We have put more money into education over the past 30 years with no improvement. Is more money always the answer? That is the liberal point of view. The decline in education reflects the cultural decay and lack of discipline that comes with it which has infected our society. Parents have to get involved again and not expect the "system" to produce educated citizens. The system has no accountibility. They are filled with bureaucrats whose priority is to keep the status quo intact. This thing needs to be turned on its head but no one has the courage to do so.
TRP, you are as clueless as sh8t! you have to look at funding in terms of per student spending at individual schools. Not overall average spending for all kids. How about telling me something you haven't heard from Rush or the Trent Lott? There IS discipline in Public schools. It's the parents who always think their kids could do no wrong. There should be accountability! But It's on the parents and on the kids. It's not the teachers' fault if a kid decides not to learn. you could have Einstein be your son's teacher, but learning has to be done by the student. To paraphrase the Matrix: They can only show you the doors, but you have to walk through them. Parents also have to demand higher academic standard for their kids. How many parents actually demands that their kids to do 2 hours of homework each night and limit the TV time? Gettin rid of TVs in the house might probably be the best solution to this "Education crisis". There may be beuracrats at play here, but they are not teachers!
Pennstate:
That is the third time you have accused me of speaking with another man's voice. I find that highly offensive. The bureaucracy in public education is what is siphoning off tax dollars. The administrators are the highest paid in EVERY system and they do not teach!!! How does that make sense? The fish rots from the head down. The teacher's union? They are the impediment to real change and have always been. Parents involvement is key but often undermined by the monopolistic system.
That is the third time you have accused me of speaking with another man's voice. I find that highly offensive. The bureaucracy in public education is what is siphoning off tax dollars. The administrators are the highest paid in EVERY system and they do not teach!!! How does that make sense? The fish rots from the head down. The teacher's union? They are the impediment to real change and have always been. Parents involvement is key but often undermined by the monopolistic system.
The problem, as I see it, is that education has become a key selling point for politicians. More so today then ever as, shockingly, students in public schools are performing more terribly as time goes on. I really feel many politicians enjoy this and care little about individual students. After all, if all was peachy-keen in education today we?d have no need of federal involvement now would we?
As with all things, parents need choices. Private schools tend to be very expensive but there?s a new trend in cost-effective pseudo-public schooling that eliminates the money-sucking bureaucracy and administration while offering more teachers and better learning. I forget the name of this type of school but several cities have pilot programs that are working. Of course the teacher?s unions and democrats are fighting this trend tooth and nail for completely self-serving reasons though they?ll tell you they?re very concerned with the welfare of the child.
Yep, throwing money at the problem is not an answer. Gore wants to increase the federal education budget dramatically. Who gains from this? He does, his cronies, bureaucrats, administrators, and tenured teachers. Notice I didn?t include kids. That?s because, mysteriously, the money really never reaches them in meaningful ways. Yet Gore?s simple 20 second sound bite, ?I promise to strength education is America? is good enough for the masses. Uh-huh.
As with all things, parents need choices. Private schools tend to be very expensive but there?s a new trend in cost-effective pseudo-public schooling that eliminates the money-sucking bureaucracy and administration while offering more teachers and better learning. I forget the name of this type of school but several cities have pilot programs that are working. Of course the teacher?s unions and democrats are fighting this trend tooth and nail for completely self-serving reasons though they?ll tell you they?re very concerned with the welfare of the child.
Yep, throwing money at the problem is not an answer. Gore wants to increase the federal education budget dramatically. Who gains from this? He does, his cronies, bureaucrats, administrators, and tenured teachers. Notice I didn?t include kids. That?s because, mysteriously, the money really never reaches them in meaningful ways. Yet Gore?s simple 20 second sound bite, ?I promise to strength education is America? is good enough for the masses. Uh-huh.
I went to public school my entire life. In grade 1-6 I went to a not too poor school. The teachers were nice and school was fun. In grade 7-9 I went to a Jr. High school that had VERY LITTLE money. The BEST teacher I've ever met taught there. In grade 10-12, I decided to attend school in a rich suburb. It was a great school Lots of money for field trips, the people were really friendly too.
In private schools, I would say that you only interact with the same kind of people as yourself. Rich families, and kids with all kinds of benifits that many other kids do not have. Many times, these schools are heavily populated by people of the same race. By this, I mean that you may not be as exposed to people of other races.
In public schools, you interact with all sorts of people. You have kids from very rich families to kids from very poor single parent homes. You are also exposed almost every sigle race there is.
I think I am a better person now for having attended public school, then I may have been had I attended a private school.
In private schools, I would say that you only interact with the same kind of people as yourself. Rich families, and kids with all kinds of benifits that many other kids do not have. Many times, these schools are heavily populated by people of the same race. By this, I mean that you may not be as exposed to people of other races.
In public schools, you interact with all sorts of people. You have kids from very rich families to kids from very poor single parent homes. You are also exposed almost every sigle race there is.
I think I am a better person now for having attended public school, then I may have been had I attended a private school.
My son attended private school for the first two years of his "school life", then I switched him to public, for a variety of reasons. The private school he attended was very sheltered, had limited extra-curricular and cultural opportunities, no interaction at all with anyone but other white, middle-class children and white, middle-class teachers. It worked for those two years, but when I felt he (and I) had matured enough, I put him in our local public school.
We're allowed to choose which of the four local elementary schools we want our kids to go to (you apply, then first come, first served, you get in if there's room, if not you go to the next on your list). I went to school in the same system, and was reasonably familiar with the way the district worked and who was teaching where.
I have mixed feelings about how things are going in his school, but MY job as his parent is to fill any shortcomings the school district has. He's in the talented and gifted program (3rd grade, tests at the seventh grade level so far), but even that isn't enough to challenge him, so I make the effort to contact teachers in the appropriate grade level, get their input on some extra things I can do for him at home, and spend a lot of time seeking out resources to supplement his education.
In a more perfect world, I wouldn't have to basically have a part-time job being his second teacher, but as his parent, it's my responsibility to see that he is given all of the educational opportunities I can afford for him, time and money-wise. I volunteer at his school several days a week, in all areas, not just his class. I help out wherever they need me, and they need me a lot because there aren't a lot of parents who either have the luxury or the desire to take part in their children's school activities.
I live in comfortable suburbia though, and I can see that the Madison area school district is majorly f*cked. I would never, ever, ever put my son in Madison public schools. It's like most every other issue, it depends on where you live, how much money you have, and how much priority your community places on public schools. I would never want the federal government regulating public schools, but I can say that from the relative comfort of my own district.
Now I'm rambling and lost track of my original point, which basically was, public schools are what the community makes of them, but in the end, it's a parent's responsibility to see that their children are educated properly.
We're allowed to choose which of the four local elementary schools we want our kids to go to (you apply, then first come, first served, you get in if there's room, if not you go to the next on your list). I went to school in the same system, and was reasonably familiar with the way the district worked and who was teaching where.
I have mixed feelings about how things are going in his school, but MY job as his parent is to fill any shortcomings the school district has. He's in the talented and gifted program (3rd grade, tests at the seventh grade level so far), but even that isn't enough to challenge him, so I make the effort to contact teachers in the appropriate grade level, get their input on some extra things I can do for him at home, and spend a lot of time seeking out resources to supplement his education.
In a more perfect world, I wouldn't have to basically have a part-time job being his second teacher, but as his parent, it's my responsibility to see that he is given all of the educational opportunities I can afford for him, time and money-wise. I volunteer at his school several days a week, in all areas, not just his class. I help out wherever they need me, and they need me a lot because there aren't a lot of parents who either have the luxury or the desire to take part in their children's school activities.
I live in comfortable suburbia though, and I can see that the Madison area school district is majorly f*cked. I would never, ever, ever put my son in Madison public schools. It's like most every other issue, it depends on where you live, how much money you have, and how much priority your community places on public schools. I would never want the federal government regulating public schools, but I can say that from the relative comfort of my own district.
Now I'm rambling and lost track of my original point, which basically was, public schools are what the community makes of them, but in the end, it's a parent's responsibility to see that their children are educated properly.
Stefan,
<< In private schools, I would say that you only interact with the same kind of people as yourself. >>
Not always true and even if true, what's your point? You go to school to become educated not to socialize. Socialization still occurs, though, as it should. Who you see and who you don't have little bearing on how most people evolve. You do walk the streets and visit other public places, right? Well there?s your chance to see all sorts of people in action.
<< Rich families, and kids with all kinds of benifits that many other kids do not have. >>
As folks in this thread have already pointed out, average amercian families struggle financially to send their kids off to private schools. btw, I notice Al Gore sent his kids to private schools, so, yes the "elite" do as well but so what?
<< I think I am a better person now for having attended public school, then I may have been had I attended a private school. ??
But are you better educated?
Private schools aren't necessarily the answer but our public school system is locked into a political cycle of deterioration. I would think at the very least parents should be given a choice of schools both private and public and anything in between that has proven effective.
<< In private schools, I would say that you only interact with the same kind of people as yourself. >>
Not always true and even if true, what's your point? You go to school to become educated not to socialize. Socialization still occurs, though, as it should. Who you see and who you don't have little bearing on how most people evolve. You do walk the streets and visit other public places, right? Well there?s your chance to see all sorts of people in action.
<< Rich families, and kids with all kinds of benifits that many other kids do not have. >>
As folks in this thread have already pointed out, average amercian families struggle financially to send their kids off to private schools. btw, I notice Al Gore sent his kids to private schools, so, yes the "elite" do as well but so what?
<< I think I am a better person now for having attended public school, then I may have been had I attended a private school. ??
But are you better educated?
Private schools aren't necessarily the answer but our public school system is locked into a political cycle of deterioration. I would think at the very least parents should be given a choice of schools both private and public and anything in between that has proven effective.
I went to private school for grade school and I just started public HS. I hated every minute of private school now that I'm in public school I don't really mind going to school and I'm doing a lot better A's and B's instead of D's and F's. My private school was majorly F*cked up. The teachers didn't really do anything just made you do busy work. I am totally lost in math right now(algebra 1)I have to work a lot harder to get B's than all the other kids who went to public school the year before. You guys keep saying the private schools are better funded than public schools...we got all the hand me downs from the public schools. A lot of kids from my private school are going to public now because of how sh!tty our private one was.
But are you better educated?
Honestly, I don't think there is any way I could answer that. I've never been to a private school.
If I had to answer that, I would say I possibly would be better educated person. I may know more about English, Math and the Sciences, but I may not have learned some other skills that I may have picked up in public school.
What these skills are, I dont know for sure. Maybe its the way I see the world or my life. I may have learned that some things are more important than others in life.
No matter if you go to a private or public school, your only gonna get out of it what you put in.
Honestly, I don't think there is any way I could answer that. I've never been to a private school.
If I had to answer that, I would say I possibly would be better educated person. I may know more about English, Math and the Sciences, but I may not have learned some other skills that I may have picked up in public school.
What these skills are, I dont know for sure. Maybe its the way I see the world or my life. I may have learned that some things are more important than others in life.
No matter if you go to a private or public school, your only gonna get out of it what you put in.
I could write a book on this subject, but let me spare you and just address a couple of points.
First of all, this is my 22nd year teaching in the public school system, things have gotten so ridiculous in my district that I'm considering going into another career. It may seem a bit odd that I'm defending the public school system, but when it comes to public vs. private, a good public school wins, hands down.
Viper GTS is correct when he says that private school teachers are paid less than public school teachers. Private schools have tried to hire me, several of my friends teach at private schools, and one of my friends organized and runs a private school. He is not correct though in attributing altruistic reasons to their choosing the lower paying private school position, it is quite the contrary. Most teachers choose to teach at a private school rather than a public one because they don't have to teach "all" students at a private school. They don't have to be bothered with the "riff-raff" as thraashman calls them. They have fewer discipline problems to deal with, no Special Education students, and no students placed in their classes who are monitored by the criminal justice or mental health systems. Public school teachers teach all students and surprisingly, there are some very good public schools out there.
Just an observation, I have noticed over the years that I've heard several students who transfered from private schools to public ones say that they're glad they did. I rarely hear a student who has gone from a public school to a private one say they prefer the private one. I've noticed the same pattern here in this thread.
First of all, this is my 22nd year teaching in the public school system, things have gotten so ridiculous in my district that I'm considering going into another career. It may seem a bit odd that I'm defending the public school system, but when it comes to public vs. private, a good public school wins, hands down.
Viper GTS is correct when he says that private school teachers are paid less than public school teachers. Private schools have tried to hire me, several of my friends teach at private schools, and one of my friends organized and runs a private school. He is not correct though in attributing altruistic reasons to their choosing the lower paying private school position, it is quite the contrary. Most teachers choose to teach at a private school rather than a public one because they don't have to teach "all" students at a private school. They don't have to be bothered with the "riff-raff" as thraashman calls them. They have fewer discipline problems to deal with, no Special Education students, and no students placed in their classes who are monitored by the criminal justice or mental health systems. Public school teachers teach all students and surprisingly, there are some very good public schools out there.
Just an observation, I have noticed over the years that I've heard several students who transfered from private schools to public ones say that they're glad they did. I rarely hear a student who has gone from a public school to a private one say they prefer the private one. I've noticed the same pattern here in this thread.
Geez. Just go read the book I pointed out. There are far more evils to school than what is being talked about here. Far more important evils. Like.. The grading system, to name a minor one. The whole mentality that Public school, and most public school teachers have, is wrong, and is not a healthy learning environment.
Knowledge should be pulled into the head by the student, not pushed in by the teacher.
Don't get me wrong. The teacher TOTALLY matters, I've had some good teachers, and I've had some really, really bad teachers.
Trust me, go to your local library and rent that book, if you're at all interested in this subject. It's a good read.
Knowledge should be pulled into the head by the student, not pushed in by the teacher.
Don't get me wrong. The teacher TOTALLY matters, I've had some good teachers, and I've had some really, really bad teachers.
Trust me, go to your local library and rent that book, if you're at all interested in this subject. It's a good read.
JellyBabe, can you show me that on a national average, Public School Students are performing worse than private school students? Also Can you point me to the downward trend that you keep talking about. I suspect what you're saying are talking points drilled in sublinably by Conservatives that opposes Public Schools because of the exclusion of religion.
Imported
Lifer
- Sep 2, 2000
- 14,679
- 23
- 81
Even if each of my parents were making 6 figures or more, I'd rather go to a public school than a private school. I remember last year, our school basketball team had to play a private school in a tournament. They acted like spoiled brats and acted as if they were the best there was. Personally, I wouldn't want to be apart of anything like that. They had better uniforms and such, but we still knocked them out of the tourney. Should have seen there coach too; dressed in a suit and arguing with every call made by the ref.
I dont see why everyone keeps saying education has gone down hill, today more than ever before, more kids are taking AP classes and passing, getting higher SATs, higher GPAs, more community service, etc.
Jmcoreymv,
It's the conservative right's cover for pushing their own religion and their morals (or lack of) into schools. One way, and they've been surprisingly good at it, is to make public schools look bad, and make religious and private schools look perfect. I hope students of public schools and parents of kids in public schools would come out and defend the Public School and its teachers.
It's the conservative right's cover for pushing their own religion and their morals (or lack of) into schools. One way, and they've been surprisingly good at it, is to make public schools look bad, and make religious and private schools look perfect. I hope students of public schools and parents of kids in public schools would come out and defend the Public School and its teachers.
I went to private school all of my life. In High School, I felt my high school was full of bs. There was a voucher proposition which the teachers kept fighting against in our class rooms. We freakin spent so much of our class time discussing why it was a bad idea. How the public schools need more money. Well, needless to say, the proposition didn't pass. I was really disappointed with my high school for many reasons. The quality of education was below my expectations. The teachers were incompitent (not all but a few of the ones I had). During my junior year, I had enough. My parents couldn't afford to send me to a private school however, I was fortunate enough to find an alternative school in which was located right on a college campus. This high school would allow me to take college classes instead of high school classes. The college teachers and the lectures were much better than my previous high school experiences. The education I picked up from college prepared me better for the real world than my previous high school did.
I was getting good grades when I left my first high school (I was taking all AP classes) however I was really disappointed with my high school. I think school vouchers are a good thing since it give parents a choice. I don't see how it could possibly hurt high schools. Aren't public schools over crowded anyways?
I was getting good grades when I left my first high school (I was taking all AP classes) however I was really disappointed with my high school. I think school vouchers are a good thing since it give parents a choice. I don't see how it could possibly hurt high schools. Aren't public schools over crowded anyways?
illkid has one of the reasons, and the other reason it hurts public schools (at least in cali) is that vouchers are worth $4000 per student per year, however the pub schools get $6800 per student per year, therefore they lose $2800 dollars for every student that uses a voucher.
If a parent wishes to send their children to a religious based school, then that is there choice. Wouldn't that be a better choice than one where many students are using drugs, where the school culture says that the best looking and best sports players are to be idolized, where sex in increasing (which many times leads to abortions) etc.. So what if you don't believe in religion. It can't do more harm (if any) than life in a public school.
Second, the cost of a private school is less than a public school (or at least in my area it is). $4 out of every $5 dollars that my school district receives (again, where I live) goes to paying for administrators and teachers salary. If you take away a student from public school, who has to lose more are the teachers and faculty, not the students.
Second, the cost of a private school is less than a public school (or at least in my area it is). $4 out of every $5 dollars that my school district receives (again, where I live) goes to paying for administrators and teachers salary. If you take away a student from public school, who has to lose more are the teachers and faculty, not the students.
Pidge: Some taxpayers dont want their money going to support religious schools which teach stuff they do not support.
Imported
Lifer
- Sep 2, 2000
- 14,679
- 23
- 81
But I don't think the Government should be paying for a child to go to a religious school. Sure, it's the taxpayers money, but there is suppose to be a separation of church and state. Also, the public high school may have some problems as you described, but it's a very small percentage of kids who actually do things like that. It's not much of a suprise sex is increasing, but it's also not something that can be stopped by just sending your child to a private school.
ViRGE
Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
- Oct 9, 1999
- 31,516
- 167
- 106
Let's turn the tables a bit, shall we? Let's just suppose the teachers are fine, the parents are fine, the students start out wanting to learn, and their's plenty of cash. Now, there's only 1 problem, curriculum.
The point of school is to learn the knowledge of man. However, as man has progressed, man as a whole has discovered new things, and as such, has to teach is offspring the new things he has learned. However, a new problem has arrisen, man has not increased the time for school, which still starts at age 5, and releases at age 18. So, man must teach the basics of his new and current knowledge in the same amount of time he had to just teach his current knowledge(to the student's parents) before. So, the students are forced to learn more stuff faster than their parents.
Now, with man's new tools derived from his new knowledge, learning has become easier. However, man's mind is still limited, in that it's not terribly more complex, if not any better than it's predecessor's brains. So, the students will one day hit a wall where they're forced to learn too much, too fast.
Hence, I belive that the actual problem is not just parents, teachers, or cash, but time; man is making his offspring do too much at once. Sooner or later, 1 of 3 things will have to happen in order to cure this: Either school will be extended(as in a grade 14 or 15 may be manditory), or schools will have to make students pick a carrer field earlier(so the students can use the time gained from not having to learn irrelivant knowledge), or the schools will have to begin replacing things not absolutely nessisary(say cutting down on world history). Either way, man will soon, if not allready has, hit a wall of time.
PS This was written after eating a lot of sugar coated food, so the writer may be a tad hyper
The point of school is to learn the knowledge of man. However, as man has progressed, man as a whole has discovered new things, and as such, has to teach is offspring the new things he has learned. However, a new problem has arrisen, man has not increased the time for school, which still starts at age 5, and releases at age 18. So, man must teach the basics of his new and current knowledge in the same amount of time he had to just teach his current knowledge(to the student's parents) before. So, the students are forced to learn more stuff faster than their parents.
Now, with man's new tools derived from his new knowledge, learning has become easier. However, man's mind is still limited, in that it's not terribly more complex, if not any better than it's predecessor's brains. So, the students will one day hit a wall where they're forced to learn too much, too fast.
Hence, I belive that the actual problem is not just parents, teachers, or cash, but time; man is making his offspring do too much at once. Sooner or later, 1 of 3 things will have to happen in order to cure this: Either school will be extended(as in a grade 14 or 15 may be manditory), or schools will have to make students pick a carrer field earlier(so the students can use the time gained from not having to learn irrelivant knowledge), or the schools will have to begin replacing things not absolutely nessisary(say cutting down on world history). Either way, man will soon, if not allready has, hit a wall of time.
PS This was written after eating a lot of sugar coated food, so the writer may be a tad hyper
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