-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
Question for Christians
Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
thraashman
Lifer
I find it kind of amusing some people who are trying to use analogies of predictions to show how God can know the future without affecting free will. The problems with your arguments are many.
First I saw, dog and piece of meat. True, you can predict that a dog will go for a piece of meat if you put it in front of him. The difference between this and what you ascribe to God, is that you are predicting based on logic. In your case God KNOWS that the dog will bite the meat in exactl 3.7 seconds from when you place it on the ground and then the next time that dog with eat meat is 5 hours from then when you drop your dinner plate on the carpet. And on and on. And despite that there is a very high probability that the dog will eat the meat, he might not.
Second argument I saw mentioned a weather man. Weather men predict the weather using scientific measurements and instruments and logical assumptions. They can never predict with 100% accuracy (notice they'll say there's a 79% chance of rain). Hence the don't KNOW what the weather will be. And even if they predict the weather, things will inevitably change and after 2 weeks or so there's no way to know how the weather will be because things change. But according to you, your God will know.
Basically several of you are trying to compare the use of probability mathematics with God knowing all thigns past, present, and future.
But yes, if a being, ANY being, could know the future, then that means that the future is predetermined. Predestination makes free will impossible because if my choices are known before I make them, then no matter what I do I can't change them. So indeed I would have no free will. There are many reasons I'm an atheist, this concept is one of them.
First I saw, dog and piece of meat. True, you can predict that a dog will go for a piece of meat if you put it in front of him. The difference between this and what you ascribe to God, is that you are predicting based on logic. In your case God KNOWS that the dog will bite the meat in exactl 3.7 seconds from when you place it on the ground and then the next time that dog with eat meat is 5 hours from then when you drop your dinner plate on the carpet. And on and on. And despite that there is a very high probability that the dog will eat the meat, he might not.
Second argument I saw mentioned a weather man. Weather men predict the weather using scientific measurements and instruments and logical assumptions. They can never predict with 100% accuracy (notice they'll say there's a 79% chance of rain). Hence the don't KNOW what the weather will be. And even if they predict the weather, things will inevitably change and after 2 weeks or so there's no way to know how the weather will be because things change. But according to you, your God will know.
Basically several of you are trying to compare the use of probability mathematics with God knowing all thigns past, present, and future.
But yes, if a being, ANY being, could know the future, then that means that the future is predetermined. Predestination makes free will impossible because if my choices are known before I make them, then no matter what I do I can't change them. So indeed I would have no free will. There are many reasons I'm an atheist, this concept is one of them.
Flipped Gazelle
Diamond Member
Funny and lame at the same time, attempting to argue foreknowledge = "lack of freewill".
I also find it humorous that atheists proselytize more than any "religious group" I've ever encountered.
jonks
Lifer
It's humorous, because it's your fantasy planet and you're hallucinating.
Do we really need a poll asking if who here has been approached by a person of faith vs an atheist who attempted to convert or preach to them? Arguing demonstrably false facts is the tenet of the religious though, so keep at it.
PlasmaBomb
Lifer
:heart:
Win
sourceninja
Diamond Member
Oh I'm totally aware you can have faith in non-religious ideas. My comment still holds water when applied there as well.
Even the great thinkers were blind idiots in areas where they only had faith. Facts, logic, and reasoning no matter how small should always trump faith.
Although in regards to religion, House said it best with these quotes:
Rational arguments don?t usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.
What I have difficulty with is the whole concept of belief. Faith isn?t based on logic and experience.
Religion is a symptom of irrational belief and groundless hope
I disagree, especially with your analogy.
Weather does not have free will. It is bound by the laws of nature, and the forces that are acted upon it. That is why (theoretically, not practically since we don't have perfect knowledge) that weather is perfectly predictable. Given a certain set of circumstances weather will always react in the same way. That is how natural law works.
Perfect predictability relies on the fact that given a certain set of circumstances we will react in the same way every time. If we can be broken down to this level, then it would be entirely possible to predict the future entirely. One can then assert, though, since God put natural laws into place, created the starting point, and also created each human such that they would react in a certain way given a certain set of circumstances, then we don't have free will, only the illusion.
Just to clear it up, I do not believe in free will.
VoteQuimby
Senior member
Maybe you should pray to God and ask him how full your soul tank is.
S
SlitheryDee
The crux of the issue is that if the weather man perfectly predicts the weather, then the weather cannot do anything but what he predicted. Doesn't matter if the weather man controls the weather or not. The ability to predict it perfectly means that it has a set path from which it cannot deviate.
If god knows what I am going to do with perfect accuracy, then I can't do anything else. From my finite perspective I may seem to be making choices in my day-to-day life, but God knows the myriad of interdependent factors that were set in motion when he created the universe that would inevitably result in my existence. I am not some mysterious hole in the fabric of the mechanical universe, but a result of it that could be predicted as easily as any other complex chemical reaction by a being that knew all the facts, as God presumably does.
GodlessAstronomer
Lifer
Thanks for the great replies so far guys. I think some of my questions have been answered fairly satisfactorily.
This seems to make more sense than the "life begins at conception" thing, which leads to a confusing mess of soul accounting.
A few people have commented on my name to suggest that I'm aggressive or militant. To be fair I'd just like to offer an explanation. My user name comes a passage in a Sam Harris book titled Letter to a Christian Nation:
Hope that clears something up.
This seems to make more sense than the "life begins at conception" thing, which leads to a confusing mess of soul accounting.
A few people have commented on my name to suggest that I'm aggressive or militant. To be fair I'd just like to offer an explanation. My user name comes a passage in a Sam Harris book titled Letter to a Christian Nation:
Hope that clears something up.
GodlessAstronomer
Lifer
I think that's a very interesting comment. My brother and I are genetically identical. If I made a clone of myself it still wouldn't be as genetically similar to me as my brother is. So in fact I don't have a unique genetic identity.
AreaCode707
Lifer
No, you still do. If I somehow mutated or damaged your DNA my action would only affect you, not your brother. Your DNA might be identical to his, but it's still uniquely yours.
The word unique in this case isn't intended to refer to the characteristics of the DNA (which are identical, matching) but the fact that each set of DNA is a closed set, not affecting or overlapping another set. For unique, read "distinct".
GodlessAstronomer
Lifer
Fair enough. Do worms have souls? Because if they do, when you cut them in half they become two distinct genetic identities. Does God issue another soul? (This one is mostly a joke 😉).
AreaCode707
Lifer
🙂 I knew the conversation was going to go there too. One of the primary weaknesses of my answer methodology is that I mixed the "human perception to start of life", which is relative, with the "assignment of souls", which is at least hypothetically absolute, (since those questions are mixed in your OP) rather than separating them out.
sourceninja
Diamond Member
So the question is, why would God test you or even give a shit. He knows exactly what you are going to do. So why do you have to go to church? Why do you have to pray? He already knows what you need.
The whole concept is a crock of shit.
The whole concept doesn't make any sense. There is some invisible guy in the sky who wants me to believe in him, but refuses to supply evidence based on some code of conduct and rules he refuses to give. He then allows mankind to bastardize what little teachings he gave some primitive bastards in a desert and condemns everyone who won't believe in him even though he knows if they will or not before they are born?
Apparently he also has child like whims and wants, kills for no reason, hates for no reason, punishes on whims and actually gives a shit about us as if are actions actually matter and needs to pass judgement on us even though he already knows everything we will do.
This has never made sense to me. I got in deep trouble for brining this up when I was 6. I got hit by a nun for bringing this up when I was 9. And I made my mom cry when I brought this up when I was 15. Because once you think about it, the whole thing is so disjointed it can only be explained as being an invention of humans.
manlymatt83
Lifer
I'm not a Christian. In fact, I'm not that religious. But I believe life begins at conception. If it splits into two, that's what nature did, so that's what's done.
I do believe in a "soul". I'm not sure what happens to it - where it goes after death. Perhaps into the ground never to be seen again. Or perhaps there's a heaven. Who the hell knows.
But one thing I do know is that life begins at conception. A fertilized egg is a baby, plain and simple.
I do believe in a "soul". I'm not sure what happens to it - where it goes after death. Perhaps into the ground never to be seen again. Or perhaps there's a heaven. Who the hell knows.
But one thing I do know is that life begins at conception. A fertilized egg is a baby, plain and simple.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 24K
-
-
