Red Irish
Guest
- Mar 6, 2009
- 1,605
- 0
- 0
daniel1113
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2003
- 6,448
- 0
- 0
Even more important is that god must have known before you were conceived that you would become a dirty little atheist and therefore be condemned to hell for eternity. Free will or not, he's clearly a bastard.
You really can't figure this stuff out on your own?
If I place a piece of meat in front of a hungry dog, I can be darn near certain he'll eat it, but by predicting this event, in no way have I influenced his decision in that regard. Preknowledge is completely unrelated to predetermination. Much of life is predictable, but that doesn't mean I have any control over those events, any more than weathermen control the storms they predict.
Then, if its merely prediction without foreknowledge and the nullification of free-will that would entail, God is just sitting there with a soul ready to go for each and every occasion? What happens when twins don't form, as he had predicted, and he's left with an extra soul. Does he abort it?
RoloMather
Golden Member
- Sep 23, 2008
- 1,598
- 1
- 0
You are still considering this in the aspect of time. If you remove time out of the equation, you would see that God sees all things at all time at once. Hence he knows what you are going to do tomorrow because He sees you doing it. But he doesn't determine what you will do tomorrow.
Get it?
RoloMather
Golden Member
- Sep 23, 2008
- 1,598
- 1
- 0
This is getting pretty far afield from the OPs original comments - there are tons of tangential things that arise from a discussion as basic as "when does life begin/when does a person become a person" etc.
But just to clarify, and this is something that is brought up in the link that Red Irish posted above, but asking whether or not God's knowledge of our actions negates our free will is a nonsensical question because God acts outside of the confines of time. We are forced to act in linear progression through time; meanwhile God operates outside of time, is equally and fully present for each and every moment, past, present and future, meaning that his knowledge and mode of operation is completely beyond our ability to classify or fully understand outside of what has been revealed. To anthropomorphize God from eternity and bring him into our own experience of time and cause/effect creates logical problems and isn't useful. In essence, the question is like asking "how green is a mile?" There's no rational answer because the question is irrational.
My two cents.
But just to clarify, and this is something that is brought up in the link that Red Irish posted above, but asking whether or not God's knowledge of our actions negates our free will is a nonsensical question because God acts outside of the confines of time. We are forced to act in linear progression through time; meanwhile God operates outside of time, is equally and fully present for each and every moment, past, present and future, meaning that his knowledge and mode of operation is completely beyond our ability to classify or fully understand outside of what has been revealed. To anthropomorphize God from eternity and bring him into our own experience of time and cause/effect creates logical problems and isn't useful. In essence, the question is like asking "how green is a mile?" There's no rational answer because the question is irrational.
My two cents.
dud
Diamond Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 7,635
- 73
- 91
I am a person of faith. I do not come to the forums to flaunt my beliefs or try to coerce anyone to believe what I believe.
I have never started a thread on the subject of God or religion.
I find it interesting that a user with "Godless" in his username initiated this thread. You asked an interesting question about "souls". Why? Are you just curious or are you trying to stir up a controversy on the issue? You sound like an intelligent individual ... you should know by now that this is not the place to seek such information.
I have never started a thread on the subject of God or religion.
I find it interesting that a user with "Godless" in his username initiated this thread. You asked an interesting question about "souls". Why? Are you just curious or are you trying to stir up a controversy on the issue? You sound like an intelligent individual ... you should know by now that this is not the place to seek such information.
NesuD
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 4,999
- 106
- 106
Back to part of the originial post. I won't even try to give you some king of technical answer based on some sort ogf logic because it is inconsistent to support questions of faith on logic.
However I can answer your question with a couple of questions of my own. Assuming that life begins at conception and theorizing that your soul is created at this point why would you think that after the split that occurs with identical twins there might only be half a soul for each new embryo? You weren't born with half a brain, half your limbs or half a torso were you? It just seems reasonable to assume that wouldn't be born with only half a soul either.
That being said I don't believe the soul is created before conception in the frst place. I believe that the soul exists long before conception. Christians believe that after our physical bodies have died the soul continues so my thinking tells me it likely exists before our physical bodies come into existence as well. Can't give you any religious dogma that supports this belief but I can't say that there isn't any to support the idea either.
Originally posted by: Auggie
This is getting pretty far afield from the OPs original comments - there are tons of tangential things that arise from a discussion as basic as "when does life begin/when does a person become a person" etc.
But just to clarify, and this is something that is brought up in the link that Red Irish posted above, but asking whether or not God's knowledge of our actions negates our free will is a nonsensical question because God acts outside of the confines of time. We are forced to act in linear progression through time; meanwhile God operates outside of time, is equally and fully present for each and every moment, past, present and future, meaning that his knowledge and mode of operation is completely beyond our ability to classify or fully understand outside of what has been revealed. To anthropomorphize God from eternity and bring him into our own experience of time and cause/effect creates logical problems and isn't useful. In essence, the question is like asking "how green is a mile?" There's no rational answer because the question is irrational.
My two cents.
Regardless of these 'outside of time' arguments, if the person making a choice doesn't know the 'predestined' option, then the choice still remains an exercise of free will. It's hard to be forced to follow a predetermined script if one doesn't know what the script contains. The actor is essentially left to his/her own devices, even if all choices are ultimately illusional anyway, which in a sense they are. Whether you believe in God or not, once you make a choice and move past the act of choosing, you can't go back in time and choose another outcome.
SacrosanctFiend
Diamond Member
- Oct 2, 2004
- 4,269
- 0
- 0
Wrong. There are plenty of Christians (and even whole denominations) that believe in predestination.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
- Aug 31, 2006
- 8,307
- 176
- 106
Attempting to trap a Christian with reason is about as effective as herding cats. They'll find a way to squirm out of that pesky logic and reasoning!!!
Yo, you can't apply the logic of science to something that's supernatural.
I don't think a soul is like some kind of physical matter that needs to be injected. In the body.
In fact, why should the soul even have to follow physical rules of divisions of matter?
Maybe when the soul splits, it actually becomes two souls. It's like cutting off the heads of a hydra.
If you cut off a piece of a flatworm, it grows into an entirely new worm. When a worm can do this, why can't the soul???????
AstroManLuca
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2004
- 15,628
- 5
- 81
Did you read any of his subsequent responses, or any other replies to this thread at all? Or did you just read the title and immediately type up your reply? Because GodlessAstronomer addressed this very early on.
Red Irish
Guest
- Mar 6, 2009
- 1,605
- 0
- 0
I am agnostic. I have posted links to illustrate arguments that are employed by believers such as yourself as Godless, whilst attempting to highlight inconsistencies within the Christian faith, asked for answers. The answer is simple: if you believe in an omnipotent creator, controversy and inconsistency can be explained away by the fact that he/she/it is omnipotent.
I am not defending atheism or religious beliefs; however, I feel that Godless is wrong to employ logic to attack a faith involving an omnipotent creator: where can this argument go, given that the "logical" response for a Christian is that God is omnipotent and therefore can accomplish the seemingly impossible?
In any event, we agree on one thing: "this is not the place to seek such information".
Bible does not say that human life (specifically, the "attachment" of the soul) starts at conception.
What the Bible does imply, though, is that it occurs before birth.
God assigns or attaches the soul of being to the physical body. How? Exactly when? We don't know. For those who died in the womb, or that matter for anyone, their souls lie in Sheol. Not heaven, not the lake of fire (not yet).
It's obvious that you and your brother have different souls. I don't know you or your brother, but I am assuming you think differently and act differently. That is proof enough that you are different people, and therefore have different souls. Two different people cannot share the same soul.
What the Bible does imply, though, is that it occurs before birth.
God assigns or attaches the soul of being to the physical body. How? Exactly when? We don't know. For those who died in the womb, or that matter for anyone, their souls lie in Sheol. Not heaven, not the lake of fire (not yet).
It's obvious that you and your brother have different souls. I don't know you or your brother, but I am assuming you think differently and act differently. That is proof enough that you are different people, and therefore have different souls. Two different people cannot share the same soul.
HardcoreRobot
Lifer
- Nov 7, 2000
- 16,403
- 3
- 81
The Bible makes it absolutely clear that in the ultimate plan, in the story that is our universe and all of time, God has predestined people and events.
When you take a look at things from the human perspective, limited in time, there is also free will in that we choose, we act.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 44
- 91
I can see at least two ways to address this:
1) If one also assumes omniscience, then one must agree that God knows in advance whether an embryo will split (in the case of identical twins) or combine with another embryo (chimerism) and would therefore be able to allot souls without running into the excess or paucity that you postulate.
2) There is a fundamental flaw in your question, namely the presupposition that a "soul" is an unchangeable entity that does not evolve over time. An analogous question would be: When a zygote splits into two embryos, what happens to the head? Does it split and each twin have half a head? Or does only one of the twins have a head? Obviously, such a question is absurd.
----------
Additionally, the phrase "life begins at conception" is nothing more than semantic shorthand. It avoids the ambiguity of the more accurate statement that "the path to life begins at conception". Whether "life" as we commonly understand it does or does not begin at conception (I am personally inclined to believe that "life" does not technically begin until the fetus is viable outside the womb), the inescapable truth is that once conception has occurred, "life" is sufficiently close to inevitable that the zygote can be treated as "alive" for legal purposes.
ZV
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter