Question for Christians

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
If God knows in advance to create two souls to account for twins, when does he gain this knowledge? It can't be that he has known all along, because Christians are very insistent that God gave us free will. If we're free to decide whether or not to have sex, then God can't know the outcome before we do it (if he knows we will, then we're not free, we're merely riding along in a pre-determined train of life).

Incorrect. Perfect predictive ability does not negate free will. If a weather man perfectly predicts the weather, does he control it? Of course not. If God is able to perfectly predict the actions of humans, that does not negate free will, it merely ascribes to God the ability to perfectly predict the actions of a free individual.

I predict that you will not be convinced by this argument, however. Of course, if I'm right, then you lack free will by your own argument. 😉

ZV

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

Evidence proving the existence or non-exsitence of a divine creator will never be found. Therefore, faith is an integral part of both christian belief and atheism.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: guyver01
I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

No crisis here. Obviously I'm an atheist and I make no secret of that, but I am genuinely curious (not in a mean-spirited way) about how Christians deal with this problem.

Why is it a problem at all?

Or are you just deliberately stupid? 😕

It's a troll post. The question is absolutely absurd. I'm a fairly staunch atheist myself and I can readily admit that it's an idiotic question.

Glad to see ZV bring some solid, easy answers to this troll post. :thumbsup:

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: guyver01
I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

No crisis here. Obviously I'm an atheist and I make no secret of that, but I am genuinely curious (not in a mean-spirited way) about how Christians deal with this problem.

I'm sure there is some contradicting passage in the bible that addresses this.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

God may know your future actions, but He doesn't determine them.

If he knows them, then is what sense are they your actions? Even if he doesn't determine them, if he knows your future actions then you're not free to choose them. If you really had the freedom to choose then what if you chose something that he hadn't predicted? The fact that he knows what you will choose means than the choice isn't really yours - it is predetermined, somehow encoded in the fabric of space and time.

Even more important is that god must have known before you were conceived that you would become a dirty little atheist and therefore be condemned to hell for eternity. Free will or not, he's clearly a bastard.

So God should deny existence to people who won't accept him in their lifetime? Apparently it's important to God that people have freedom to reject him. If everyone born became a Christian without fail, it would really make it look like we don't have a choice. God may be aware of your ultimate decision but he doesn't cut you off prior to birth and deny you a life of self-seeking pleasure before you pass into eternity. The fact that man sins with impunity means God is more interested in giving you a chance, rather than consigning you to eternal damnation the instant you sin.

In regard to God's awareness of the future: How does foreknowledge constitute predetermination? I think saying it does is just wishful thinking.

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

Evidence proving the existence or non-exsitence of a divine creator will never be found. Therefore, faith is an integral part of both christian belief and atheism.

Evidence is found continuously to debunk the claims of the faithful.

Biology, physics, anthropology, ethics, astronomy, and other branches of science are constantly discovering wonders that directly contradict the Bible or established religious beliefs.

While it is true that no one can say with 100% certainty one way or the other in regards to the existance of a divine being, one can, however, safely asert that the god of the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qu'ran, or the Jewish Torah does not exist. There may be "something" out there -- be it a thing with personality or a mere energy force -- but it does not care what we eat, who we have sex with, who we marry, what days we work, or if we worship it, let alone if we happen to choose the correct religion out of thousands.

 

[skillyho]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

Evidence proving the existence or non-exsitence of a divine creator will never be found. Therefore, faith is an integral part of both christian belief and atheism.

Evidence is found continuously to debunk the claims of the faithful.

Biology, physics, anthropology, ethics, astronomy, and other branches of science are constantly discovering wonders that directly contradict the Bible or established religious beliefs.

While it is true that no one can say with 100% certainty one way or the other in regards to the existance of a divine being, one can, however, safely asert that the god of the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qu'ran, or the Jewish Torah does not exist. There may be "something" out there -- be it a thing with personality or a mere energy force -- but it does not care what we eat, who we have sex with, who we marry, what days we work, or if we worship it, let alone if we happen to choose the correct religion out of thousands.

Evidence is found to continuously prove the existence of God, and the rewards of faith, in a Christians life as well. I trust my experiences, my relationship with God though Jesus Christ, more than your hyperlinks or theological ramblings.

No offense intended, but I'm trying to avoid that part of the thread when we start posting links to creationism vs evolution and other nonsense that puts us in a circle of attacking the validity of our respective sources. It's faith. It's simple.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: skillyho

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

Evidence proving the existence or non-exsitence of a divine creator will never be found. Therefore, faith is an integral part of both christian belief and atheism.

Evidence is found continuously to debunk the claims of the faithful.

Biology, physics, anthropology, ethics, astronomy, and other branches of science are constantly discovering wonders that directly contradict the Bible or established religious beliefs.

While it is true that no one can say with 100% certainty one way or the other in regards to the existance of a divine being, one can, however, safely asert that the god of the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qu'ran, or the Jewish Torah does not exist. There may be "something" out there -- be it a thing with personality or a mere energy force -- but it does not care what we eat, who we have sex with, who we marry, what days we work, or if we worship it, let alone if we happen to choose the correct religion out of thousands.

Evidence is found to continuously prove the existence of God, and the rewards of faith, in a Christians life as well. I trust my experiences, my relationship with God though Jesus Christ, more than your hyperlinks or theological ramblings.

No offense intended, but I'm trying to avoid that part of the thread when we start posting links to creationism vs evolution and other nonsense that puts us in a circle of attacking the validity of our respective sources. It's faith. It's simple.

No, there is no evidence to prove the existence of God. You said yourself that it's all about faith, which precludes evidence. Not only is there no evidence, but there can't be evidence.

Now, if you have faith, good for you. It's just that some people (myself included) are unwilling to believe in something that doesn't have evidence to back it up.

I don't have a problem with people who believe in God because there's technically no evidence to disprove his existence either, and besides, it's all in a totally different realm than science anyway. Some people find it important. Others don't. But don't say that there's evidence to "prove" the existence of God, because there isn't.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

Evidence proving the existence or non-exsitence of a divine creator will never be found. Therefore, faith is an integral part of both christian belief and atheism.

Evidence is found continuously to debunk the claims of the faithful.

Biology, physics, anthropology, ethics, astronomy, and other branches of science are constantly discovering wonders that directly contradict the Bible or established religious beliefs.

While it is true that no one can say with 100% certainty one way or the other in regards to the existance of a divine being, one can, however, safely asert that the god of the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qu'ran, or the Jewish Torah does not exist. There may be "something" out there -- be it a thing with personality or a mere energy force -- but it does not care what we eat, who we have sex with, who we marry, what days we work, or if we worship it, let alone if we happen to choose the correct religion out of thousands.

[/quote]


Many scientists feel that their studies reaffirm their faith and there are some quite convincing arguments.

When you categorically state that "the god of the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qu'ran, or the Jewish Torah does not exist", I feel you presume too much.

The last part of your paragraph more or less sums up my own views on the matter.

The views at either extreme (christianity, aethism) really have more in common than those who adhere to each position appear willing to acknowledge: both require maintaining a stance in the absence of definitive evidence.

 

[SlitheryDee]

The zygotes that god knew were going to split were issued two souls. The ones that he knew would combine were issued one soul located equidistantly between them. This is a question that invites people who want to believe in souls and such to make something up. No answer is any better than another. After all, it's likely that they are all incorrect.

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: skillyho

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!

That's what I'm thinking. Approaching this from a logical standpoint is worthless. Anybody who's given this stuff even a second of thought knows it doesn't make sense. People make up their own reality.

Or, in many cases, ignore reality altogether.

Having faith in something is fine. Ignoring contradicting evidence and clinging to that faith because of security, fear, or stubborness is foolish.

Evidence proving the existence or non-exsitence of a divine creator will never be found. Therefore, faith is an integral part of both christian belief and atheism.

Evidence is found continuously to debunk the claims of the faithful.

Biology, physics, anthropology, ethics, astronomy, and other branches of science are constantly discovering wonders that directly contradict the Bible or established religious beliefs.

While it is true that no one can say with 100% certainty one way or the other in regards to the existance of a divine being, one can, however, safely asert that the god of the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qu'ran, or the Jewish Torah does not exist. There may be "something" out there -- be it a thing with personality or a mere energy force -- but it does not care what we eat, who we have sex with, who we marry, what days we work, or if we worship it, let alone if we happen to choose the correct religion out of thousands.

Evidence is found to continuously prove the existence of God, and the rewards of faith, in a Christians life as well. I trust my experiences, my relationship with God though Jesus Christ, more than your hyperlinks or theological ramblings.

No offense intended, but I'm trying to avoid that part of the thread when we start posting links to creationism vs evolution and other nonsense that puts us in a circle of attacking the validity of our respective sources. It's faith. It's simple.

If there is evidence to prove the existance of any god, I'd be excited to see it. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Were there actual evidence to support such a claim I don't think we'd be having this discussion and we'd all be eating fish on Fridays or avoiding pork or some other nonsense.

As I said, faith is one thing but blind adherence to the scribblings of people in Iron Age Palestine in spite of mountains of evidence contradicting those writings is ridiculous.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier:

While I cannot say there is no god of any sort I can claim with a high degree of certainty that the god of the Bible that created man from dust and woman from a rib, flooded the whole earth, dictates what one should or should not eat, who one should marry, how one should have sex, how one should take slaves, how one should commit genocide, that offers forgiveness through a grisly human sacrifice, and who will punish the creatures he loves with an eternity of unspeakable and unimaginable torture should they not blindly and completely give themselves to him despite scientific evidence, reason, and common sense that demands otherwise, that this god does not exist.

There may be some kind of powerful being or energy force that we could interpret as "god" but the god one would learn of in the Bible, in church, in Synagogue, etc. exists as a contradiction and a reminder of earlier times when people explained everything with the supernatural.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: dud
I am a person of faith. I do not come to the forums to flaunt my beliefs or try to coerce anyone to believe what I believe.

And I don't take the subway or go to the airport to listen to bible thumpers or get my thetans counted or whatever but I don't have much of a choice then either. If you don't want to engage just do what I do and shake your head a little and keep walking.

(I've never been approached in public or at my home by a person of no faith seeking to convert me)

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

God may know your future actions, but He doesn't determine them.

If he knows them, then is what sense are they your actions? Even if he doesn't determine them, if he knows your future actions then you're not free to choose them. If you really had the freedom to choose then what if you chose something that he hadn't predicted? The fact that he knows what you will choose means than the choice isn't really yours - it is predetermined, somehow encoded in the fabric of space and time.

Even more important is that god must have known before you were conceived that you would become a dirty little atheist and therefore be condemned to hell for eternity. Free will or not, he's clearly a bastard.

So God should deny existence to people who won't accept him in their lifetime? Apparently it's important to God that people have freedom to reject him. If everyone born became a Christian without fail, it would really make it look like we don't have a choice. God may be aware of your ultimate decision but he doesn't cut you off prior to birth and deny you a life of self-seeking pleasure before you pass into eternity. The fact that man sins with impunity means God is more interested in giving you a chance, rather than consigning you to eternal damnation the instant you sin.

In regard to God's awareness of the future: How does foreknowledge constitute predetermination? I think saying it does is just wishful thinking.

Yes, I think any god that loved his creation would easily deny the finite existence of a person to avoid infinite damnation in hell of that same person. In a similar vain, I think most rational people would avoid procreating if they knew their offspring would turn out to be a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. God must have the ability to prevent human suffering (which, in our case, is eternal suffering in hell) and chooses not to. So, my point stands: an all-powerful, all-knowing god, if he exists, must be a cold-hearted bastard.

Also, the idea that god is giving anyone a chance is nonsense. If he exists, he has basically created a universe that shows no signs of his existence, and would operate the same with or without him. If he truly wanted to give any of us a chance, his own creation wouldn't continuously provide evidence that his existence is, for all intents and purposes, inconsequential.

 

[Ruptga]

We don't have souls, we are souls.

It may've already been said, but the idea of soul vs. body is a remnant of Greek culture that the West absorbed; dualism isn't a Christian idea.

 

[Auggie]

Originally posted by: jonks

(I've never been approached in public or at my home by a person of no faith seeking to convert me)

Ever see Penn Jillette's take on this?

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=245243&comments=1

 

[Auggie]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Yes, I think any god that loved his creation would easily deny the finite existence of a person to avoid infinite damnation in hell of that same person. In a similar vain, I think most rational people would avoid procreating if they knew their offspring would turn out to be a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. God must have the ability to prevent human suffering (which, in our case, is eternal suffering in hell) and chooses not to. So, my point stands: an all-powerful, all-knowing god, if he exists, must be a cold-hearted bastard.

What is your understanding of hell? The Catholic understanding isn't necessarily torment and agony, it's separation from God - it's whatever you choose in this life. You choose heaven or hell, God merely gives you what you ask for.

From a Catholic apologetics website:

Hell was not created by God. Hell was created when angels freely chose to eternally separate themselves from God. Because angels and human beings were given free will, God allowed for the possibility of hell, but he did not directly create it.

Hell is the eternal separation of creatures from their Creator. The angels who fell did this by one irrevocable choice. Humans' choice for heaven or hell is settled irrevocably at their deaths. The punishments of hell are entirely self-inflicted, so we cannot say that hell is an "external motivation" created by God to inspire humans to be good. At most, God may allow human fear of hell to work as such an "external motivator."

 

[sourceninja]

Fact: Arguing with religion will never work. Logic, Reason, and Rational Thought are the exact opposite of faith. If they were not then faith would be called logic, reason, or rational.

Your best bet is to just ignore then and try to spread logic, reason, and rational thought to children so they don't grow up to be idiots.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Auggie

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Yes, I think any god that loved his creation would easily deny the finite existence of a person to avoid infinite damnation in hell of that same person. In a similar vain, I think most rational people would avoid procreating if they knew their offspring would turn out to be a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. God must have the ability to prevent human suffering (which, in our case, is eternal suffering in hell) and chooses not to. So, my point stands: an all-powerful, all-knowing god, if he exists, must be a cold-hearted bastard.

What is your understanding of hell? The Catholic understanding isn't necessarily torment and agony, it's separation from God - it's whatever you choose in this life. You choose heaven or hell, God merely gives you what you ask for.

From a Catholic apologetics website:

Hell was not created by God. Hell was created when angels freely chose to eternally separate themselves from God. Because angels and human beings were given free will, God allowed for the possibility of hell, but he did not directly create it.

Hell is the eternal separation of creatures from their Creator. The angels who fell did this by one irrevocable choice. Humans' choice for heaven or hell is settled irrevocably at their deaths. The punishments of hell are entirely self-inflicted, so we cannot say that hell is an "external motivation" created by God to inspire humans to be good. At most, God may allow human fear of hell to work as such an "external motivator."

I made no reference to Catholicism, but they can describe hell however they want, as it doesn't change the generally widespread understanding among almost all religions that hell is nothing short of infinite misery.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
Fact: Arguing with religion will never work. Logic, Reason, and Rational Thought are the exact opposite of faith. If they were not then faith would be called logic, reason, or rational.

Your best bet is to just ignore then and try to spread logic, reason, and rational thought to children so they don't grow up to be idiots.

Does not compute. Many of the great thinkers in the history of the world were "men of faith".

BTW, "faith" != "religion". So many posters here who argue against "faith" are apparently not intelligent enough to realize this.

And for the people blast GodlessAstronomer for making a "troll" post - maybe he is genuinely curious how the twin "soul" thing is worked out. Just because a person doesn't subscribe to a particular religion/belief/philosophy etc. does not preclude curiosity about it.

 

[Kadarin]

The thing about this concept is that at present there is no evidence whatsoever that there even is such a thing as a soul, and nor is there any way at this time to "prove" through observation or experimentation that a being either has it or does not. Since it's all a matter of faith and theology, the best we can do is interpret the existing body of religious tradition and make our best guess based on that.

Of course, if at some point we do physically observe the "soul", we can then quantify it and thus make sound, confident statements about its nature based on that observation.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

God may know your future actions, but He doesn't determine them.

If he knows them, then is what sense are they your actions? Even if he doesn't determine them, if he knows your future actions then you're not free to choose them. If you really had the freedom to choose then what if you chose something that he hadn't predicted? The fact that he knows what you will choose means than the choice isn't really yours - it is predetermined, somehow encoded in the fabric of space and time.

Even more important is that god must have known before you were conceived that you would become a dirty little atheist and therefore be condemned to hell for eternity. Free will or not, he's clearly a bastard.

So God should deny existence to people who won't accept him in their lifetime? Apparently it's important to God that people have freedom to reject him. If everyone born became a Christian without fail, it would really make it look like we don't have a choice. God may be aware of your ultimate decision but he doesn't cut you off prior to birth and deny you a life of self-seeking pleasure before you pass into eternity. The fact that man sins with impunity means God is more interested in giving you a chance, rather than consigning you to eternal damnation the instant you sin.

In regard to God's awareness of the future: How does foreknowledge constitute predetermination? I think saying it does is just wishful thinking.

Yes, I think any god that loved his creation would easily deny the finite existence of a person to avoid infinite damnation in hell of that same person. In a similar vain, I think most rational people would avoid procreating if they knew their offspring would turn out to be a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. God must have the ability to prevent human suffering (which, in our case, is eternal suffering in hell) and chooses not to. So, my point stands: an all-powerful, all-knowing god, if he exists, must be a cold-hearted bastard.

Also, the idea that god is giving anyone a chance is nonsense. If he exists, he has basically created a universe that shows no signs of his existence, and would operate the same with or without him. If he truly wanted to give any of us a chance, his own creation wouldn't continuously provide evidence that his existence is, for all intents and purposes, inconsequential.

Thing is, God wants his creation to love him back. Humans that is, as they are the only beings capable of love. I don't think you are factoring that in. How would God get any satisfaction out of being loved if we were forced to love him? Thus we have freedom to bestow or withhold our love.

God allows human suffering because that is inherent to human freedom, which is inviolable to him. We have freedom to make bad choices for ourselves and inflict suffering on others at whim. Is it God's prescriptive will that we make the wrong choices for our lives or hurt others around us? No. But apparently God is willing to allow temporary suffering here on earth because he can use it to get people's attention or teach them life lessons. Suffering caused by fellow humans may appear unwarranted or unfair, but it is a side effect of human freedom, and God can wring personal growth and greater good out of bad things inflicted on us. Often times it is suffering that drives us to God.

As far as hell goes, there has to be a punishment for sin commensurate with the magnitude of the offense. Once you understand the enormity of sin, the easier you'll accept the enormity of the punishment. God is holy. Withholding punishment for sin would violate his holy nature. God has no choice but to punish, so we are doomed. Doomed until Jesus bore our punishment, so that we could live eternally, rather than die eternally. That is love right there.

God already tried manifesting himself here on earth in an obvious fashion and the rate of acceptance was less than universal. People still disbelieved even when witnessing miracles. Israel still rebelled against voices from heaven.. concrete evidence from any perspective. I think God chose a smarter policy of working through humans. Man is a social being and easily influenced by his fellow human. That is the means through which God is reaching people today.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Auggie

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Yes, I think any god that loved his creation would easily deny the finite existence of a person to avoid infinite damnation in hell of that same person. In a similar vain, I think most rational people would avoid procreating if they knew their offspring would turn out to be a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. God must have the ability to prevent human suffering (which, in our case, is eternal suffering in hell) and chooses not to. So, my point stands: an all-powerful, all-knowing god, if he exists, must be a cold-hearted bastard.

What is your understanding of hell? The Catholic understanding isn't necessarily torment and agony, it's separation from God - it's whatever you choose in this life. You choose heaven or hell, God merely gives you what you ask for.

From a Catholic apologetics website:

Hell was not created by God. Hell was created when angels freely chose to eternally separate themselves from God. Because angels and human beings were given free will, God allowed for the possibility of hell, but he did not directly create it.

Hell is the eternal separation of creatures from their Creator. The angels who fell did this by one irrevocable choice. Humans' choice for heaven or hell is settled irrevocably at their deaths. The punishments of hell are entirely self-inflicted, so we cannot say that hell is an "external motivation" created by God to inspire humans to be good. At most, God may allow human fear of hell to work as such an "external motivator."

I made no reference to Catholicism, but they can describe hell however they want, as it doesn't change the generally widespread understanding among almost all religions that hell is nothing short of infinite misery.

The Koran depicts quite vividly the scenes of eternal torture such as molten metal poured down your throat, etc. Nothing allegorical about that.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

God may know your future actions, but He doesn't determine them.

If he knows them, then is what sense are they your actions? Even if he doesn't determine them, if he knows your future actions then you're not free to choose them. If you really had the freedom to choose then what if you chose something that he hadn't predicted? The fact that he knows what you will choose means than the choice isn't really yours - it is predetermined, somehow encoded in the fabric of space and time.

Even more important is that god must have known before you were conceived that you would become a dirty little atheist and therefore be condemned to hell for eternity. Free will or not, he's clearly a bastard.

So God should deny existence to people who won't accept him in their lifetime? Apparently it's important to God that people have freedom to reject him. If everyone born became a Christian without fail, it would really make it look like we don't have a choice. God may be aware of your ultimate decision but he doesn't cut you off prior to birth and deny you a life of self-seeking pleasure before you pass into eternity. The fact that man sins with impunity means God is more interested in giving you a chance, rather than consigning you to eternal damnation the instant you sin.

In regard to God's awareness of the future: How does foreknowledge constitute predetermination? I think saying it does is just wishful thinking.

Yes, I think any god that loved his creation would easily deny the finite existence of a person to avoid infinite damnation in hell of that same person. In a similar vain, I think most rational people would avoid procreating if they knew their offspring would turn out to be a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. God must have the ability to prevent human suffering (which, in our case, is eternal suffering in hell) and chooses not to. So, my point stands: an all-powerful, all-knowing god, if he exists, must be a cold-hearted bastard.

Also, the idea that god is giving anyone a chance is nonsense. If he exists, he has basically created a universe that shows no signs of his existence, and would operate the same with or without him. If he truly wanted to give any of us a chance, his own creation wouldn't continuously provide evidence that his existence is, for all intents and purposes, inconsequential.

Thing is, God wants his creation to love him back. Humans that is, as they are the only beings capable of love. I don't think you are factoring that in. How would God get any satisfaction out of being loved if we were forced to love him? Thus we have freedom to bestow or withhold our love.

God allows human suffering because that is inherent to human freedom, which is inviolable to him. We have freedom to make bad choices for ourselves and inflict suffering on others at whim. Is it God's prescriptive will that we make the wrong choices for our lives or hurt others around us? No. But apparently God is willing to allow temporary suffering here on earth because he can use it to get people's attention or teach them life lessons. Suffering caused by fellow humans may appear unwarranted or unfair, but it is a side effect of human freedom, and God can wring personal growth and greater good out of bad things inflicted on us. Often times it is suffering that drives us to God.

As far as hell goes, there has to be a punishment for sin commensurate with the magnitude of the offense. Once you understand the enormity of sin, the easier you'll accept the enormity of the punishment. God is holy. Withholding punishment for sin would violate his holy nature. God has no choice but to punish, so we are doomed. Doomed until Jesus bore our punishment, so that we could live eternally, rather than die eternally. That is love right there.

God already tried manifesting himself here on earth in an obvious fashion and the rate of acceptance was less than universal. People still disbelieved even when witnessing miracles. Israel still rebelled against voices from heaven.. concrete evidence from any perspective. I think God chose a smarter policy of working through humans. Man is a social being and easily influenced by his fellow human. That is the means through which God is reaching people today.

So 5 year olds get raped and tortured to teach the rest of us lessons. Thank goodness!

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I'm an identical twin. This means that when I was conceived, a single egg was fertilized, one zygote was formed and this split into two embryos. If you believe life begins at conception (your reason for abortion laws, among other things) then you must agree that there was only one soul (one conception, one soul). So who has the soul? Me or my brother? Do we each have half a soul? How do they decide which of us goes to heaven?

Similar question for chimerism, when two embryos fuse together. What happens to the spare soul? Is it discarded? Does it go to heaven?

I always regret giving a serious answer to questions like these because there are just too many trolls on the board, but what the hell.

If we could find DNA on Mars or Europa and declare that we have found life, the same criteria applies on Earth.

Two unique sets of DNA (matching but still unique; one could be damaged, the other remain undamaged), two individual consciousnesses. I honestly believe that once you have that unique genetic identity you have an associated unique spiritual identity.

And I think that ZV's example of heads is a good one. 🙂