Public School: Why experiment on your kids.

[Imported]

Bravo, ViRGe. Very good thought you have.

 

[Zucchini]

This is a stupid debate. You can't compare private schools to public schools. Obviously the people that put their children in private schools are very concerned with their childs education. They make sure their children work really hard, and their children are preasured to succeed. Its a selective system too, get bad grades, and your out.. so basically private schools grow the cream of the crop.. Generally private school students also come from better backgrounds. They have all the advantages..extra curricular activities.. public schools have to deal with everyone. If you have been to public schools, you know that the kids that do very well are the ones that have parents that are very involved with their childrens education. It has nothing to do with your politics or bureaucracy..

And yes, area/money does affect public schools. Well off areas have great public schools where the standards are very high. I know many asian parents who will buy tiny 1/2 million dollar homes(california) just so their children will be in the nice school district. Of course there is backlash from some white residents about the asians raising the standards too high.

Oh by the way, for you oldsters that have been out of touch with the education system for a long time.. the standards have been raised. Students now can take calculus BC and advanced placement chemistry, physics, and computer science in high school. Don't let nostalgia distort your thinking.

 

[Imported]

I may not go to a private school but my parents are very concerned with my education. I wouldn't want to go a private school even if my parents wanted me to. I feel as if I get more opportunities through a public school than private and besides, $4000 for a year of school isn't worth it to me especially if I plan on going to a college.

 

[pidge]

<< Some taxpayers dont want their money going to support religious schools which teach stuff they do not support >>



Some taxpayers do on the other hand. Not every taxpayer is an athiest. Also, parents should be allowed to send their children to a private school if they feel their public school is taking away from their religious freedoms.

If private schools have the &quot;creme of the crop&quot;, then why is it then? Why do the creme of the crop prefer private schools? We shouldn't exclude private schools to where only the wealthy can afford it.

 

[Zucchini]

But the reason that the private schools contain the cream of the crop are because they are exclusive to the well off and concerned. Giving anyone the ability to join a private school does nothing to create good parents does it? Also, once you turn your taxes over to the public tax pool it is for the benifit of society as a whole. It is not there to be divied up by people to promote their political religious views.

It is the same reason a pacifist cannot withhold his taxes because he is opposed to a war.. you cannot pick and choose. Vouchers do nothing but take away from public schools which benifit society as a whole. Private schools are &quot;private&quot; and an alternative.. you should pay for them by yourselves.

Besides that, i think there are questions to the legality of vouchers, they go against the right to a free public education.

also, if you think about it, vouchers would make private schools public funded institutions. Basically a way back to segregation.. separate but equal... right...

 

[AMDJunkie]

OK, for high school I had three choices: Hillsborough IB program, Jesuit High School, or Chamberlain High School. The IB program tells me I'm accepted to it after two weeks of school. Either the post office or the secretary was slacking off there. Then there was Chamberlain, and though it's not in a bad area and has sufficient funding, it is known as a sub-par school in grades and safety, at best. Then there was Jesuit. My parents sacrificed quite a bit to send me there, but I'm glad they did. The staff is extremely competent and experienced; some of my teachers have been there for 20+ years. It has a great athletics program, and has quite a number of Hispanic and black students attending it too, not your stereotypical white boy, rich boy school. There are no &quot;incidents&quot; everyday, and unruly behavior is handled as the teacher sees fit. My friend, who had attended public school until the end of junior high, went there a year before me, and though he is not making A's and B's as he did when he was in public school, could tell that the curriculum is at a more advanced level than anything he was put through at public school, and he?s glad it is. Private school is not sheltered, is not just busy-work, and is not full of snobs.

 

[pidge]

&quot;But the reason that the private schools contain the cream of the crop are because they are exclusive to the well off and concerned. Giving anyone the ability to join a private school does nothing to create good parents does it? Also, once you turn your taxes over to the public tax pool it is for the benifit of society as a whole. It is not there to be divied up by people to promote their political religious views. &quot;

Private schools have a different culture, a culture where more is focused on education than clothes, popularity and other stuff that public schools are known for. For this reason, many parents choose to send their students to private schools. Not to place their students in a school that excludes the poor (which wouldn't be the case so much if vouchers were legalized).

&quot;It is the same reason a pacifist cannot withhold his taxes because he is opposed to a war.. you cannot pick and choose. Vouchers do nothing but take away from public schools which benifit society as a whole. Private schools are &quot;private&quot; and an alternative.. you should pay for them by yourselves.&quot;

You can not compare the two. The public schools are failing their purpose. You analysis would apply if I decided I didn't want to live in the US because I wasn't achieving economic success and so I decided to move to Canada but the U.S. decided to still tax me even though I am not living here anymore, while at the same time, I also had to pay taxes in Canada. It would leave me no choice but to stay in the U.S. because I can not afford to pay taxes twice.

&quot;Besides that, i think there are questions to the legality of vouchers, they go against the right to a free public education.&quot;

Yeah, I am not to sure on the legality of it all but if it is impossible, then that is a shame.

&quot;also, if you think about it, vouchers would make private schools public funded institutions. Basically a way back to segregation.. separate but equal... right...&quot;

How? Not to criticize your point but I just don't get it? Aren't we segregating now? The affluent which are predominantly white can afford to send their children to private schools. Minorities such as myself (Hispanic) can't afford to so I am being excluded right now.

Also, not every private school is religious.

 

[Imported]

And not every private school is better than a public school.

 

[jmcoreymv]

Pidge: This is a completely secularized country, it doesnt matter if some people want tax money going to religious school, tax money is state money, and church and state arent a part of each other in a secular country.

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

I understand that a private school child is most likely pushed harder academically, but there are FAR more drawbacks than you may realize. [*]There is very little social understanding to be had in a private school. It leaves a child sheltered, and allows for trouble when they are off to college or out in the real world. Perfect example, the mormon girl from Real World. [*]I, myself, go to a public school. I met a girl the other day that went to a highly esteemed private school. She is a real party girl, and gets drunk every single weekend. Monday is regularly &quot;Drunken weekend storytime.&quot; She tells me &quot;Thats what everyone does at Xavier!&quot; What does this tell you?

Also, i would like to point out that an education is fueled by what is put into it. The more the student puts INTO school, the more they get out. Someone frusterated with private school and with a sour taste to learning will not perform half as well as a public school student that applies themselves.


Not to say that public school students do not have a problem with the party aspect. It is completely true that public school students party, as all teens do, but you would be QUITE surprised on how the percentages fall. I would say about 15% of public school people participate in harmful, (this includes drinking and any other drug, violence, and general &quot;misbehaving.&quot activities on a weekly basis. She told me she would estimate the number at her school to be near 60%. Add this to the fact that every private school girl i have &quot;met&quot; are astonishingly more &quot;misbehaved&quot; than almost any public school girl (sans a few, of course ) and it doesnt look pretty.

Parenting makes the child. You teach your child not to participate in harmful activities, and they will withstand it to a certain degree. You do not teach this, or do it as a hipocrite (dont ever smoke weed, son. <sparks up a blunt>) and you will have a rough child to work with.


It is simple psycology. The more a child is supressed, the more they outlash when they are able to. The kid is like a spring, you take your hand off them, and they eject. Don't think those extra dollars you are spending truly help your child, TRP, as they truly are hurting them. Ignore me if you wish, but i speak the truth, brother.

 

[pidge]

Sephiroth_IX,
Many of my opinions are based on my personal experiences much like your examples are. I have not attended a private school however, I have read much about them from a social problems in education class I took in college. I had a strong desire to excell in high school cause I wanted to succeed. I felt I had reached an impass in my high school because of the teachers, culture and lectures of my high school. I am not trying to encourage ever student to attend private school nor am I saying private school is much better than public schools, however for people like me and many others who feel disappointed with the public schools should be allowed to have a choice. That is what I wanted during high school, a choice.

 

[Zucchini]

pidge
&quot;Private schools have a different culture, a culture where more is focused on education than clothes, popularity and other stuff that public schools are known for. For this reason, many parents choose to send their students to private schools. Not to place their students in a school that excludes the poor (which wouldn't be the case so much if vouchers were legalized).&quot;

Why do you think private schools have this &quot;different&quot; culture? Its because of its population. The children make the school in other words, and in these cases.. the children are from well off or very hardworking/caring parents. You cannot expect to send all children to private schools and expect the same results. There are many factors for the success of private schools. You can't garrantee success just by badging a school private and throw some children in.

&quot;You can not compare the two. The public schools are failing their purpose. You analysis would apply if I decided I didn't want to live in the US because I wasn't achieving economic success and so I decided to move to Canada but the U.S. decided to still tax me even though I am not living here anymore, while at the same time, I also had to pay taxes in Canada. It would leave me no choice but to stay in the U.S. because I can not afford to pay taxes twice. &quot;

I think your analogy is worse then mine It does not work on any level. If the public schools are failing, you reform the public schools. You don't take money from the general fund and let people spend it as they please.


I was very careful not to use the term racial segregation.. but thats what you automatically assumed i meant It could mean economic segregation/religious.. whatever you want. A likely scenario would be that all the best private schools in existence would use the extra 4000 per student as justification to raise their fee's. That would be the most logical thing to do, use the extra 4000 to create an even better school while still charging high tuition(even better private school, but not anymore accessable to the poor).

 

[pidge]

<< Why do you think private schools have this &quot;different&quot; culture? Its because of its population. The children make the school in other words, and in these cases.. the children are from well off or very hardworking/caring parents. You cannot expect to send all children to private schools and expect the same results. There are many factors for the success of private schools. You can't garrantee success just by badging a school private and throw some children in. >>



These schools have different cultures because the expectations are much higher. The public schools are unionized and therefore, the expectations are not there from the teachers. The Private schools are a business in which they must perform to continually receive new students that fund their school.




<< I think your analogy is worse then mine It does not work on any level. If the public schools are failing, you reform the public schools. You don't take money from the general fund and let people spend it as they please. >>



By your statements, your idea for reform is pumping more money to public schools (vouchers taking money away from public schools).



<< I was very careful not to use the term racial segregation.. but thats what you automatically assumed i meant It could mean economic segregation/religious.. whatever you want. A likely scenario would be that all the best private schools in existence would use the extra 4000 per student as justification to raise their fee's. That would be the most logical thing to do, use the extra 4000 to create an even better school while still charging high tuition(even better private school, but not anymore accessable to the poor). >>



I wasn't sure what you meant, that's why I asked. I didn't know what you meant by segregation so I took what most people see segregation as. Anyways, vouchers is not the perfect solution. However, it in my opinion, it would greatly provide much needed assistance to the poor and middle class who are forced to send their children to failing schools simply because the public school system has a monopoly on how our education taxes are spent. What sounds better? Allowing the poor to send their children to private schools where the affluent prefer to send their kids to help them succeed or to send their kids to public schools to help fund the over paid adminstrators and unionized teachers who are not performing their jobs and are putting the children at risk.

 

[jmcoreymv]

I just thought about something, if everyone is extremely educated, then no one will want to do crappy work for crappy pay, like working the fastfood deep frier or cleaning toilets at a stadium after the game in which everyone has eaten foot long chili dogs. This will cause capitalism to fall, ahhh damn, we need crappy schools!

 

[Imported]

These schools have different cultures because the expectations are much higher. The public schools are unionized and therefore, the expectations are not there from the teachers. The Private schools are a business in which they must perform to continually receive new students that fund their school.

Schools shouldn't need to be a business. Schools are suppose to educate, not try and win students over for their money. Vouchers take away from state funding for public schools which would make them more worse then they are now. Taking away money and putting them into private schools just profits the private school.

 

[pidge]

That is exactly what public school is, a monopolized business. There is nothinging in the constitution that says the government has to provide funding for public schools. I am not entirely clear on this but somewhere I read that the government does not have to pay schools if they do not follow certain guidelines. This came up where a public school didn't want to take in someone who was severely handicapped for some reason and it went against the goverment guidelines of equal educaton and the goverment said that if they did not accept the student, the public school would not receive any funding from the government which they had the perfect legal right to.

 

[pidge]

The rich will make sure public schools won't fail because they need people to be in the middle class status so that they can afford to buy their products. It is very hard to break out of the middle class status. I have noticed that the rich and poor have different habitus' which shapes their way of thinking. I think one of the best way to break out of the middle class is to emulate the upper class. That is what I have tried to do and that is probably I am more conservative in my thinking than my liberal parents. Anyways, this will remain a difference of opinion and I respect your decision. If you feel that strongly about public schools, then you probably had a better experience than I did.

 

[Zucchini]

I would go find proof of that before you bring it up.


I did not say pump more money into the schools, you did. However, taking money away from the schools obviously does no good.

As for the real intent of vouchers... its mostly for the religious who want a way around the chuch state separation.

 

[JellyBaby]

<< The rich will make sure public schools won't fail because they need people to be in the middle class status so that they can afford to buy their products. >>

This is either one of the dumbest comments I've ever read or the most astute.

 

[bigben]

I am a child of ghetto public school - Duke Freshman, Good Kid (according to my mother) and a nice guy. Anand, the owner of this here techno-gizmo site chalk full o' stuff that i don't grasp that he does quite well, is a product of the same school as me. Manveer, Kiran, Jim, and others who work for the site are all public school products. I think we turn out ok.

 

[Zucchini]

Bigben,

I think the voucher proponents know this, but they must twist the arguement to hide their true intentions. These are people that don't understand the reasoning for a separation between church and state, and the vouchers would be their loophole.

 

[pidge]

Jellybaby...I just meant that the whole notion that public schools will suffer tremendously from vouchers is nonsense. This nation needs a lower class and especially a middle class. The middle class are one of our countries greatests assests since they have money to spend which stimulates our economy however doesn't keep a lot of money in the bank like billionaires do which doesn't help our economy by much (money that is spent usually has a tax to it too which also helps the government).

 

[ViRGE]

Bigben, I'm a public school kid too, so are you so sure about that?

 

[bigben]

Zucchini......you aren't really talking to me are you?

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

Can i get some replies on my post? It's quite important to hear critisism on my thoughts