Quran burned at ground zero

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Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
I don't have a problem with this. One guy expressing his opinion...Perfectly legal...except for perhaps violating "public burning" laws...which SHOULD be covered under the 1st Amendment, just as burning a flag is covered...

The asshat pastor in Florida? That's a totally different situation. He advertised for weeks that he was going to do it, obtained a pile of korans to burn...then (as far as we know) backed down. His only purpose was to inflame and incite.

Was this guy's intent to inflame and incite? It didn't appear so from the video. He didn't say a thing. No ranting & raving about "terrarsts," or "Mooslums," he just tore out a page, applied some fire...then tore out a page, applied fire...and I think he would have continued in just that way if the police hadn't stopped it.

Sure, but I bet you wouldnt label him a "brave patriot who you support" either would you?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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No you idiot I would stand in arms to stop the policies and enforcement associated with preventing the free practice of religion in our country. Which is exactly what this moron seems to want to do by opposing the practice of Islam.

And people call him a patriot? The stupidity is breathtaking.

Exactly how is he preventing the free practice of Islam? Pissing people off does NOT equal removing their ability, got that or do I need to repeat it again?
 

Chuvalo

Member
Sep 11, 2010
65
0
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So, you support the "mosque" being built at "ground zero?"

So long as it's done legally and constitutionally , doesn't the U.S. give any religion the right to build their mosque, or synagogue or church wherever they like ?

And shouldn't the logic go something like this......

- You don't like the fact we're burning a bible - tough - that is one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American.

- You don't like the fact that we're burning a Quran - tough - that is one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American.

- You don't like the fact that we're legally building a Mosque where we want to - tough - that is one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
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Peaceful opposition to what exactly? The practice of Islam? What is the purpose of opposing the practice of Islam? What do they hope to achieve?

At first glance, I don't know.

The more I think about it, it's probably to express the pain caused by Islamic terrorism. To let the world know "Hey, we're upset". That there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

I can't speak for them, but that's my guess. They're not looking to achieve violence against Islam as you'd so deftly surmise. If that were the case they could have easily done so.

Hell, foreign Muslims across the world burn US symbols weekly. It's nothing new and I don't hear squat from you or anyone else who so brazenly defends their symbols. What makes you so keen for threatening violence on their behalf?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Yep they are free to show that they are ignorant bigots buy burning someones holy book.

Exactly, as long as they owned the book they burned. Same thing with the flag, the bible, and everything else that we are free to do.

Again, freedom is not about protecting what is popular. If that was the case then Islam would be outlawed in this country. Gotta take the good with the bad.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
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Chuvalo said:
So long as it's done legally and constitutionally , doesn't the U.S. give any religion the right to build their mosque, or synagogue or church wherever they like ?

And shouldn't the logic go something like this......

- You don't like the fact we're burning a bible - tough - that is one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American.

- You don't like the fact that we're burning a Quran - tough - that is one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American.

- You don't like the fact that we're legally building a Mosque where we want to - tough - that is one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American


That would be my point, Chuvalo...

\just wondering where Darwin333 stood on this....
 
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Chuvalo

Member
Sep 11, 2010
65
0
0
Exactly, as long as they owned the book they burned. Same thing with the flag, the bible, and everything else that we are free to do.

Again, freedom is not about protecting what is popular. If that was the case then Islam would be outlawed in this country. Gotta take the good with the bad.

The issue isn't Islam...the issue is extremist radical terrorists who have hijacked Islam to justify their sick and twisted view of the world.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,137
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Sure, but I bet you wouldnt label him a "brave patriot who you support" either would you?

I actually think the guy's a fucking idiot...but I support his right to burn the koran...just like I absolutely HATE the burning of the US flag...but defend the right to do that also. (as long as it's not MY flag...)
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Let me break it down in really simple terms for you:

burning your own book = not intimidation
threatening to blow shit up and murder innocent/uninvolved people = intimidation

mmmkay?

wtf
lol...alright
Thanks for breaking that down for me.
 

Chuvalo

Member
Sep 11, 2010
65
0
0
Exactly, as long as they owned the book they burned. Same thing with the flag, the bible, and everything else that we are free to do.

Again, freedom is not about protecting what is popular.

If that was the case then Islam would be outlawed in this country. Gotta take the good with the bad.

And the folks who are planning to build their Mosque near the 9/11 site are doing so with this fundamental premise of democracy foremost in their mind I suspect.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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For the record, I would never burn a copy of Quran. I think it's distasteful and disrespectful to Muslims.

I don't see the President of the United States supporting our citizens' Constitutional right to free speech (burning copies of Quran) like he did with the WTC Mosque/Community center.

The first part is good. But the burning of Qurans cannot be compared to the Muslims building a community center. To say otherwise is a right-wing talking point that's wrong.

Burning the Quran is what you said it is. In contrast, building the community center is a group of innocent citizens doing something perfectly legitimate for legitimate needs.

The President spoke out when people's freedoms to simply do something that there was nothing wrong with were threatened by mob bigotry and misunderstanding. He did not speak out to defend a person using their right to act 'distastefully and disrepsectfully'. They're both rights, but one is doing nothing wrong threatened by hate, the other is not.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
I actually think the guy's a fucking idiot...but I support his right to burn the koran...just like I absolutely HATE the burning of the US flag...but defend the right to do that also. (as long as it's not MY flag...)

And you and I are in absolute 100% agreement then.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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And the folks who are planning to build their Mosque near the 9/11 site are doing so with this fundamental premise of democracy foremost in their mind I suspect.

They're building it there because that's where there are people living who can use it.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,458
526
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"That part of Islam that doesn't want him to burn a copy of the book" is ALL of Islam. :rolleyes:

It is extremely offensive to every single practicing Muslim on the entire globe to burn a copy of their most holy book.

"All this guy is doing" is expressing his HATE towards ALL of Islam by purposely and ignorantly burning their most sacred founding text.

But if he were burning a bible while taking a piss on the virgin mary, then wipe his ass with an american flag, you celebrate it as free speech right?

Oh and "extremely offensive" actions as this are protected as free speech.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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At first glance, I don't know.

The more I think about it, it's probably to express the pain caused by Islamic terrorism. To let the world know "Hey, we're upset". That there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

I can't speak for them, but that's my guess. They're not looking to achieve violence against Islam as you'd so deftly surmise. If that were the case they could have easily done so.

Hell, foreign Muslims across the world burn US symbols weekly. It's nothing new and I don't hear squat from you or anyone else who so brazenly defends their symbols. What makes you so keen for threatening violence on their behalf?

Who's threatening violence?

A difference is that some people are burning symbols to protest actions.

Other people are threatening to burn Qurans because they are blaming innocent Muslims for Al Queda's actions.

There's also some distinction between burning someone's religious book versus a national political flag.

If there was a protest to burn the Iranian flag in protest of their executing gay people, I'd cheer them on.

If there was a protest to burn the Quran in protest of the common gay bigotry among Muslims, I'd say, that's an inappropriate protest - I cheer the protest, not the burning.

IMO, the Quran burning is about expressing hate against innocents, not a political protest.

It's a little perhaps like the difference between a campaign who goes after a candidate's family - it's 'their right', but it's not the same thing as going after the candidate.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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But if he were burning a bible while taking a piss on the virgin mary, then wipe his ass with an american flag, you celebrate it as free speech right?

Oh and "extremely offensive" actions as this are protected as free speech.

No, actually. Let's make a little chart.

Action: piss on the virgin Mary
Left: that is offensive to do, but is protected free speech.
Right: There's the left CHEERING the people pissing on the virgin Mary loving it!!!!!

Action: burn the Quran
Left: that is offensive to do, but is protected free speech
Right: There's the left CENSORING FREE SPEECH, hypocrites who LOVE when it's done to one side and have no respect for free speech rights when the other side does it!!!!!

What you are confused about - one thing - is that the left is reacting to the right on the virgin Mary pissing of saying how it should not be allowed, defending free speech; and the left is reacting to the right on the Quran burning of the right saying "YA GOOD FOR HIM!" joining in the expressions of hate, by saying 'that's a wrong thing to choose to do using your right to free speech."

The left has similar positions, it's the right who's all over the map depending which side is doing the action, and they say it's the left changing positions.
 
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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,137
12,456
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Who's threatening violence?

A difference is that some people are burning symbols to protest actions.

Other people are threatening to burn Qurans because they are blaming innocent Muslims for Al Queda's actions.

There's also some distinction between burning someone's religious book versus a national political flag.

If there was a protest to burn the Iranian flag in protest of their executing gay people, I'd cheer them on.

If there was a protest to burn the Quran in protest of the common gay bigotry among Muslims, I'd say, that's an inappropriate protest - I cheer the protest, not the burning.

IMO, the Quran burning is about expressing hate against innocents, not a political protest.

It's a little perhaps like the difference between a campaign who goes after a candidate's family - it's 'their right', but it's not the same thing as going after the candidate.

Craig, you and I are USUALLY on the same side in political issues, but we differ on the section I highlighted above.

While MOST Islamic people are peaceful enough, I see this as a protest against the ones who carried out the 9/11 attacks and against the ones who cheered after the towers fell...and against all those who burn US flags, US politicians in effigy, and in many other ways, protest against the US and our ways of life.

Is this going to be offensive to many who aren't in those groups? No doubt...but life is full of disappointments and offensive things...get over it.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Why is Obama even wasting time on this? Shouldn't he be focused on more important things like the economy? Once again, the rookie shows his inexperience.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
I oppose violence against Americans here as a response to burning of the Quran.

As for the military issue - how people react to an 'occupying foreign military force' is another matter.

I don't think you would stand up against someone being violent to an Afghan army who was occupying the US you did not want here.

I don't support violence there, either, over this - but it's understandable why it's a danger.

I'd like to see you go to the parking lot of a mega church in Texas as people exit, and start burning a pile of bibles and flags, and see how your 'non-violence' is respected.

And that's right in the US with 'free speech'
, not a war zone with foreigners without it.

Do you understand the difference between private and public property?

Try doing what you just suggested in my yard/garage/driveway and I'll sue you for everything under the sun including but not limited to trespassing, among other things.

And no, one does not have the right to do that(or anything they want) on private property all in the name of "free speech", unless the property owner gives consent.
 

Chuvalo

Member
Sep 11, 2010
65
0
0
Craig, you and I are USUALLY on the same side in political issues, but we differ on the section I highlighted above.

While MOST Islamic people are peaceful enough, I see this as a protest against the ones who carried out the 9/11 attacks and against the ones who cheered after the towers fell...and against all those who burn US flags, US politicians in effigy, and in many other ways, protest against the US and our ways of life.

Is this going to be offensive to many who aren't in those groups? No doubt.

..but life is full of disappointments and offensive things...get over it.

Well said.

All the uproar about the planned building of a Mosque near the 9 /11 site is a case in point IMO.

I'm sure the planners of that Mosque, in response to the criticism being directed towards them, would echo your sentiments ......
" life is full of disappointments and offensive things...get over it. "

 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
1
0
I like this guy. He expressed his right to free speech without being an ass. Sure, what he did was offensive to billions of people, but burning a bible wouldn't get nearly as much publicity. I'm actually thinking of setting fire to a bible, quran, torah, and other religious texts together to show that they all suck equally.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Craig, you and I are USUALLY on the same side in political issues, but we differ on the section I highlighted above.

While MOST Islamic people are peaceful enough, I see this as a protest against the ones who carried out the 9/11 attacks and against the ones who cheered after the towers fell...and against all those who burn US flags, US politicians in effigy, and in many other ways, protest against the US and our ways of life.

Is this going to be offensive to many who aren't in those groups? No doubt...but life is full of disappointments and offensive things...get over it.

Well, it's nice that we agree usually, but not that many agree on everything.

I think Al Queda has disrespected Islam enough already, what with trying to get the Muslim world invaded and all (did you know 90% of the people killed by Al Queda are Muslims?)

I think that this represents the lumping together of the innocent and not innocent irresponsibly, and involves completely unnecessarily wronging Muslims.

While these people may think they're doing what you say, what they're doing isn't aimed at Al Queda, it's aimed at Muslims who not only did not do the attack, they were Al Queda's real target of the attack. Attacking innocent people for their religion is a far cry from the political protest of things like protesting a nation having invaded their country or put a dictator over them or a foreign military in their country. They may burn the flag of the country who protects their dictator, but they didn't burn bibles. And I'll tell you, the Muslims being disrespected here had less to do with Al Queda, their enemy, than the American people have to do with their country's actions *who they elect*. Muslims did not elect Al Queda. This blaming Muslims for 9/11 is wrong and you are defending the mistake.

It's a little like having a KKK rally showing hate for blacks in response to the OJ Simpson murders. 'But they're just protesting the terrible crime a black man did'.

The answer to this isn't your 'get over it' - it's the message to you to stop wrongly disrespecting innocent people.

I know you have some 'liberal' values, but one of them is being able to be fair, putting yourself in the shoes of people and seeing what's fair. You aren't showing that one.

'Get over it' is the statement of the mob doing wrong, not someone doing right. You have no right *morally* to do something so hurtful to innocent people because you can't tell Al Queda from Muslims. You are defending this mistaken placing of blame and crossing the line for religious insults - religious hate - religious war - for no good reason but that you are caught up in the mob mentality. 'Get over it' is not a rational defense. It's thuggery.

Listen to the Jewish poster who compared this to the scapegoating of Jews in Germany and ask if you are doing anything right here in venting your anger against innocents.

Keep it up, and you will have more and more real incidents of violence on both sides to give Al Queda and the political exploiters of this 'conflict' what they want as they feed on it, getting support, getting money, getting votes by giving people a 'cause' of hate with themselves the people who gain from the hate they create.