but sometimes I wish a Comparative/World Religions class was required in high school. Would lead to a lot less intolerance/more understanding/fruitful conversation all around.

 

[Aberforth]

^ Religions are interpretations of direct experience. each one sees the same God through different colored glasses and tells their version of the story.... Like for example: If you see a real UFO, you tell your story and everybody thinks you are on drugs.

 

[RESmonkey]

Well, then what about the Quran (or is it Koran?) where it says all nonbelieves or something must be killed?

 

[Aberforth]

^ I do generic research, no book in particular. I didn't come across facts about Quran yet.

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
^ Religions are interpretations of direct experience. each one sees the same God through different colored glasses and tells their version of the story.... Like for example: If you see a real UFO, you tell your story and everybody thinks you are on drugs.

YES.

 

[Eli]

Does religion explain why there are retarded children and why we have an appendix?



:laugh:

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Eli
Does religion explain why there are retarded children and why we have an appendix?



:laugh:

Totally. God creates retarded people to punish them for their sin of being retarded.

 

[RESmonkey]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Eli
Does religion explain why there are retarded children and why we have an appendix?



:laugh:

Totally. God creates retarded people to punish them for their sin of being retarded.

edit

 

[ABitTooSpicy]

The history of organized religion can be summed up into 20 words: "My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend. Now lets kill millions of people till we know for sure."

 

[timosyy]

Originally posted by: ABitTooSpicy
The history of organized religion can be summed up into 20 words: "My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend. Now lets kill millions of people till we know for sure."

As much as I want to disagree with this, it is the unfortunate truth of the history of the church/organized religion (though I will say communism did the same thing, believing in no God).

I will point out that one has to make a distinction between the Church/Christians and actual Christian doctrine/theology, which states

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Gandhi had it right when he said "You Christians are so unlike your Christ."

 

[So]

Originally posted by: timosyy

Originally posted by: ABitTooSpicy
The history of organized religion can be summed up into 20 words: "My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend. Now lets kill millions of people till we know for sure."

As much as I want to disagree with this, it is the unfortunate truth of the history of the church/organized religion (though I will say communism did the same thing, believing in no God).

I will point out that one has to make a distinction between the Church/Christians and actual Christian doctrine/theology, which states

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Gandhi had it right when he said "You Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I agree, people will always find things to kill each other over. Hate is just such an empowering emotion that people will always succumb to the dark side.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRomantic

Originally posted by: Xanis
I have one word for you: Faith. Take a look here. I would like to call your attention to a specific portion of that definition:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Religion is based solely on faith. If you don't have it, as it appears you don't, then I would say atheism FTW.

But is there absolute proof that there is no god-type being? I'm not saying that a God has to be in anyway involved in what's happening on Earth, but for all we know, some supernatural being could be somewhere out there, doing its own thing. I think in order to be atheist, you have to have that absolute faith in there not being a god, which he also doesn't seem to have.

That's not the way it works. Atheism means lack of belief in gods. It doesn't mean you know for a fact there are no godlike beings anywhere. By your definition, there is no such thing as someone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus because that would require absolute faith that there is no such being.

 

[timosyy]

Originally posted by: So
I agree, people will always find things to kill each other over. Hate is just such an empowering emotion that people will always succumb to the dark side.

Because I have some free time...

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. (1 John 2:9).

Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8)

Imagine what the world would look like if the church as a whole actually followed the teachings of their faith... oh well. Point for Gandhi again.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: timosyy
Because I have some free time...

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. (1 John 2:9).

Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8)

Imagine what the world would look like if the church as a whole actually followed the teachings of their faith... oh well. Point for Gandhi again.

Some decent quotes, and a good point.

It's sad that so many people are so selective (or ignorant) of their own religious texts, and will use them to gain power and persecute others.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

I know one thing; there is no "afterlife" (at least not one that is meaningful in any way to this life).

You life is stored in your brains, which when dead, rot. No memories to take to heaven (lol, heaven, I crack me up), making this life disconnected and meaningless in any "afterlife".

Basically, what people fear, that they will cease to exist when dead, is utterly inescapable. When you die, everything that ever happened to you here will be lost, even if your "soul" goes somewhere (which is doesn't).

 

[SphinxnihpS]

also... www.godisimaginary.com simplifies all this drivel into concise logical arguments as to why religion is the stupidest thing you could possibly waste your time on.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: Eli
Does religion explain why there are retarded children and why we have an appendix?



:laugh:

What's funny is that people get hung up on stuff like that. It's like they're grasping for any excuse NOT to believe God exists.
Do you have to know the purpose or function of everything in the world before acknowledging God created it?
As for the appendix, it's a breeding ground for healthy bacteria to kick-start the body after diseases play havoc with the digestive system. Though in today's relatively sterile environment people can actually get along without it.