Quran burned at ground zero

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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Well actually you're agreeing with me there. The US soldiers will die argument was one used by Obama and his supporters on the issue made.

And remember I just pointed out that people had died in "their" protests. ;) That seemed outlandish to you for some reason.


Days of unrest over the threatened Koran-burning coincided with rising tensions in advance of Saturday's parliamentary elections. Many observers fear that vote will be plagued by both fraud and violence.

Taliban fighters have vowed to try to disrupt the balloting for the lower house of parliament, the second such vote since the austere Islamist movement was toppled by a U.S.-led invasion nearly nine years ago.

Shall we play guess the real reason for those protests?
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
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Yeah cos there's no one trying to kill western forces in Afghanistan at the moment :rolleyes:

Presumably they were playing nice before this?
So why then would Obama have Defense Secretary Robert Gates call the guy and convince him to not do it by saying it could harm US soldiers?

Surely, the Defense Secretary has much more important things to do than to waste time convincing an idiot from burning the Quran(or some other holy book) when US troops would still be killed anyways regardless of whether he burns the book or not? :rolleyes:
 

Chuvalo

Member
Sep 11, 2010
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Most radical Christians I know today seem to be in the mold of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell...All talk and no action.

They are usually stupid, distasteful and may look at something(or a particular situation such as Haiti earthquake, Asian Tsunami, or Ariel Sharon's stroke) and say "God wanted it to happen", "you deserved it", or "that's your punishment for supporting a particular political position" but they haven't killed anyone or done any terrorist attack that I know off.

Radical Muslims on the other hand...

I think you forgot Fred Phelps, the pastor of Westboro Baptist Church didn't you ?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Shall we play guess the real reason for those protests?

I'm sure their concerns about fraud pushed them to burn an American flag... Do you try to see the world as it is or do you try to see it in the way that will hurt your opponent's argument?
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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No, actually. Let's make a little chart.

Action: Build a Mosque near ground zero
Right: that is offensive to do, but he has the right to do it.
Left: The right is full of BIGOTS and RACISTS and HATE-MONGERING TEABAGGERS!!!!

Hmm... look at that.

The left has similar positions, it's the right who's all over the map depending which side is doing the action, and they say it's the left changing positions.
Wow... do you seriously believe this stuff yourself or do you just say it for a laugh? Surely you can't be that high... all the time.

When "the left" disagrees with and protests the government, it's the highest form of patriotism. When "the right" disagrees with and protests the government, it's because of a vast conspiracy of the richest people in America funding RACIST, BIGOT, XENOHOMOISLAMOPHOBIC groups of West-Virginia rednecks.

Try to deny what I just said. Try. It'll be funny.
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,408
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So why then would Obama have Defense Secretary Robert Gates call the guy and convince him to not do it by saying it could harm US soldiers?

Surely, the Defense Secretary has much more important things to do than to waste time convincing an idiot from burning the Quran(or some other holy book) when US troops would still be killed anyways regardless of whether he burns the book or not? :rolleyes:

Because politicians are morons more worried about their domestic press ratings than reality?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I'm sure their concerns about fraud pushed them to burn an American flag... Do you try to see the world as it is or do you try to see it in the way that will hurt your opponent's argument?

So you think if that guy hadn't threatened to burn the koran those demonstrations wouldn't have happened?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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So you think if that guy hadn't threatened to burn the koran those demonstrations wouldn't have happened?

I think the guys bitching about the Koran and burning flags (maybe it was another article) were definitely protesting about the Koran. Do you doubt that there are muslims in other countries that aren't offended by something a florida dumbass didn't do?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I think the guys bitching about the Koran and burning flags (maybe it was another article) were definitely protesting about the Koran. Do you doubt that there are muslims in other countries that aren't offended by something a florida dumbass didn't do?


o_O:confused:
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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So, you support the "mosque" being built at "ground zero?"

Absolutely. As long as they are building on their own land with their own money it is their right to do so. I also support the rights of the other side to legally protest it. When it comes to our freedoms I am an "all in" kinda guy. You MUST protect the bad because that is exactly why they are protected. There usually is no need to protect what is popular and in almost all cases once the .gov taketh it doesn't giveth back.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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BUT he has a Right to be an asshat if he so desires. Just like the insensitive muslims building the mosque.

I agree he has the right to be an asshat, but what he did is not even remotely like the folks trying to build the community center. The "offensiveness" of the building is entirely a result of people viewing the action through their terrorism colored glasses...there is nothing INTENDED to be offensive about the building. On the other hand, burning a Koran is INTENDED to be as offensive as possible to Muslims, that's why this guy burned it and that's why you burn the holy books of other religions in general. If you don't think motivation makes a difference...
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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I agree he has the right to be an asshat, but what he did is not even remotely like the folks trying to build the community center. The "offensiveness" of the building is entirely a result of people viewing the action through their terrorism colored glasses...there is nothing INTENDED to be offensive about the building. On the other hand, burning a Koran is INTENDED to be as offensive as possible to Muslims, that's why this guy burned it and that's why you burn the holy books of other religions in general. If you don't think motivation makes a difference...

You're a fool if you don't think the mosque is being built specifically to be offensive.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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You're a fool if you don't think the mosque is being built specifically to be offensive.

We don't know for sure either way. All we can do is look at the evidence and infer.

No intent: Muslims have already been present in that area praying. They say it's not meant as an insult. They have offered space for other religions to pray.

Intent: It's named after the capital of a Islam expansion into Western Europe. Obstinance despite the fact that the builders would lose nothing by moving the building three more blocks away and showing the rest of the world that Muslims believe in compromise or sensitivity. Funding by Saudis (who happen to own share 5% of News Corporation.)

But whether or not they intend it to be offensive, it is still insensitive.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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You're a fool if you don't think the mosque is being built specifically to be offensive.

Really? Because finding it offensive seems to require me to make a lot of cognitive leaps, like thinking all Muslims symbolize terrorism, the building is a giant "super Mosque" instead of a community center with basketball courts and swimming pools, that ground zero extends for several blocks in every direction and "hallowed ground" includes strip clubs. Also, I need to ignore the fact that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for building the community center that ISN'T intended to be offensive, while burning someone's holy book only has one purpose.
 
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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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We don't know for sure either way. All we can do is look at the evidence and infer.

No intent: Muslims have already been present in that area praying. They say it's not meant as an insult. They have offered space for other religions to pray.

Intent: It's named after the capital of a Islam expansion into Western Europe. Obstinance despite the fact that the builders would lose nothing by moving the building three more blocks away and showing the rest of the world that Muslims believe in compromise or sensitivity. Funding by Saudis (who happen to own share 5% of News Corporation.)

But whether or not they intend it to be offensive, it is still insensitive.

Well since something being insensitive can be entirely up to the perception of people being offended, I personally think that the motive matters more than the outcome. Whether it's your right or not, doing something for the sole purpose of pissing people off makes you a douche...happening to piss people off in the course of doing something for another reason is much less objectionable, IMHO.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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That would be my point, Chuvalo...

\just wondering where Darwin333 stood on this....

Sorry for the late reply, went to bed last night and had a bunch of yard work, BBQing and a bit of beer drinking/Frisbee with the dog to get done. I replied to your previous post but I figured I would elaborate a bit on my stance to clear up any doubt or questions.

I am not one of those fair whether freedom people. I am not one of those that defend the hell out of the 2nd while pissing on the 4th. I am not one of those that defend the hell out of the 1st (except in this instance evidently) while pissing on the 2nd.

I actually believe in our freedoms, all of them. I believe that bad stuff can happen because of our freedoms but the good vastly outweighs the bad. So I honestly believe in the freedom of speech and that means that I believe that people have the right to say things that I whole heartily disagree with. They even have the right to say things that <gasp> downright piss me off. I do NOT have the right to blow their shit up because of that though.

As much as I have defended this guy, I would defend a Muslim who was being denied or attempting to be denied their rights too. When they where posting paintings of Christ being pissed on or something I defended that too. I despise bullshit like "free speech zones", the patriot act and the constant eroding of our rights. I despise bullshit like our 4th amendment rights being eroded simply because of the advance of technology. I despise bullshit like Chicago's gun ban. I have and will consistently stand up for freedom, even in cases that I am not really sure about I defer to the side of freedom. If I am going to be wrong I would much rather be wrong on that side than the other because the government can always take freedom but rarely do they give it back.

From pretty much the start of the "Mosque" controversy I have said if people are that pissed off about it they should start a fund to buy the adjacent property. Then they can hang the biggest pictures from "draw Mohammad day" that they can on the building. That is how America works, you are free to be an insensitive bastard and so am I. It is their right to build it but if you can gather up enough money, it is your right to piss em off everytime they walk outside of it. Once you start threatening violence because of some insensitive bastards free speech you become the enemy and should be persecuted with extreme prejudice and that is what this is about.

If you want to argue this particular guy is an insensitive asshole then fine, I would tend to agree. However, we should all give a big fuck you to the people who would threaten us because of the Constitutionally protected actions of that asshole.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Well since something being insensitive can be entirely up to the perception of people being offended, I personally think that the motive matters more than the outcome. Whether it's your right or not, doing something for the sole purpose of pissing people off makes you a douche...happening to piss people off in the course of doing something for another reason is much less objectionable, IMHO.

I don't think you know their motives any more than Spidey does. And other Muslims have come out and said their motives are bogus.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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I don't think you know their motives any more than Spidey does. And other Muslims have come out and said their motives are bogus.

I DON'T know, which is actually my point. I'm not defending the building of the mosque because I know that their motives are good, I'm doing it because I don't like assuming the worst about people without having any proof. There's nothing wrong with giving people the benefit of the doubt, and it makes a lot more sense than assuming everyone is an asshole.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Has anyone actually been killed/assaulted because of this koran burning? Or have 'they' just been protesting as well?

And would this be all muslims? What proportion would you say? 80%? 60%
I'd just like to get a handle on your reality.

Evidently the threat was valid enough for the Defense Secretary of the United States of America to personally call some nobody pastor with a flock that totaled a whopping 50 to persuade him not to burn the Koran. I believe that Obama got personally involved at some point as well.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Evidently the threat was valid enough for the Defense Secretary of the United States of America to personally call some nobody pastor with a flock that totaled a whopping 50 to persuade him not to burn the Koran. I believe that Obama got personally involved at some point as well.

Because politicians are morons more worried about their domestic press ratings than reality?
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