Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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I quickly at various OEM sites and couldn't find any laptop with both X1E80/X1E84 and 32 GB RAM. Did I miss something?
.
Apple's been using on-package memory since the M1. Intel is using on-package memory for Lunar Lake. Nvidia ARM SoC is rumoured to feature on-package memory.

Does it make sense for Qualcomm to also pursue on package memory in the future?
yes
 

StinkyPinky

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Jul 6, 2002
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Yeah kinda annoyed the Samsung only has 16GB, I probably would have got that over the Lenovo since the wife already have a 12th gen Samsung laptop and it's really well made.

Also 40hrs battery life is pointless. Unless you live in a cave I'm pretty sure you can charge a laptop while sleeping. At that point I'd rather have a lighter or more powerful laptop. 15-20 hours is the sweet spot.
 

Ghostsonplanets

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Mar 1, 2024
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Interesting that we have Purwa between us but no announcement so far from QCOM

I wonder what they're waiting for give that they need to announce it as the silicon is shipping currently.
 

Tup3x

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Dec 31, 2016
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Apple's been using on-package memory since the M1. Intel is using on-package memory for Lunar Lake. Nvidia ARM SoC is rumoured to feature on-package memory.

Does it make sense for Qualcomm to also pursue on package memory in the future?
I'd rather see non-soldered memory than on-package memory in normal laptops. Ultra low power stuff is another matter.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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Apple doesn't release a 40 hour laptop because that would eat into their profits (why release one device when you can release a cheaper to make device with half battery life and sell twice the units for same BOM?).

How does that work? Do you think people who have laptops with batteries that don't last a day buy TWO laptops to get through the day? Apparently if you hate enough enough you lose touch with reality!
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Do you think people who have laptops with batteries that don't last a day buy TWO laptops to get through the day?
Non-Apple users just buy an extra battery :)

And I don't have evidence but people with money to burn probably buy two Macbooks, one as a backup or in case of emergencies!
 

SpudLobby

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May 18, 2022
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Interesting that we have Purwa between us but no announcement so far from QCOM

I wonder what they're waiting for give that they need to announce it as the silicon is shipping currently.
yes that’s likely right. It’s a different die, so.

Likely some significant area savings which will allow them to hit different targets
 
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Ghostsonplanets

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[Snap 8 Gen 5]

The software side of 8850 has already started, the frequency of nuvia is 5ghz, and it is estimated that the next generation will start at 4.5ghz. If you only look at the power consumption of dou, it is excellent.

 

poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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I'd rather see non-soldered memory than on-package memory in normal laptops. Ultra low power stuff is another matter.
Yea but Qualcomm is soldering RAM to the mainboard. At least on-package ram has advantages. Soldering RAM to the mainboard not so much.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Yea but Qualcomm is soldering RAM to the mainboard. At least on-package ram has advantages. Soldering RAM to the mainboard not so much.
With LPDDR, there's 3 ways to go:
1. Soldered to mainboard
2. Soldered on-package
3. LPCAMM

(2) is best for space and power savings. (3) is best for upgradeability/repairability. (1) Is a middle ground that's worse than either.

The issue with (1) though is that then Qualcomm will get to dictate the RAM price, and OEMs are not going to like that. Apparently, this is also a problem Intel's having with Lunar Lake.
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Qualcomm finally sponsored an LTT video:


About time.

They got a huge stack of all the Snapdragon X based OEM laptops. Reviews dropping on June 18th!

PS: Everybody in the comments seems to be talking about how the word "ARM" is censored in the video. Funny. It's obviously due to the Qcom v ARM lawsuit. I hope they can reach a settlement and mend their relationship.
 
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Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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Battery life for laptops only matters to a point, and that point is "when you go to sleep" - and even there it is only relevant for extreme cases where people really are on their laptop every waking hour. So I'd argue that while the M1 battery life was impressive, especially when it was put up against Apple's Intel laptops (which Apple already cherry picked from Intel's most efficient SKUs) the battery life it provided it was overkill for most.

Sure there may be a handful of people who were demanding enough in their use and using it long enough in a day that they'd run down the battery and need to charge, but that's a niche market. I think its overblown as something that will create a big wave of people towards ARM PCs (even if you accept as fact that x86 can never be as efficient as ARM, which I don't)

The "mobile heritage" argument only worked so long as Intel/AMD designed a single core that had to scale from laptops to servers (modulo different amounts of L3 etc) Once you design a second core, all that's out the window, because they can target laptops specifically with the small core. And if Intel's claims are proven correct when people get their hands on their new "small" core, I think that will easily fall into Apple's "overkill" territory for battery life - especially if you consider Apple didn't exactly put the largest "legal" battery in the M1 Air. If they had the battery life would have been TWICE as long. Can you imagine the hand wringing from some if Apple sold the Macbook Air as a slightly larger/heavier model but with forty something hours of battery life? :tearsofjoy: They didn't because they knew that was ridiculous, there's no target market for that aside from severe insomniacs.

So it doesn't matter if LL catches up with Apple/Qualcomm (and of course Apple is irrelevant as far as crazy wet dreams of ARM PCs being 50% of the Windows market) because it doesn't have to. It just needs to get from current x86 territory of "not enough battery life" to cross the Apple M1 line of "overkill". There's a lot of inertia to staying with x86, especially in the business world. Why would enterprise buyer choose ARM, given that the prices are not going to be any lower than x86? There's no upside for them choosing ARM, making this one of those "you'll never get fired for buying IBM" type of situations. Consumers may buy ARM, but they won't CHOOSE ARM. They'll just buy a PC at Walmart or off Amazon and not really realize what they're getting. Just like the average consumer doesn't know/care about the difference between Intel and AMD, they're just buying whatever Dell or HP is selling them.

Thanks for the words of sanity on the battery life. Sometimes people loose track on reality, and just blindly follow the bigger number is better...
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Those are like GPU cores. Slices (defined in that post as physical instances) would be like multiple GPUs in a GPU. That sounds like a can of worms to me.
I was watching Lunar Lake presentation, and came scross this slide about "Render Slice".
Screenshot_20240609_191436_YouTube.jpg
I think Qualcomm is moving to a more desktop-class GPU with their Adreno 800 series architecture. Their current 700 series (and predecessors) are mobile-centric, although excelling in graphics- lack compute performance.
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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X Elite G2 will be very good
• 2nd gen Oryon CPU
• Adreno 800 series GPU architecture
• 3nm node
• 2nd generation (~100 TOPS) NPU
• LPDDR6 (possibly?)
 
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For those that understand Russian, the Elite performs like a Ryzen 7745HX (~930 multi core), gets hot, loses 15% performance due to translation, and does not support AVX2 software.



Edit: 7745HX is a better comparator than 5800x which the speaker drew the connection to: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7745hx

Performance is actually quite good for a first gen product, if that 26 hour battery life is true.
 
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SpudLobby

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May 18, 2022
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X Elite G2 will be very good
• 2nd gen Oryon CPU
• Adreno 800 series GPU architecture
• 3nm node
• 2nd generation (~100 TOPS) NPU
• LPDDR6 (possibly?)
LPDDR6 is actually the biggest single Q. There’s really no other question of that caliber. We expect a big IPC upgrade and/or mild clock boost — I would say 25% total performance upgrade is the low ball, 40% the most I can see, Adreno being better is a given, NPU upgrade yeah though I don’t know about 100 TOPs? We’ll see. N3E/N3P also a given I think.

But LPDDR6? Big Q. Does it arrive on time, and do they want to rely exclusively on that? If not, then one issue is then they’d have to ship a memory controller compatible with LPDDR5 and LPDDR6. With LPDDR4 and LPDDR5 this was a PITA apparently.

If they do LPDDR5-only, then it kind of hurts for future proofing and it’d hurt more than doing that in phones because a PC can really benefit from LPDDR6 assuming they’d also widen the bus which I suspect they would to 192B.



Also, I expect to see mobile E Cores from phones thrown in as long as scheduling can make good use of them. Wouldn’t work the same way as macOS with APIs but they could just migrate from E to P for increased user interaction and stuff with kernel scheduling. It’s too tempting not to if only for area gains and mild battery gains. We could probably see either 8 + 4 or a 12+4 setup for the big one, and I expect to then see a smaller die like Purwa doing 4 + 4 or 4+6 — could also use it in Android tablets or handhelds probably. (Or they do 8+4, who knows)



But if they don’t throw the mobile e cores on for whatever reason, it’s not a big deal given how well they can already do with P cores on energy and clearly area for the whole SoC anyways.
 

SpudLobby

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May 18, 2022
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Doing it with LP5 and LP6 is even harder.
Wouldn’t take Kepler’s word for it but intuitively it makes complete sense because the architecture divergence is massive. So they’ll have to have two controllers if they want LPDDR5 and LPDDR6 support.
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Rough projections suggest Microsoft expects to take roughly 5% of the market with the Arm-based laptops by the end of the year, selling about 1 million to 2 million units.
And all of that is going to be Qualcomm Snapdragon X devices, since no other ARM vendors will be releasing chips this year.

What do you guys reckon about this projection?

Doesn't seem bad to me, especially considering that Snapdragon X chips are only launching in the middle of the year, so it's really 6/7 months of sales.
 

FlameTail

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LPDDR6 is actually the biggest single Q. There’s really no other question of that caliber.
indeed.
NPU upgrade yeah though I don’t know about 100 TOPs? We’ll see. N3E/N3P also a given I think.
Microsoft will double the NPU TOPS requirment for next generation Copilot PCs accoriding to rumours...
But LPDDR6? Big Q. Does it arrive on time, and do they want to rely exclusively on that? If not, then one issue is then they’d have to ship a memory controller compatible with LPDDR5 and LPDDR6. With LPDDR4 and LPDDR5 this was a PITA apparently.
And it will be a bigger PITA with LPDDR5/6.

5 years ago, the Snapdragon 865 was announced as the first Snapdragon SoC to support LPDDR5. It had a hybrid LPDDR controller that supported both LPDDR4X and LPDDR5.

I expect this year's Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 to top out at LPDDR5X-9600. Perhaps it will also support Samsung's LPDDR5X-10667. But I don't think we can expect a LPDDR5X/LPDDR6 hybrid controller. There is really next to no benefit in supporting LPDDR6.

1. If they drop LPDDR5X support entirely and replace it with LPDDR6, OEMs are going to revolt. I expect LPDDR6 will be extremely rare and expensive until 2025H2.

2. They could support both LPDDR5X/LPDDR6 in a hybrid controller. But implementing this is going to be difficult, due to the substantially different architecture of LPDDR6. And because LPDDR6 supply will be limited, few devices really make use of it.

Hence why I believe 8G4 coming in 2024Q4 will not support LPDDR6. I expect 8G5 in 2025Q4 will completely drop LPDDR5X support and fully adopt LPDDR6.
If they do LPDDR5-only, then it kind of hurts for future proofing and it’d hurt more than doing that in phones because a PC can really benefit from LPDDR6 assuming they’d also widen the bus which I suspect they would to 192B.
Yeah, they need the bandwidth to feed the huge NPUs.
Also, I expect to see mobile E Cores from phones thrown in as long as scheduling can make good use of them.
Are you talking about Custom Oryon derived E-cores or ARM Cortex A5xx? The former is likely, while the latter is never going to happen.
Wouldn’t work the same way as macOS with APIs but they could just migrate from E to P for increased user interaction and stuff with kernel scheduling. It’s too tempting not to if only for area gains and mild battery gains.
People always talk about P/E core scheduling and stuff when it comes to Intel, and AMD to some extent (becuase of their Zen C cores). But Qualcomm was the first to bring a hybrid CPU architecture to Windows PCs with their Snapdragon 8cx. Doesn't Windows-on-ARM have a good in-built P/E core scheduler?
We could probably see either 8 + 4 or a 12+4 setup for the big one, and I expect to then see a smaller die like Purwa doing 4 + 4 or 4+6 — could also use it in Android tablets or handhelds probably. (Or they do 8+4, who knows)
I don't think it makes sense to go beyond 8P+4E for consumer/prosumer devices for now. Speaking of which, it's time to reveal this:

Snapdragon X2 Speculation/Concept V7
IMG-20240610-WA0001.jpg