Question for Christians

[sandorski]

The Water Breaks because the Soul is entering the Fetus. Therefore, Life only begins just before Birth.

It also means that most Caesarean Section Babies are, at least for a time, Zombies. The Soul was expecting a later time for entry and was stuck in Traffic.

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[thraashman]

I find it kind of amusing some people who are trying to use analogies of predictions to show how God can know the future without affecting free will. The problems with your arguments are many.
First I saw, dog and piece of meat. True, you can predict that a dog will go for a piece of meat if you put it in front of him. The difference between this and what you ascribe to God, is that you are predicting based on logic. In your case God KNOWS that the dog will bite the meat in exactl 3.7 seconds from when you place it on the ground and then the next time that dog with eat meat is 5 hours from then when you drop your dinner plate on the carpet. And on and on. And despite that there is a very high probability that the dog will eat the meat, he might not.

Second argument I saw mentioned a weather man. Weather men predict the weather using scientific measurements and instruments and logical assumptions. They can never predict with 100% accuracy (notice they'll say there's a 79% chance of rain). Hence the don't KNOW what the weather will be. And even if they predict the weather, things will inevitably change and after 2 weeks or so there's no way to know how the weather will be because things change. But according to you, your God will know.

Basically several of you are trying to compare the use of probability mathematics with God knowing all thigns past, present, and future.

But yes, if a being, ANY being, could know the future, then that means that the future is predetermined. Predestination makes free will impossible because if my choices are known before I make them, then no matter what I do I can't change them. So indeed I would have no free will. There are many reasons I'm an atheist, this concept is one of them.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: sandorski
The Water Breaks because the Soul is entering the Fetus. Therefore, Life only begins just before Birth.

It also means that most Caesarean Section Babies are, at least for a time, Zombies. The Soul was expecting a later time for entry and was stuck in Traffic.

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ROTFL. Read that in Jack Black's Tenacious D voice and it rocks harder.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: thraashman
I find it kind of amusing some people who are trying to use analogies of predictions to show how God can know the future without affecting free will. The problems with your arguments are many.
First I saw, dog and piece of meat. True, you can predict that a dog will go for a piece of meat if you put it in front of him. The difference between this and what you ascribe to God, is that you are predicting based on logic. In your case God KNOWS that the dog will bite the meat in exactl 3.7 seconds from when you place it on the ground and then the next time that dog with eat meat is 5 hours from then when you drop your dinner plate on the carpet. And on and on. And despite that there is a very high probability that the dog will eat the meat, he might not.

Second argument I saw mentioned a weather man. Weather men predict the weather using scientific measurements and instruments and logical assumptions. They can never predict with 100% accuracy (notice they'll say there's a 79% chance of rain). Hence the don't KNOW what the weather will be. And even if they predict the weather, things will inevitably change and after 2 weeks or so there's no way to know how the weather will be because things change. But according to you, your God will know.

Basically several of you are trying to compare the use of probability mathematics with God knowing all thigns past, present, and future.

But yes, if a being, ANY being, could know the future, then that means that the future is predetermined. Predestination makes free will impossible because if my choices are known before I make them, then no matter what I do I can't change them. So indeed I would have no free will. There are many reasons I'm an atheist, this concept is one of them.

Funny and lame at the same time, attempting to argue foreknowledge = "lack of freewill".

I also find it humorous that atheists proselytize more than any "religious group" I've ever encountered.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
I also find it humorous that atheists proselytize more than any "religious group" I've ever encountered.

It's humorous, because it's your fantasy planet and you're hallucinating.

Do we really need a poll asking if who here has been approached by a person of faith vs an atheist who attempted to convert or preach to them? Arguing demonstrably false facts is the tenet of the religious though, so keep at it.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

I predict that you will not be convinced by this argument, however. Of course, if I'm right, then you lack free will by your own argument.

ZV

:heart:

Win

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: sourceninja
Fact: Arguing with religion will never work. Logic, Reason, and Rational Thought are the exact opposite of faith. If they were not then faith would be called logic, reason, or rational.

Your best bet is to just ignore then and try to spread logic, reason, and rational thought to children so they don't grow up to be idiots.

Does not compute. Many of the great thinkers in the history of the world were "men of faith".

BTW, "faith" != "religion". So many posters here who argue against "faith" are apparently not intelligent enough to realize this.

And for the people blast GodlessAstronomer for making a "troll" post - maybe he is genuinely curious how the twin "soul" thing is worked out. Just because a person doesn't subscribe to a particular religion/belief/philosophy etc. does not preclude curiosity about it.

Oh I'm totally aware you can have faith in non-religious ideas. My comment still holds water when applied there as well.

Even the great thinkers were blind idiots in areas where they only had faith. Facts, logic, and reasoning no matter how small should always trump faith.

Although in regards to religion, House said it best with these quotes:

Rational arguments don?t usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.

What I have difficulty with is the whole concept of belief. Faith isn?t based on logic and experience.

Religion is a symptom of irrational belief and groundless hope

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Incorrect. Perfect predictive ability does not negate free will. If a weather man perfectly predicts the weather, does he control it? Of course not. If God is able to perfectly predict the actions of humans, that does not negate free will, it merely ascribes to God the ability to perfectly predict the actions of a free individual.

I predict that you will not be convinced by this argument, however. Of course, if I'm right, then you lack free will by your own argument.

ZV

I disagree, especially with your analogy.

Weather does not have free will. It is bound by the laws of nature, and the forces that are acted upon it. That is why (theoretically, not practically since we don't have perfect knowledge) that weather is perfectly predictable. Given a certain set of circumstances weather will always react in the same way. That is how natural law works.

Perfect predictability relies on the fact that given a certain set of circumstances we will react in the same way every time. If we can be broken down to this level, then it would be entirely possible to predict the future entirely. One can then assert, though, since God put natural laws into place, created the starting point, and also created each human such that they would react in a certain way given a certain set of circumstances, then we don't have free will, only the illusion.

Just to clear it up, I do not believe in free will.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: actuarial
Just to clear it up, I do not believe in free will.

Am I the only one here seeing some amount of irony in this statement?

 

[VoteQuimby]

Maybe you should pray to God and ask him how full your soul tank is.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Incorrect. Perfect predictive ability does not negate free will. If a weather man perfectly predicts the weather, does he control it? Of course not. If God is able to perfectly predict the actions of humans, that does not negate free will, it merely ascribes to God the ability to perfectly predict the actions of a free individual.

I predict that you will not be convinced by this argument, however. Of course, if I'm right, then you lack free will by your own argument.

ZV

The crux of the issue is that if the weather man perfectly predicts the weather, then the weather cannot do anything but what he predicted. Doesn't matter if the weather man controls the weather or not. The ability to predict it perfectly means that it has a set path from which it cannot deviate.

If god knows what I am going to do with perfect accuracy, then I can't do anything else. From my finite perspective I may seem to be making choices in my day-to-day life, but God knows the myriad of interdependent factors that were set in motion when he created the universe that would inevitably result in my existence. I am not some mysterious hole in the fabric of the mechanical universe, but a result of it that could be predicted as easily as any other complex chemical reaction by a being that knew all the facts, as God presumably does.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Thanks for the great replies so far guys. I think some of my questions have been answered fairly satisfactorily.

Originally posted by: NesuD
That being said I don't believe the soul is created before conception in the frst place. I believe that the soul exists long before conception.

This seems to make more sense than the "life begins at conception" thing, which leads to a confusing mess of soul accounting.

A few people have commented on my name to suggest that I'm aggressive or militant. To be fair I'd just like to offer an explanation. My user name comes a passage in a Sam Harris book titled Letter to a Christian Nation:

All complex life on earth has developed from simpler life-forms over billions of years. This is a fact that no longer admits intelligent dispute. If you doubt that human beings evolved from prior species, you may as well doubt that the sun is a star. Granted, the sun doesn't seem like an ordinary star, but we know it is a star that just happens to be relatively close to the earth. Imagine your potential for embarrassment if your religious faith rested on the presumption that the sun was not a star at all. Imagine millions of Christian in the United States spending hundreds of millions of dollars each year to battle the godless astronomers and astrophysicists on this point. Imagine them working passionately to get their unfounded notions about the sun taught in our nation's schools. This is exactly the situation you are in with respect to evolution.

Hope that clears something up.

 

[oiprocs]

Great thread! Will read when I get to hell!

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Two unique sets of DNA (matching but still unique; one could be damaged, the other remain undamaged), two individual consciousnesses. I honestly believe that once you have that unique genetic identity you have an associated unique spiritual identity.

I think that's a very interesting comment. My brother and I are genetically identical. If I made a clone of myself it still wouldn't be as genetically similar to me as my brother is. So in fact I don't have a unique genetic identity.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Two unique sets of DNA (matching but still unique; one could be damaged, the other remain undamaged), two individual consciousnesses. I honestly believe that once you have that unique genetic identity you have an associated unique spiritual identity.

I think that's a very interesting comment. My brother and I are genetically identical. If I made a clone of myself it still wouldn't be as genetically similar to me as my brother is. So in fact I don't have a unique genetic identity.

No, you still do. If I somehow mutated or damaged your DNA my action would only affect you, not your brother. Your DNA might be identical to his, but it's still uniquely yours.

The word unique in this case isn't intended to refer to the characteristics of the DNA (which are identical, matching) but the fact that each set of DNA is a closed set, not affecting or overlapping another set. For unique, read "distinct".

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Fair enough. Do worms have souls? Because if they do, when you cut them in half they become two distinct genetic identities. Does God issue another soul? (This one is mostly a joke ).

 

[TheNinja]

It's simple. A soul is not a physical item. It's spiritual. Therefore you can both have a spiritual soul.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Fair enough. Do worms have souls? Because if they do, when you cut them in half they become distinct genetic identities. Does God issue another soul? (This one is mostly a joke ).

I knew the conversation was going to go there too. One of the primary weaknesses of my answer methodology is that I mixed the "human perception to start of life", which is relative, with the "assignment of souls", which is at least hypothetically absolute, (since those questions are mixed in your OP) rather than separating them out.

 

[rudeguy]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

of course we have free will. God exists outside of time, so even before Eve bit the apple, he would know what would happen to me. I have the will to do whatever I want, God just already knows what I'm going to do.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: NSFW

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

of course we have free will. God exists outside of time, so even before Eve bit the apple, he would know what would happen to me. I have the will to do whatever I want, God just already knows what I'm going to do.

So the question is, why would God test you or even give a shit. He knows exactly what you are going to do. So why do you have to go to church? Why do you have to pray? He already knows what you need.

The whole concept is a crock of shit.

The whole concept doesn't make any sense. There is some invisible guy in the sky who wants me to believe in him, but refuses to supply evidence based on some code of conduct and rules he refuses to give. He then allows mankind to bastardize what little teachings he gave some primitive bastards in a desert and condemns everyone who won't believe in him even though he knows if they will or not before they are born?

Apparently he also has child like whims and wants, kills for no reason, hates for no reason, punishes on whims and actually gives a shit about us as if are actions actually matter and needs to pass judgement on us even though he already knows everything we will do.

This has never made sense to me. I got in deep trouble for brining this up when I was 6. I got hit by a nun for bringing this up when I was 9. And I made my mom cry when I brought this up when I was 15. Because once you think about it, the whole thing is so disjointed it can only be explained as being an invention of humans.

 

[manlymatt83]

I'm not a Christian. In fact, I'm not that religious. But I believe life begins at conception. If it splits into two, that's what nature did, so that's what's done.

I do believe in a "soul". I'm not sure what happens to it - where it goes after death. Perhaps into the ground never to be seen again. Or perhaps there's a heaven. Who the hell knows.

But one thing I do know is that life begins at conception. A fertilized egg is a baby, plain and simple.