Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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The Hardcard

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Oct 19, 2021
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You are only talking about the CPU core microarchitecture. Why will you not talk about the fabrics? Low-power interconnects? Power gating? These are all features of the Mobile heritage I was talking about.

View attachment 100746
View attachment 100747
Look how low the power floor is.
Everything you just posted are things Intel and AMD have access to for years. Idle power consumption is going to be yet another area where the gap is going to be far less than 4 years ago. In fact Intel has lower interconnect power demands than TSMC.

I haven’t come across immediate review, the examines, idle power, however the selling point of the low power island E cores is exactly that - the rest of the CPU would be power gated off. Lunar Lake takes it to another level with the claim you can be knee deep in a heavy workflow and the P cores will remain powered off, needed only the most thread latency sensitive situation.

I focus on microarchitecture because frankly it is the only story. It is the sole reason for Apple and Nuvia’s achievements. Every else behind this mobile heritage is akin to the few boxes that wouldn’t fit into the tractor trailer so someone else brought them up in a compact SUV.
 
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And how are slices different from something like WGPs in AMD RDNA, or SMs in Nvidia GPUs?
Those are like GPU cores. Slices (defined in that post as physical instances) would be like multiple GPUs in a GPU. That sounds like a can of worms to me.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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You are only talking about the CPU core microarchitecture. Why will you not talk about the fabrics? Low-power interconnects? Power gating? These are all features of the Mobile heritage I was talking about.

View attachment 100746
View attachment 100747
Look how low the power floor is.
Yep. This is what they always miss. What about power delivery, PMIC setups, gating, system caches or other designs in that range (LNL closer now but).

Also, I don’t actually buy that current AMD and Intel cores are as efficient as Arm’s latest Cortex stuff or Qualcomm’s or Apple’s. It’s very likely the fabric and overall system is a bigger factor, but does look at the M4 and M3 CPU-only results from Apple’s software modeling. I mean, do we think Intel’s Lion Cove is capable of hitting a 3100-3200 GB6 at 3.5-4W (again actual platform extracted).

I am deeply skeptical of that lmao.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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Everything you just posted are things Intel and AMD have access to for years. Idle power consumption is going to be yet another area where the gap is going to be far less than 4 years ago. In fact Intel has lower interconnect power demands than TSMC.

I haven’t come across immediate review, the examines, idle power, however the selling point of the low power island E cores is exactly that - the rest of the CPU would be power gated off. Lunar Lake takes it to another level with the claim you can be knee deep in a heavy workflow and the P cores will remain powered off, needed only the most thread latency sensitive situation.

I focus on microarchitecture because frankly it is the only story. It is the sole reason for Apple and Nuvia’s achievements. Every else behind this mobile heritage is akin to the few boxes that wouldn’t fit into the tractor trailer so someone else brought them up in a compact SUV.
I’ve heard this a thousand times. I think it’s both, and LNL will be a great part — half the ST power of MTL at the same performance and a lot of that is cutting package/SoC/PD cruft because the P core doesn’t get that much gain.

But keep in mind Lunar Lake is 4 years after M1 and even that above probably won’t match it’s ST perf/W. And frankly the ringbus issue also just speaks to the problem: Intel can’t just scale the way QC or Apple can or most likely Arm too. It’s a weird thing they have going on and the LP E cores are a crutch against that, be it the ringbus mess or P core power.

At least Intel cares, though.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Those are like GPU cores. Slices (defined in that post as physical instances) would be like multiple GPUs in a GPU. That sounds like a can of worms to me.
Hmm. Then there's also the other "new technology" that greatly boosts GPU utilisation:
GPdZkSwagAAizEW.png
Dynamic Wave Pairing
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Second wave of Snapdragon X devices incoming?


• Qualcomm has hinted at a second wave of Arm-powered PC launches in the coming months.
• While we’ve already seen several releases so far, the next wave will target the business and enterprise market.
• The wave could see the launch of non-laptop form factors like mini-PCs and all-in-one desktop computers.
Android Authority makes some good guesses as to what kind of devices will launch in the "second wave". In fact, Dell has pre-announced some Lattitude laptops with Snapdragon X (Lattitude is Dell's business line). Those laptops will not launch on June 18th, but rather some time 'later this year'.

But we know something Android Authority doesn't.

Purwa

Qualcomm is cooking an 8 CPU core part, based on a different die called Purwa, whereas X Elite/X Plus is based on Hamoa. Purwa will bring Snapdragon X to more affordable laptops, and those will quite likely be part of the "second wave".

Microsoft representatives have hinted in interviews that they want to bring the Copilot+ PC experience to more price points, and Purwa is Qualcomm's card for that.
 
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Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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You are underestimating the value of the mobile heritage that Apple, Qualcomm and Mediatek have. They have technologies that allow the SoC to operate at sub-1W. These technologies are essential for smartphones, where battery life, and thereby the power efficiency of the chip, is crucial. It is these technologies that they are bringing to the their PC chips, that will enable extraordinary battery life.

Sure, Intel and AMD can also develop these technologies, but they do not have the mobile heritage that Apple/Qualcomm/Mediatek have. They do not have the experience and knowledge gained from developing smartphone SoCs for more than a decade. This is where the real value of the mobile heritage lies...

Lunar Lake is a step in this direction and a huge advancement, but I can say with certainty it's not enough to catch up to Apple/Qualcomm, and make up for Intel's lack of mobile heritage. It will take them several more generations to close the gap.


Battery life for laptops only matters to a point, and that point is "when you go to sleep" - and even there it is only relevant for extreme cases where people really are on their laptop every waking hour. So I'd argue that while the M1 battery life was impressive, especially when it was put up against Apple's Intel laptops (which Apple already cherry picked from Intel's most efficient SKUs) the battery life it provided it was overkill for most.

Sure there may be a handful of people who were demanding enough in their use and using it long enough in a day that they'd run down the battery and need to charge, but that's a niche market. I think its overblown as something that will create a big wave of people towards ARM PCs (even if you accept as fact that x86 can never be as efficient as ARM, which I don't)

The "mobile heritage" argument only worked so long as Intel/AMD designed a single core that had to scale from laptops to servers (modulo different amounts of L3 etc) Once you design a second core, all that's out the window, because they can target laptops specifically with the small core. And if Intel's claims are proven correct when people get their hands on their new "small" core, I think that will easily fall into Apple's "overkill" territory for battery life - especially if you consider Apple didn't exactly put the largest "legal" battery in the M1 Air. If they had the battery life would have been TWICE as long. Can you imagine the hand wringing from some if Apple sold the Macbook Air as a slightly larger/heavier model but with forty something hours of battery life? :tearsofjoy: They didn't because they knew that was ridiculous, there's no target market for that aside from severe insomniacs.

So it doesn't matter if LL catches up with Apple/Qualcomm (and of course Apple is irrelevant as far as crazy wet dreams of ARM PCs being 50% of the Windows market) because it doesn't have to. It just needs to get from current x86 territory of "not enough battery life" to cross the Apple M1 line of "overkill". There's a lot of inertia to staying with x86, especially in the business world. Why would enterprise buyer choose ARM, given that the prices are not going to be any lower than x86? There's no upside for them choosing ARM, making this one of those "you'll never get fired for buying IBM" type of situations. Consumers may buy ARM, but they won't CHOOSE ARM. They'll just buy a PC at Walmart or off Amazon and not really realize what they're getting. Just like the average consumer doesn't know/care about the difference between Intel and AMD, they're just buying whatever Dell or HP is selling them.
 

Ghostsonplanets

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Mar 1, 2024
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ASUS device is using an yet to be announced 8 core Snap X processor
 
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Can you imagine the hand wringing from some if Apple sold the Macbook Air as a slightly larger/heavier model but with forty something hours of battery life? :tearsofjoy: They didn't because they knew that was ridiculous, there's no target market for that aside from severe insomniacs.
Nothing is ridiculous for Apple users. Haven't you seen people carrying iMacs to work?

1717849890373.png

Apple doesn't release a 40 hour laptop because that would eat into their profits (why release one device when you can release a cheaper to make device with half battery life and sell twice the units for same BOM?). They are all about the bottomline, to the point of skimping on RAM and storage. The 40 hour laptop makes sense for people going on long drives or camping trips. These people are currently carrying large battery banks with them and in some cases, even solar powered banks.
 

poke01

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2022
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Haven't you seen people carrying iMacs to work?
I have seen MKBHD do that with his iMac Pro. Pretty insane but it was work machine.
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He couldn’t work on Intel MacBooks cause battery life sucked, so he carried around a iMac Pro.

Now it’s been replaced by the M1 Max 16” MacBook Pro. So no more looking like an idiot, lol.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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I have been following the rumour mill, and it seems Snapdragon 8G4 might rival the GPU performance of Apple M4.*

*as measured in 3DMark Wildlife Extreme
 

Nothingness

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Jul 3, 2013
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I quickly at various OEM sites and couldn't find any laptop with both X1E80/X1E84 and 32 GB RAM. Did I miss something?
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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I quickly at various OEM sites and couldn't find any laptop with both X1E80/X1E84 and 32 GB RAM. Did I miss something?
Ze Galaxy Book4 Edge 16" has 84. The Edge 14" has 80 I think.

With regard to Surface Laptop, it seems 32 GB comes with X1E80100, while everything else comes with X1E78100.
 

Nothingness

Platinum Member
Jul 3, 2013
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Ze Galaxy Book4 Edge 16" has 84. The Edge 14" has 80 I think.
Yes, but only 16 GB :(

With regard to Surface Laptop, it seems 32 GB comes with X1E80100, while everything else comes with X1E78100.
Thanks! The fact I didn't even think about looking at MS site tells a lot about what I think about them.
They only say Elite 12 Core for the 32GB. That could be X1E78. Do you have some other source that would be more explicit?
 

MarkizSchnitzel

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Nov 10, 2013
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@Doug S
Mobile heritage also brings with it standby. Even newer x86 laptops suck hard at that. My bosses work laptop, a Dell Latitude keeps bothering us ALL the time while he is away.
So does my own, addmitedly old Zen 1 laptop. It just turns on randomly and does who knows what.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Apple's been using on-package memory since the M1. Intel is using on-package memory for Lunar Lake. Nvidia ARM SoC is rumoured to feature on-package memory.

Does it make sense for Qualcomm to also pursue on package memory in the future?