Quadrennial Defense Review to Propose Killing Two Carriers, Cut JSF, Cancel EFV

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Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
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Looks like a well informed post, but I have a comment on the mentality shown in one statement.



How do all the rest of the nations of the world feel, when they don't have six?

Isn't it interesting how easy it is to sort of make your self 'ruler of the world' who has to 'cover it'?

Why do we need to 'cover the world' all the time?

Why is it 'justiafible defense' for us to have overwhelming dominace but unacceptable for someone else to?

I have a comment about your mentality. You really come across as a huge defeatist with this post, eager to see the US decline in world power. If the US withdraws from the world stage, someone will fill the void. The overall level of military power might be reduced, but the US's relative position will be diminished.

As I said earlier, even peacenik American liberals have greatly benefited in the last 60 years from the US's military power and foreign policy. It has underpinned the world order and the economic stability much of the world enjoys.

Who will take power and responsibility in shaping world events if the US declines? China? Russia? Iran? Brazil? India? We have already established that you personally trust all of those nations over the US, but the question remains for others.... The track records of those countries does not lead me to believe they will be any more benevolent than the US has been.

And personally, I have these things called pride, self-preservation, and drive to excel. I would rather see the nation I live in be dominant, than some foreign power. Radical leftists may call that fascism, but what do they know. The grass is always greener somewhere else, and they are always ready to bow to someone else.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
8,595
126
Um, no.

Don't compare some Afgan hillbilly hajii to a 2nd rate military (Iran, Pakistan). Or a 1st rate one (India, China, Israel).

We definitely should support the infantryman with everything we have. And we do. Just look at the total % of the budget that goes to the Army/Marines.

But that's not really Gates' doing. No one in the defense industry can really make sense out of Gates. Whatever agenda he has, it's not obvious, and not just about best bang-for-buck.

Next, drones are not air-air weapons. They make great recon and even a decent bomb truck, but that's about it for now. What makes you think we can develop a capable air-air software package when we can't even get a decent spell/grammar check code? Do you really think the ASE types are going to have better code than Microsoft? A drone's coding is only as good as anticipated scenarios. So even the best drones have a man-in-the-loop, for when the programming can’t handle the sitrep. To defeat, cut the RF link and then hit it with a situation it's not programmed for. Drones = aluminum showers without wetware. And RF links are so terribly easy to jam. Especially at the source. To quote: "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor. ~Werner von Braun


In short, we are the best. Any reasonable person/head of government realizes this. A logical person will not punch you if they know you will hit back twice as hard.

Didn't stop Bin Laden, now did it?

Oh, and there's an idiot in SW Asia right now that think's it's his Mission From God to bring about the Apocalypse. Dropping an retaliatory ICBM on his head in Tehran would be Right. Down. His. Alley.

Deterence doesn't work when the other guy WANTS to be a martyr...

eh, article i read last month indicated that the changes in culture at the pentagon come from gates. that yes, he's inscrutable at times, but there's a general thrust in that he wants the pentagon to be more responsive to soldiers in the field instead of spending time fighting hypothetical wars against hypothetical opponents and then devoting real resources to that. which is exactly what the pentagon had been doing.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I have a comment about your mentality. You really come across as a huge defeatist with this post, eager to see the US decline in world power. If the US withdraws from the world stage, someone will fill the void. The overall level of military power might be reduced, but the US's relative position will be diminished.

I'm glad you posted this, since it further illustrates the mentality I spoke of. The difference is that I have an idea of a global peace that can work, and what can't and will see continual opression and war and injustice, while you are the person who doesn't and only understands the need for you to have things better than the rest of the world, an unwitting elitist who rationalizes things that make no sense.

You for example 'need' the US to effectively rule the world - anything less is 'defeatist'. No matter hiw much harming others and their having second class and oppressed status is needed for that - you don't really care, the thing that matters is your own situation of dominant power that the other 94% cannot have. You are so benevolent, if they let you have that, you won't mind their having some freedoms, but you would prefer to remain ignorant of the suffering cause by the need to exploit them. You have the mentality of the citizen of empires and colonizers throughout history.

Note the distorted language you use - not being the 'ruler of the world', the only nation whose ships have to be all around the world's oceans dominating the planet, means 'withdrawing from the world stage

Here's the key thing: you don't say a word, you don't have a notion, of any world system that is 'fair' and where nations 'get along' (even while you live in a nation where 50 states 'get along'); you equate the US not 'ruling the world' with hordes of barbarians showing up and sending the world into some sort of world chaos of violence. Again this is the colonialist's mentality - if you don't rule the world, it'll not do ok.

You thiink it's ok to insist the rest of the world make whatever sacrifices are needed for you to have the dominance you need to feel safe. ANd yes, they should thank you for this.

After all, you the master of the world, are keepikng the world safe. It should remind you a bit of the slaveowner's mentality, where they really throught they were benovently helping these inferiors.

I understand, you like to have a few peer nations - the Canad'a and England's - to keep they myth that you aren't really the master of the world, as long as they pose no conceivable threat.

It's a little like how the nobles each have peers and try not fo feel too much how they oppress the peasants.

This was the mentality that got us into Vietnam - those backwards people can't possibly run their own country, it's either us or China or the USSR to run them, so it better be us.

Your whole position is based not on any equality and 'equal rights' but on your side being the only one with the six carriers dominating the seas, and you getting to pat yourself on the back hoow benevolent you are.

Like the slaveowners and colonialists, you can say 'well I don't hear them complianing a lot, they must agree what a good system it is.'

As I said earlier, even peacenik American liberals have greatly benefited in the last 60 years from the US's military power and foreign policy. It has underpinned the world order and the economic stability much of the world enjoys.

Your first sentence - what a shock, the people of the colonial power got benefit from being so dominant.
Well, that certainly justifies any injustices doesn't it?

The second sentence is a great example of the self-righteous deluision of the colonialist I'm discussing. The Brits were infamous for saying the same thing when 'the sun never set' on their empire.

If Hitler or Stalin or Mao had ruled the world, the same could be said - they were responsible for 'providing the stability' that existed, er sorry, that 'the world enjoys'.

Just as slaves could thank their providers for the lodging and food they 'enjoyed'.

Who will take power and responsibility in shaping world events if the US declines? China? Russia? Iran? Brazil? India? We have already established that you personally trust all of those nations over the US

his is where you again expose the weakness of y ou position by stooping to lies as its basis

, but the question remains for others.... The track records of those countries does not lead me to believe they will be any more benevolent than the US has been.

Yes, this is the fallacy you offfer - that the only choice is WHICH nation should be the one dominant nation inthe world, and shockingly, you conclude yours is the best choice.

Funny, the others conclude theirs is. That's your problem. The answer is, none of them should be 'the one nation who is the only one out ruling the world'.

Any more than one of the 50 states should be the only one more dominantly powerful over the others.

What's needed is a global political structure more stable for co-existence than having one nation who is 'benevolent' to rule the world - and oh sorry about all our excesses.

I know the mythology you follow on this - the moment we're not there to run the world, another Hitler will arm his nation and try to rule the world and oh no we can't deal with it.

So you use that to justify a limitless appetitie for our benevolent world rule. And ignorance is very handy for dealing with any ugly side to that to keep on sleeping nicely at night.

Just repeat the mantra about how the world should be so grateful to us for providing such wonderful security, and no problem. Just like colonizers and slaveowners.

We can hardly help but be 'the bad guys' under your approach, like every other group that rationalized dominating others that they were such good benevolent rulers.

A system based on a priviliged class exploiting others for their prosperity is IMO inherently immoral and unstable. It works great for a while - we've had slavery a lot longer than we haven't here, and we had institutionalized racism until 1965. easy to forget the 400 years before that - but look back at any such system and put yourself in the other guy's shoes and you know better, there needs to be a better system than 'benevolent domknance'.

As India prepares to become the world's most populous nation, and a leading world economy, should they really still be an English colony being exploited for the benefit of the english under the arrogant views about how it's 'best for them' to have the civilised Brits in charge? From the Indians' point of view? For all the problems blacks have in the aggregate in our society today, is the answer a return to some sort of inferior position? Would our President agree?

I'm not saying to make a global United States government in which every nation is a 'state' under a bigger 'federal' world government. That's a larger topic.

But we can create some better and more stable global political system that protects the sovereignity and rights of each nation and region better than our war-based system now.

Rght now it's sort of 'you have all the rights you want - as long as you don't lose a war'. Ask Vietnam in the mid 50's when the west set up their colonial system (or the centuries before as cololonies) how many rights they had. Ask Colombia how many rights they had when they US took Panama away from them to build the canal. Ask the kingdom of Hawaii how many rights they had when the US ships showed up. Ask the buffer counmtries around the USSR how many rights they had when the USSR took them after WWII. Ask Mexico how many rights they had when we took half their country in the mid 1800's, ask Iran how many rights they had when we removed their democracy in 1953 to install a tyrant.

Tonight I picked up a book, "Overthrown: America's century of regime change from Hawaii to Iraq". I opened to a random page, and here's what it mentioned:

Following the US invasion thast Americans were celebrating, the leading politician in Puerto Rico wrote:

"The North American government has found in Puerto Rico a degree of autonomy larger than that of Canada. It should hgave respected and enlarged it, but only wanted to and did destroy it...Because of that and other things about which we shall remain silent, we shall not celebrate our 25th of July. Because we thought that an eras of liberty was dawning and instead we are witnessing a spectacle of terrible assimiliation... because none of the promises were kept, and because our present condition is that of serfs attached to conquered territory."

It goes on:

"The first decades of American colonial rule in POuerto Rico were an unhappy time. They began with an act of Congress, the Foraker Act, that established the rules by which the island would be governed. It vested absolute power in a governor appointed by the president of the United States. There would be an elected, thirty-five member House of Delegates, but its decisions were subject to veto by either the governor or Congress. The only Puerto Rican who testified at as congressional earing on the act was Julio Henna, a veteran civil rights campaigner.

"No liberty, no rights, nio protection" Henna said in an eloquent summary of its provisions...

During tge early years of the twentieth century, four American corporations gobbled upmst of Puerto Rico;s best land. On it they planted sugar, a crop suited to large scale farming. The big losers were families who grew coffee, which is known as the 'poor man's crop' because it can be cultivated on small plots. By 1930, sugar accounted for 60 percent of the country's exports, while coffee, once the island's principal crop, had fallen to just 1 percent.

With little access to land, ordinary Puerto Ricans became steadily poorer. One study found that while 17 percent of them were unemployed at the time of the American invasion, 30 percent were unemployed a quarter century later... Malaria, intestinal diseases, and malnutrition were daily facts of life."

The book tells a story of the sort of 'stability' you say they should be grateful for. Meanwhile, Americans had cheap suga, didn't we?

And personally, I have these things called pride, self-preservation, and drive to excel. I would rather see the nation I live in be dominant, than some foreign power. Radical leftists may call that fascism, but what do they know. The grass is always greener somewhere else, and they are always ready to bow to someone else.

The problem is your willingness to shortchange others, as is needed in a system based on inequality, even while you refuse to face the facts and spout how nice we are.

Your argument is again exposed as junk the way you throw around false phrases like 'Radical leftists' that only sow how yoiu nned to lie to jstify your positioon.

Fascism is a problem, but you are just making a straw man argument to say that the only issue with the current system is exaggerated clsims of fascism.

Every tyrant can rationalize the tyrrany and you are doing nothing better.

You sound like Castro justifying his repression by talking about the bad things from the previous dictatorships he improved.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
The best thing to do is develop an advanced hypersonic UAV of Aurora variety, and pull out from every single base outside of the US borders. Compared to the proposed scrapping of the US health care system this should be child's play.

Let Europe pay for it's own defense and see the hilarity ensue.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
The best thing to do is develop an advanced hypersonic UAV of Aurora variety, and pull out from every single base outside of the US borders. Compared to the proposed scrapping of the US health care system this should be child's play.

Let Europe pay for it's own defense and see the hilarity ensue.

Uhmm, US bases in Europe are not to defend the countries they are in any longer. In fact Europeans in general don't want them. (with some weaker countries bordering Russia being the exception) Those bases exist in the post Cold War world to help us project power, in a lot of ways we need them more than the host countries do.

Who do you think is going to attack the EU anyway, Russia? Riiiiiight.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I have a comment about your mentality. You really come across as a huge defeatist with this post, eager to see the US decline in world power. If the US withdraws from the world stage, someone will fill the void. The overall level of military power might be reduced, but the US's relative position will be diminished.

I'm glad you posted this, since it further illustrates the mentality I spoke of. The difference is that I have an idea of a global peace that can work, and what can't and will see continual opression and war and injustice, while you are the person who doesn't and only understands the need for you to have things better than the rest of the world, an unwitting elitist who rationalizes things that make no sense.

You for example 'need' the US to effectively rule the world - anything less is 'defeatist'. No matter hiw much harming others and their having second class and oppressed status is needed for that - you don't really care, the thing that matters is your own situation of dominant power that the other 94% cannot have. You are so benevolent, if they let you have that, you won't mind their having some freedoms, but you would prefer to remain ignorant of the suffering cause by the need to exploit them. You have the mentality of the citizen of empires and colonizers throughout history.

Note the distorted language you use - not being the 'ruler of the world', the only nation whose ships have to be all around the world's oceans dominating the planet, means 'withdrawing from the world stage

Here's the key thing: you don't say a word, you don't have a notion, of any world system that is 'fair' and where nations 'get along' (even while you live in a nation where 50 states 'get along'); you equate the US not 'ruling the world' with hordes of barbarians showing up and sending the world into some sort of world chaos of violence. Again this is the colonialist's mentality - if you don't rule the world, it'll not do ok.

You thiink it's ok to insist the rest of the world make whatever sacrifices are needed for you to have the dominance you need to feel safe. ANd yes, they should thank you for this.

After all, you the master of the world, are keepikng the world safe. It should remind you a bit of the slaveowner's mentality, where they really throught they were benovently helping these inferiors.

I understand, you like to have a few peer nations - the Canad'a and England's - to keep they myth that you aren't really the master of the world, as long as they pose no conceivable threat.

It's a little like how the nobles each have peers and try not fo feel too much how they oppress the peasants.

This was the mentality that got us into Vietnam - those backwards people can't possibly run their own country, it's either us or China or the USSR to run them, so it better be us.

Your whole position is based not on any equality and 'equal rights' but on your side being the only one with the six carriers dominating the seas, and you getting to pat yourself on the back hoow benevolent you are.

Like the slaveowners and colonialists, you can say 'well I don't hear them complianing a lot, they must agree what a good system it is.'

As I said earlier, even peacenik American liberals have greatly benefited in the last 60 years from the US's military power and foreign policy. It has underpinned the world order and the economic stability much of the world enjoys.

Your first sentence - what a shock, the people of the colonial power got benefit from being so dominant.
Well, that certainly justifies any injustices doesn't it?

The second sentence is a great example of the self-righteous deluision of the colonialist I'm discussing. The Brits were infamous for saying the same thing when 'the sun never set' on their empire.

If Hitler or Stalin or Mao had ruled the world, the same could be said - they were responsible for 'providing the stability' that existed, er sorry, that 'the world enjoys'.

Just as slaves culod thank their providers for the lodging and food they 'enjoyed'.
Who will take power and responsibility in shaping world events if the US declines? China? Russia? Iran? Brazil? India? We have already established that you personally trust all of those nations over the US, but the question remains for others.... The track records of those countries does not lead me to believe they will be any more benevolent than the US has been.

And personally, I have these things called pride, self-preservation, and drive to excel. I would rather see the nation I live in be dominant, than some foreign power. Radical leftists may call that fascism, but what do they know. The grass is always greener somewhere else, and they are always ready to bow to someone else.[/QUOTE]
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Uhmm, US bases in Europe are not to defend the countries they are in any longer. In fact Europeans in general don't want them. (with some weaker countries bordering Russia being the exception) Those bases exist in the post Cold War world to help us project power, in a lot of ways we need them more than the host countries do.

Who do you think is going to attack the EU anyway, Russia? Riiiiiight.

I understand the various roles bases have played in European history over the last many decades. You are indeed correct that Russia isn't going to attack Europe as things stand now. We are there for our own reasons, however I don't believe you are stepping back enough.

The key reason for Europe's stability isn't military, but the Euro. Trade trumps war. It's an economic MAD situation. Any one nation goes to war with another the entire financial structure tanks. Ruin for all.

That said, remember that Europe is composed of people who remember the USSR and those who do not. It's the latter which would like the US out more than the older generation.

What seems to be missing is the understanding that things do not remain the same. Recall that peace was a certainty after WWI. The Great War couldn't happen because clever people took steps to prevent such a catastrophe from happening again by building concrete bunkers between themselves and Germany. Well, that didn't really work out. Hubris won the day yet again.

Fast forward to post WWII where for decades the US prevented the USSR from taking over Europe. For a few generations we allowed them to spend money on their social infrastructure instead of defense. They weren't intellectually superior, they were the protected child who could afford to indulge themselves at our expense.

So now we have today. Many want us out, and I'm fine with that. As I said at the beginning of my prior post, I'd concentrate on having a US based force capable of significant action anywhere on short notice. Considering that for now the threat comes not from nations, but from smaller agencies, adaptability is key.

If that day comes about, then Europe has quite the problem. They cannot count on us coming to their rescue by virtue of proximity, and when (not if) world political tides turn against them, they will be in the awkward position of having to spend money to bail themselves out.

That time is what I was referring to. If you don't believe it can't happen, I'll remind you that Maginot thought the same thing. It always happens again.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
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The French built the Maginot line specifically because they were worried such a thing might happen again, they were also under no illusions that the wall made them invincible. In fact after WW1 France specifically pursued a policy to keep Germany as weak as possible for the exact reason that they were afraid of another war with that they might not win. If there was a thought that war could never happen again at all, it was extremely short lived.

The EU is more than capable of defending itself against all regional threats, Russia included. We gain more out of having our bases there than they do. You also seem to be implying an internal European military conflict which seems even more unlikely.

Simply put, Europe doesn't need our protection. If we pulled out tomorrow they would not scramble to protect themselves. (they probably would be sorry to see the influx of dollars go away though)
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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The French built the Maginot line specifically because they were worried such a thing might happen again, they were also under no illusions that the wall made them invincible. In fact after WW1 France specifically pursued a policy to keep Germany as weak as possible for the exact reason that they were afraid of another war with that they might not win. If there was a thought that war could never happen again at all, it was extremely short lived.

The EU is more than capable of defending itself against all regional threats, Russia included. We gain more out of having our bases there than they do. You also seem to be implying an internal European military conflict which seems even more unlikely.

Simply put, Europe doesn't need our protection. If we pulled out tomorrow they would not scramble to protect themselves. (they probably would be sorry to see the influx of dollars go away though)

I'm pretty much agreeing with you. I know about the Treaty of Versailles, which was more about revenge than prevention. Most of the rest of the world understood that inflicting perpetual torture on the Germans to the point of famine wasn't going to improve relations and one day that would backfire. It did, and spectacularly so.

What I'm talking about though is the military. No one expected that the Treaty would be proof against attack. If that was so, the extraordinary effort put into the line would be seen as redundant and never would have happened.

Defense isn't just tanks and bombs. It's psychological security. That's why most Americans supported the absurd idea of Iraq being a threat. We needed to defend ourselves because it just had to be.

Likewise, when the general consensus is that America isn't there anymore and when (again not if) adversity comes their way they are going to feel the need to change things so they can do more than hide behind the bunker. That involves many policy changes and there will be quite the time figuring out what to do.

As long as people are predatory by nature on their own species, there will be war. It's just a matter of time before a particular region feels the pressure.
 

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
0
0
I'm glad you posted this....

I really don't have the patience to read your wall of White guilt. But from skimming the paragraphs I think it's safe to say you can successfully blame every ill of the world on "US Imperialism," and your delusionally idealistic.

Your vision of a global arbitrator body has been tried; and failed. It is the United Nations, and it is subject to the petty and cruel motives of its member nations. There is no changing this; it is human nature.

If the UN was given more power over sovereign states, would all be perfect? No; it would just be an apparatus of whichever voting block was strongest at the moment. Maybe all the Muslim nations ganging up on Israel. Or maybe the US and it's allies ganging up on Cuba and Venezuela.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
It is for reasons like this that we did not have armor reinforced personell fighting vehicles. Remember the Hummers and the IEDs and the dead soldiers and Marines!

What happens next time we get attacked? Some idiots will attack us if we just let them. The only thing certain is we will be attacked somehow and they will keep attacking if we let them.

I am not sure how good the Joint Strike Force Fighter is at this point. We might be better off with some fast moving cargo vessels to move personnel and equipment.

The biggest complaints now that we have from our commanders is that we do not have enough men. Reducing troop strenght will just make it worse. You dont save money by reducing the military and increasing the size of government. If you can reduce the size of the military then reduce the size of the government by the same amount. Otherwise you are not fixing anything, you are just making things worse.

It might actually make sense to decrease the Air Force and the Military by reducing big-ticket items. It is a kind of a trade-off. By retiring older ships you are not losing anything. You can always reactivate a few of them in time of a big war. In reality it can be more expensive to keep old ships running than it is to build a new more modern vessel and commission it. There is a trend in Navy vessels lately making smaller but faster running troop carriers. Aircraft Carriers are good for defending fleets, but some would say they are not as effective as they once were. The larger they are, the bigger the target they are. (Remember the USS Cole) Iran Was constantly testing our large ships with smaller vessels. It only takes a rubber raft with a load of explosives to cause problems.

I think we would be better off dismantling some of the bases we have in Europe. We dont really need to protect Italy and France and Germany. So pull out "Most of the Troops" in Europe. Just keep a few skeleton bases where we can do staging and support troops in forward areas.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
I think some of you are vastly overestimating the EU's ability to defend itself against Russia. Aside from the UK, and to a lesser extent France, every European country has a military that functions as an internal security force. And we saw how Russia handled one of those not too long ago.

Our presence there acts as a deterrent, and helps with the balance of power in the region, which affects politics, economics and a bevy of other things. I'm not saying Russia would invade Europe if we weren't there, but the fact that they COULD upsets the balance of things in the world sphere.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
I think some of you are vastly overestimating the EU's ability to defend itself against Russia. Aside from the UK, and to a lesser extent France, every European country has a military that functions as an internal security force. And we saw how Russia handled one of those not too long ago.

Our presence there acts as a deterrent, and helps with the balance of power in the region, which affects politics, economics and a bevy of other things. I'm not saying Russia would invade Europe if we weren't there, but the fact that they COULD upsets the balance of things in the world sphere.

The French/German/English armies and the Georgian army have very little in common other than the fact that they can all be considered armies. Russia could not hope to fight a significant engagement with an EU force, they do not provide a credible threat.

Georgia's army was about 50,000 strong of which only maybe 10,000 were actually adequately trained and equipped. The numbers of actual equipped and trained troops that any number of EU nations can field is more than 10 times that number.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I really don't have the patience to read your wall of White guilt. But from skimming the paragraphs I think it's safe to say you can successfully blame every ill of the world on "US Imperialism," and your delusionally idealistic.

Your vision of a global arbitrator body has been tried; and failed. It is the United Nations, and it is subject to the petty and cruel motives of its member nations. There is no changing this; it is human nature.

If the UN was given more power over sovereign states, would all be perfect? No; it would just be an apparatus of whichever voting block was strongest at the moment. Maybe all the Muslim nations ganging up on Israel. Or maybe the US and it's allies ganging up on Cuba and Venezuela.

I only skimmed a couple sentences of your post, but saw from it that you are utterly lacking in reading comprehension of my post. You should just move along and I'll consider my post to be for others.' benefit.
 

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
0
0
I only skimmed a couple sentences of your post, but saw from it that you are utterly lacking in reading comprehension of my post. You should just move along and I'll consider my post to be for others.' benefit.

Could you please provide a quick summary of your posts? There are two which seem to be kind of redundant. Maybe then I will be able to respond correctly.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Could you please provide a quick summary of your posts? There are two which seem to be kind of redundant. Maybe then I will be able to respond correctly.

No, I can't in any way that would help you - it would simply be a few bullets that you would disagree with, and that's pointless.

I'd suggest in lieu of a summary that you try to read and respond to one section oof a post, that has some chance of addressing a topic, but I'm concened you would respond with an issue addressed elsewhere.

There are soe posts that are fine for a few sentences and others that are needing more explanation and information.

Imagine for example a discussion on Vietnam where someone wanting to discuss the history of Vietnam, Ho Chin Minh's decades of trying for independance and the US and Frennch histories, trying to discuss the shortcomings in the ideology of US leadership at the time - somethat the topic of Robert McNamara's book - with someone who simply had a 'the war was right, we were the good guys and the only mistake was not using more force' position, by 'summarizing' in a few sentences. Is any good going to come of that?

No, the summary would get a 'ya, you're full of crap' response.

I understand if you are not interested in pputting the time in to read the longer posts and have the appropriate discussion. But if you don't want to, don't respond assuming what I said.
 
Mar 11, 2003
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Long time lurker here. Just wanted to show my appreciation for people like you Craig and Garndawg who post interesting and well developed arguments.

As far as the aircraft carriers are concerned, I think cutting some makes perfect sense. Seems like the purpose of an aircraft carrier and some of those big navy ships are kind of outdated. Things we used to be able to do only when we were nearby, now we can do from our comfy living room chairs. I would assume we have pretty much everything covered in spy satellites and smart missiles. I just don't see a time where we would really need so many of them.

Cut military spending and pour more into technology research. That is what really improves quality of life.
 

bl4ckfl4g

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2007
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I have a comment about your mentality. You really come across as a huge defeatist with this post, eager to see the US decline in world power. If the US withdraws from the world stage, someone will fill the void. The overall level of military power might be reduced, but the US's relative position will be diminished.

As I said earlier, even peacenik American liberals have greatly benefited in the last 60 years from the US's military power and foreign policy. It has underpinned the world order and the economic stability much of the world enjoys.

Who will take power and responsibility in shaping world events if the US declines? China? Russia? Iran? Brazil? India? We have already established that you personally trust all of those nations over the US, but the question remains for others.... The track records of those countries does not lead me to believe they will be any more benevolent than the US has been.

And personally, I have these things called pride, self-preservation, and drive to excel. I would rather see the nation I live in be dominant, than some foreign power. Radical leftists may call that fascism, but what do they know. The grass is always greener somewhere else, and they are always ready to bow to someone else.

Are you retarded? The US isn't withdrawing from the world stage. It is simply updating its philosophy and adjusting equipment levels as necessary to meet the new goals. Something anyone that's been in the military would understand. It happens every few years and it has never resulted in us leaving the world stage or becomming weak.

You keyboard warriors trip me out.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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I tend to agree with the idea of closing our bases. Especially in Europe. Vic brought this up years ago that we help fund the EU's socialism by providing a defense force. Leave the continent and let them not have part of our defense budget.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Gotta love the usual wingnut lameness. If we cut the so-called "defense" budget in half, we'd still be easily the most potent military on the planet, accounting for roughly a quarter of all military spending.

It would reduce our ability to act unilaterally, ( or nearly so) probably not a bad thing given the cock-ups of the Bush Clan...
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Let the Snub nosed uppity ups in the all powerful EU Defend themselves.

What is this baloney about withdrawing from the "World Stage"?

This sounds like a meglomaniac only interested in world domination! If Europe wants the USA to defend the the EU then they can pay for all the equipment, the men, the supplies, and travel back and forth. Send a check for 10 trillion as a down payment.
 
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cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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I tend to agree with the idea of closing our bases. Especially in Europe. Vic brought this up years ago that we help fund the EU's socialism by providing a defense force. Leave the continent and let them not have part of our defense budget.

I believe we should re-examine our geopolitical defense policy. Most of Europe, Japan, Canada, South Korea, Australia and a range of other nations peer out at the world from behind America's skirts. It seems to me these allies bring a multitude of liabilities and few assets to the table and it's not clear to me how today's global patchwork of alliances serves American interests.

I agree we could and should cut military spending, but it has to be smartly. We don't need to slash budgets to hurt the military... a small but poorly placed cut can create a situation where our globally relevant capabilities are compromised. I believe smart cuts can be made while keeping in mind that in today's world, a strong national defense is not a luxury, it is an imperative.

On the issue of aircraft carriers I'm undecided. We may be able to lose a few, yet the fact that its Navy has dropped to the lowest level of ships since 1914 makes me wonder if we're going to meet 21st-century needs. 70% of the world's surface is covered by ocean, 80% of the world's population lives within 300 miles of the seacoast and 90% of the world's commerce travels over the ocean. All of the above are within easy reach of America's most effective tool for power projection... aircraft carriers.

I believe the best savings can come from restructuring the procurement process and cutting operational costs.
 

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
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Check out the relative strength of the world's carrier forces here-

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/summary.htm#us

Anybody who thinks we can't afford to decommission more than a few has rocks for brains.

Here's a visual representation:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.htm

It is slightly outdated. For instance, France and Japan now have amphibious ships similar to what South Korea is shown with here.

Some of you guys propose reducing American commitments to the defense of countries such as the EU, Australia, Japan, etc. If that were to happen, and those nations then felt vulnerable, would you be OK with them increasing military expenditure?

Would you be OK with some of those countries developing a nuclear deterrent force?

Is it "honorable" in some degree that the US taxpayer shoulders the burden of providing a defensive umbrella for so many nations? All of those people/nations may in fact spend less on defense because of it, and then have more money to spend as they wish. Who says Americans can spend it better?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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Here's a visual representation:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.htm

It is slightly outdated. For instance, France and Japan now have amphibious ships similar to what South Korea is shown with here.

Some of you guys propose reducing American commitments to the defense of countries such as the EU, Australia, Japan, etc. If that were to happen, and those nations then felt vulnerable, would you be OK with them increasing military expenditure?

Would you be OK with some of those countries developing a nuclear deterrent force?

Is it "honorable" in some degree that the US taxpayer shoulders the burden of providing a defensive umbrella for so many nations? All of those people/nations may in fact spend less on defense because of it, and then have more money to spend as they wish. Who says Americans can spend it better?

We should be workingtoward a nuclear weapon-free world. The political structure I mentioned above is important for that.

The more nations that have nukes the more dangerous, but what right does a nation have to say it can have them and others can't, would you accept that?