I don't know maybe it's just my parents tastes rubbing off on me, we have just always bought European/American. I don't drive an American car myself, but we have a 2003 Corvette, a 2003 Suburban, a 2000 Mercedes ML 320(what I drive) and a BMW 1200 CL Motorcycle. And I find I enjoy them better than their Japanese counterparts.
"Chevy can't match Toyota in cars."
Corvette ?
"Lincoln/Chrysler/Cadillac can't match Lexus in cars."
Lincoln LS, Cadillac Deville DTS, Cadillac XLR, these cars are worthy of comparison.
Corvette ?
"Lincoln/Chrysler/Cadillac can't match Lexus in cars."
Lincoln LS, Cadillac Deville DTS, Cadillac XLR, these cars are worthy of comparison.
Lexus ones look like chick cars IMO =/
I dunno, maybe because the only owners of them I know are females.
I dunno, maybe because the only owners of them I know are females.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Corvette = hot engine and chassis & LEGO interior/fit and finish. Closest Japanese rival would be 350Z on the low-end...Acura NSX on the high end
Lincoln LS = shoddy interior build quality and materials
Cadillac Deville DTS = bloated FWD land yacht.
Cadillac XLR = closest Japanese competitor is the Lexus SC430
The quality I won't argue with, but the styling???...really virtually all japanese cars look alike to me with the exception of the sportier models (RX8, S2000, WRX)...if anything I would have to say that American and European cars, while they do have some ugly models they also have some which have alot more personality than any Japanese car I have seen short of the supercars (Supra, NSX..etc) but that is a personal preference. Toyota, Honda etc...all look bland to me, to the point of being boring...I would take an Audi, BMW, or MB anyday from a looks standpoint, and also from an interior build perspective...but that is me.
You drive an ML320 and you talk about lexus looking like chick cars ?
dude you're driving like the Soccer mom minivan/suv of mercedes
how much is a C5 ? I think even a 99/00 NSX would give the new Vettes a run for their money. ( Overall Performance )
I hear the ride is really nice for a sports car as well 2nd to Porsche ?
NFS, you really think the 350z competes with the vette? I don't know, I cannot see a typical vette buyer really looking at something like a 350z, maybe a Cobra Mustang or a Viper....same for the NSX, I see both as something a Boxter S buyer might look at, but not someone looking at a Vette.
ML 320 isnt my first choice in cars, but I didnt buy it, getting rid of it this summer. For what, I am not sure.
The problem with American auto makers roots back to the 70s and 80s. In those days, the US auto makers were quite arrogant and thought they knew all about manufacturing automobiles. They didn't think they could learn anything from the Japanese. They also refused to believe that Japanese built quality cars. Lee Iacocca went as far as to lobby the US Gov't to restrict importing cars from Japan and pressuring them to impose an expensive tarrif on those cars. He said that the Japanese companies were taking over the US industry and forcing US citizens out of jobs. He even went on to say that the Japanese companies should start building cars in the US and see how it works out. He didn't believe that Japanese auto companies could successfully run factories in the US. How wrong he was.
The point is, that instead of creating political drama, the companies should have focused on creating QUALITY CARS!! You know, this is how J.D. Powers auto surveys started! The American car companies thought they knew their customers and what they wanted. However, lots of people were complaining about problems they faced with Domestic car dealers and the cars themselves. One stats man named J. D. Powers (forgot his first name) started out a small company dealing with marketing and surveying. Toyota was one of his first clients, they wanted him to survey the owners of Toyota vehicles to see how they found it. After a while the surveying become popular, especially when Subaru advertised it on their TV commercials. Then the US auto makers took notice. They started employing Powers to do surveys. Another researching team from MIT conducted a survey to see how Japanese, German, and Americans made cars. They found that the Japanese were the most efficient while still creating cars.
At the same time, Chrysler bought Mitsubishi, and created a joint company called Diamond Star Motors. A few management people from Chyrsler observed the DSM factories (which was operated by Mitsubishi) to see how they worked. However, the majority of the upper management at Chrysler was opposed to implementing those methods in their own factories (although it occured soon enough in small amounts).
Another thing was that American companies were notorious for taking one car, changing a few minor things such as trim, and selling it as another model. This is in part how Chyrsler made money and also how it lost money after the K-car got long in the tooth. The L/H platform (Intrepid, Cirrus, etc..) brought them back due to Lutz and Sperlich.
In short, the Domestic car companies did not care about the actual product quality, which led to their downfall. Also a lot of the managements did not have a handle on buidling cars, rather they only focused on profit with out thinking about long-term growth. Fortunately they are try to get out of that hole now, however it will take them a long time before they get rid of the stigma of cheap cars.
A lot of this info came from a book called "Behind the Wheel of Chrylser: The Iacocca Legacy" by Doron P. Levin, which is a great book. I recommend it to anyone whos interesting to learn about the inner workings of the auto-industry.
I hope this post was somewhat interesting and informative to some of you.
The point is, that instead of creating political drama, the companies should have focused on creating QUALITY CARS!! You know, this is how J.D. Powers auto surveys started! The American car companies thought they knew their customers and what they wanted. However, lots of people were complaining about problems they faced with Domestic car dealers and the cars themselves. One stats man named J. D. Powers (forgot his first name) started out a small company dealing with marketing and surveying. Toyota was one of his first clients, they wanted him to survey the owners of Toyota vehicles to see how they found it. After a while the surveying become popular, especially when Subaru advertised it on their TV commercials. Then the US auto makers took notice. They started employing Powers to do surveys. Another researching team from MIT conducted a survey to see how Japanese, German, and Americans made cars. They found that the Japanese were the most efficient while still creating cars.
At the same time, Chrysler bought Mitsubishi, and created a joint company called Diamond Star Motors. A few management people from Chyrsler observed the DSM factories (which was operated by Mitsubishi) to see how they worked. However, the majority of the upper management at Chrysler was opposed to implementing those methods in their own factories (although it occured soon enough in small amounts).
Another thing was that American companies were notorious for taking one car, changing a few minor things such as trim, and selling it as another model. This is in part how Chyrsler made money and also how it lost money after the K-car got long in the tooth. The L/H platform (Intrepid, Cirrus, etc..) brought them back due to Lutz and Sperlich.
In short, the Domestic car companies did not care about the actual product quality, which led to their downfall. Also a lot of the managements did not have a handle on buidling cars, rather they only focused on profit with out thinking about long-term growth. Fortunately they are try to get out of that hole now, however it will take them a long time before they get rid of the stigma of cheap cars.
A lot of this info came from a book called "Behind the Wheel of Chrylser: The Iacocca Legacy" by Doron P. Levin, which is a great book. I recommend it to anyone whos interesting to learn about the inner workings of the auto-industry.
I hope this post was somewhat interesting and informative to some of you.
Toyota makes some reliable cars. My dad had a pickup that lasted 13 years, and I have some fond memories of it (being my first car and the one I used in high school).
BTW, I might not relate, but I know where LeeTJ's coming from. My parents tell me they feel some resentment towards the Japanese for the occupation. The Japanese occupied Korea from 1910 until the end of WW2. They made the men slaves for the war effort and made the women sex slaves for the Japanese army. It's a sad period in Korean history that ended only ~60 years ago, so I can understand the resentment (especially since Japan has refused to officially compensate the victims).
BTW, I might not relate, but I know where LeeTJ's coming from. My parents tell me they feel some resentment towards the Japanese for the occupation. The Japanese occupied Korea from 1910 until the end of WW2. They made the men slaves for the war effort and made the women sex slaves for the Japanese army. It's a sad period in Korean history that ended only ~60 years ago, so I can understand the resentment (especially since Japan has refused to officially compensate the victims).
As long as the UAW remain as it is right now, it'll be hard for Ford & GM to compete with Toyota. They might be able to upgrade all their manufacturing plants to the same standard with Toyota, but what about the personnel that actually doing the manuufacturing work?
"Lincoln LS = shoddy interior build quality and materials
Cadillac Deville DTS = bloated FWD land yacht.
Cadillac XLR = closest Japanese competitor is the Lexus SC430"
Yeah, but my point was you said they can't match Lexus. Depending on what you want out of a car they are certainly worth looking at. I don't have anything against Lexus, but the Lincoln LS is a very sharp car, and if you look at the power to weight ratio of the Deville DTS compared to the Lexus LS 430 you might be surprised, based on your characterization..
LS 430... 290hp curb weight 3945lbs power/weight 13.6lbs/hp
Deville DTS..300hp, curb weight 4047 power/weight 13.49lbs/hp
And given that a lot of people want a roomy full sized car to travel the interstate, the Deville DTS might be just the right car.
Cadillac Deville DTS = bloated FWD land yacht.
Cadillac XLR = closest Japanese competitor is the Lexus SC430"
Yeah, but my point was you said they can't match Lexus. Depending on what you want out of a car they are certainly worth looking at. I don't have anything against Lexus, but the Lincoln LS is a very sharp car, and if you look at the power to weight ratio of the Deville DTS compared to the Lexus LS 430 you might be surprised, based on your characterization..
LS 430... 290hp curb weight 3945lbs power/weight 13.6lbs/hp
Deville DTS..300hp, curb weight 4047 power/weight 13.49lbs/hp
And given that a lot of people want a roomy full sized car to travel the interstate, the Deville DTS might be just the right car.
Originally posted by: NFS4
I was stretching thereI was just trying to get something in there that could be close to a base Vette in price. And that would be a 350Z Track Edition.
Back in the day, the 300ZX was head to head with the Vette, RX7, Supra, and 3000GT/Stealth
NFS, when you say "head to head" are you talking performance or target market?? from a performance standpoint I see where you are comming from but from a target market I still wouldn't see any of those cars appealing to the same market, well the 300zx, RX7, Supra and 300gtVR4/Stealth TT I see all appealing to the same market, but for some reason I see the Corvette really appealing to a limited and specific target market that would really never consider anything but a "classic" muscle car, or an American V8+ muscle car like a souped up stang or a hypo camaro or firebird....comming from hanging out in past circles, most people whom I knew to be buyers of american muscle would never consider anything foreign...my brother did love his 93 3000GT VR4 though, and the auto spoilers and adjustable suspension and exhaust was cool
I think it's more of a Quality control issue.
Majority of the Toyotas are built here, but they don't suffer from poor reliability as the Domestic US cars, why is that ?
that makes me wonder.
Lexus Service bend over backwards to please it's customers. That tells you that they are very anal about pleasing their customers in every way possible.
I don't recall any Domestic Luxury service doing anything like that or even getting any recognition for it.
With your looks comment I have to agree, the only Lexus that I find somewhat appealing is the IS300, that is a pretty sharp car but I know more than a few older people consider it the black sheep of the Lexus family simply because they think it is cheap...for some reason though I really appreciate the looks of the Lincoln LS, I think it has a certain personality to it that looks classic yet modern and very nice, I wish I could say the same for the CTS...uugh...but the hard top convert Caddy has is really sharp, too bad the price is stupifying even though it is supposed to be a monster with re. performance (based off the vette?).
Then again I am somewhat biased as I really abhore big cars and much prefer sportier smaller rides...easier for me to drive and much better looking IMHO.
From experience Domestic service sucks pretty bad...my parents had alot of Caddys and also a few lincolns and the service was pretty poor, German dealers on the other hand are very responsive and rather friendly...I used to work for a Saab dealer and I have yet to visit another dealer that provided as good of service as that one dealership I worked at...they really cared about their customer and it showed with the repeat business they got.
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