Question for Christians

[GodlessAstronomer]

I'm an identical twin. This means that when I was conceived, a single egg was fertilized, one zygote was formed and this split into two embryos. If you believe life begins at conception (your reason for abortion laws, among other things) then you must agree that there was only one soul (one conception, one soul). So who has the soul? Me or my brother? Do we each have half a soul? How do they decide which of us goes to heaven?

Similar question for chimerism, when two embryos fuse together. What happens to the spare soul? Is it discarded? Does it go to heaven?

 

[biggestmuff]

Judging by the majority of your posts, I'd say your brother is the one with the soul.

 

[nublikescake]

Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Judging by the majority of your posts, I'd say your brother is the one with the soul.

Ouch! :laugh:

 

[guyver01]

I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

 

[RESmonkey]

Originally posted by: guyver01
I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

I think he's just playing the christians into contradicting themselves.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: guyver01
I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

No crisis here. Obviously I'm an atheist and I make no secret of that, but I am genuinely curious (not in a mean-spirited way) about how Christians deal with this problem.

 

[Auggie]

Quick and dirty answer: If you accept that there exists a God that imparts a soul to each human being, it's hardly difficult to accept that God could impart a soul to each split zygote at whatever blastocyst stage that the original blastocyst cleaved into two separate, viable embryos.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: guyver01
I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

I think he's just playing the christians into contradicting themselves.

It's already a contradiction, rather I'm giving the religious folks an opportunity to explain this to me. I doubt they will have an answer that is totally satisfactory to the critical mind, but I think it's an interesting predicament.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Auggie
Quick and dirty answer: If you accept that there exists a God that imparts a soul to each human being, it's hardly difficult to accept that God could impart a soul to each split zygote at whatever blastocyst stage that the original blastocyst cleaved into two separate, viable embryos.

If god assigns two souls to a zygote that is going to split, how does he account for the chimera? Here we have two separate embryos combining. Before they combine, does only one have a soul? Or do they have half a soul each?

Does every potential human being have a soul?

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I'm an identical twin. This means that when I was conceived, a single egg was fertilized, one zygote was formed and this split into two embryos. If you believe life begins at conception (your reason for abortion laws, among other things) then you must agree that there was only one soul (one conception, one soul). So who has the soul? Me or my brother? Do we each have half a soul? How do they decide which of us goes to heaven?

Similar question for chimerism, when two embryos fuse together. What happens to the spare soul? Is it discarded? Does it go to heaven?

Why would anyone have to accept that there was only one soul at conception?

God made you both they way you are in the way he intended... therefore he issued a soul to each of you. The biological technicalities of how he formed you both have nothing to do with each of you having an independent and intact soul.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: guyver01
I find it quite fascinating that someone who has the name "Godless" is having a crisis of faith.

No crisis here. Obviously I'm an atheist and I make no secret of that, but I am genuinely curious (not in a mean-spirited way) about how Christians deal with this problem.

who says there is a "problem"

 

[Auggie]

Is the point here trying to undermine the idea that life is precious from conception (immediately after fertilization) since the embryo is still so incredibly plastic at that point?

Regarding the "chimera" situation, it's entirely possible that God could withhold the process of body and soul joining given the imminent or temporary nature of one or more of those embryos.

Is this helpful?

 

[Auggie]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Does every potential human being have a soul?

We don't know - it's possible. We can't be certain either way. Which is why pro-lifers argue that life should be protected from the moment of conception. If God had somehow communicated to us that body and soul were enjoined at a certain time, that would certainly make things easier.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Why would anyone have to accept that there was only one soul at conception?

God made you both they way you are in the way he intended... therefore he issued a soul to each of you. The biological technicalities of how he formed you both have nothing to do with each of you having an independent and intact soul.

When are these souls created? When is the decision made to create these souls?

If God knows in advance to create two souls to account for twins, when does he gain this knowledge? It can't be that he has known all along, because Christians are very insistent that God gave us free will. If we're free to decide whether or not to have sex, then God can't know the outcome before we do it (if he knows we will, then we're not free, we're merely riding along in a pre-determined train of life).

So God doesn't know before conception to create two souls, but at that moment of conception he decides to make twins from this conception and zaps up two souls? Or am I way off? Is there general agreement amongst religious people about how this goes down?

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Auggie
Is the point here trying to undermine the idea that life is precious from conception (immediately after fertilization) since the embryo is still so incredibly plastic at that point?

That's one possible outcome I had considered from this conversation.

Is this helpful?

Yes, thanks.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Auggie

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Does every potential human being have a soul?

We don't know - it's possible. We can't be certain either way. Which is why pro-lifers argue that life should be protected from the moment of conception. If God had somehow communicated to us that body and soul were enjoined at a certain time, that would certainly make things easier.

That's very helpful, thanks. One of my biggest questions was whether or not there was agreement or consensus among the religious on this issue. If not then I guess any answer I get will be nothing but speculation and it will be impossible to proceed in this discussion.

Edit - although I would argue that it's in fact not possible that every potential human being has a soul. We have the potential to clone human beings if we really wanted to, which makes every single human cell on Earth a potential human being. Scratching your nose would be genocide.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Auggie
Quick and dirty answer: If you accept that there exists a God that imparts a soul to each human being, it's hardly difficult to accept that God could impart a soul to each split zygote at whatever blastocyst stage that the original blastocyst cleaved into two separate, viable embryos.

You mean God is sitting watching every couple having sex, just so that at conception he can give the zygote a soul?

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Why would anyone have to accept that there was only one soul at conception?

God made you both they way you are in the way he intended... therefore he issued a soul to each of you. The biological technicalities of how he formed you both have nothing to do with each of you having an independent and intact soul.

When are these souls created? When is the decision made to create these souls?

If God knows in advance to create two souls to account for twins, when does he gain this knowledge?

God has had the knowledge that you were going to be an atheist twin from the moment he created the universe, that is what all knowing is.

If he wasn't all knowing then he wouldn't be much of a God now then would he?

 

[Red Irish]

If you believe in an omnipotent creator, all dilemnas can be explained by recourse to omnipotence. It is only when you don't believe that inconsistencies and problems begin to arise.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Why would anyone have to accept that there was only one soul at conception?

God made you both they way you are in the way he intended... therefore he issued a soul to each of you. The biological technicalities of how he formed you both have nothing to do with each of you having an independent and intact soul.

When are these souls created? When is the decision made to create these souls?

If God knows in advance to create two souls to account for twins, when does he gain this knowledge?

God has had the knowledge that you were going to be an atheist twin from the moment he created the universe, that is what all knowing is.

If he wasn't all knowing then he wouldn't be much of a God now then would he?

If he knew that in advance, then it's not correct to say my parents had free will. Did my mother have the free will to reject my Dad's advances the night they met? According to your world view, the answer is know. If everything is laid out in advance then we have only the illusion of free will. Our choices are predetermined and the universe is utterly determinate.

So which is it? God is all-knowing, or we have free will? You simply can't have both.

 

[rudeguy]

Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

 

[Red Irish]

Godless, omnipotence entails a capacity to resolve any apparent contradictions: either you believe or you don't.

 

[biggestmuff]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

God may know your future actions, but He doesn't determine them.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: NSFW
Life does not begin at conception. God already knew me before my dad, my grandpa or even Abraham were born.

So you must agree that human beings were never given the gift of free will?

God may know your future actions, but He doesn't determine them.

If he knows them, then is what sense are they your actions? Even if he doesn't determine them, if he knows your future actions then you're not free to choose them. If you really had the freedom to choose then what if you chose something that he hadn't predicted? The fact that he knows what you will choose means than the choice isn't really yours - it is predetermined, somehow encoded in the fabric of space and time.