Pro-choice?

[BoberFett]

Wow, how high is that horse you're on nan0bug? Did I ask for your pity you sonofabitch? Nope, I'm just venting about an injustice in this society.

It's too bad I don't know more about your past. I'm sure you've got some skeletons waiting to pop out. Unless you're a saint, like the rest of the judgemental assholes around here.

 

[BoberFett]

mcveigh

You're pissed at your sister-in-law because she chose to not make you an uncle? Isn't that pretty selfish?

 

[nan0bug]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Wow, how high is that horse you're on nan0bug? Did I ask for your pity you sonofabitch? Nope, I'm just venting about an injustice in this society.

It's too bad I don't know more about your past. I'm sure you've got some skeletons waiting to pop out. Unless you're a saint, like the rest of the judgemental assholes around here.

If you don't want to be judged, don't go spouting off some irresponsible crap like 'wah, just because -I- didn't want the kid, she shouldn't be allowed to have the baby and take me for child support, even though -I- had the opportunity to prevent the kid from ever becoming an issue and decided condoms are inconvenient'

For the record, I have plenty of skeletons in my past to be dug up. The difference is, I've taken responsibility for them. There is nothing you can tell me about my past that I havent already realized 10x over. You seem to be content blaming someone else for your 'problem'. Like I said before, cry me a river.

 

[BoberFett]

Very interesting nanobug. According to your blog, as of 11/24/02:

I need to do something, bouncing from sh!tty job to sh!tty job is getting old and isn't helping my resume look any better.

Im saving up for a new computer, but christmas is going to deplete my fundage a bit. Anyway, hopefully by the end of january I should be using a P4 2.4ghz w/ a radeon 9700pro.

So you didn't have much of a job, and didn't have much money but you're thinking about building a new computer. The just a couple weeks later on 12/8/02 you say:

seriously though, this job market sucks. it seems my hours are either insane to the point that I have problems making it to work because of the odd shifts, or minimal to the point that I can barely afford to pay my bills and eat more than mac and cheese and ramen noodles.

so, if you're reading this, and you need someone to do system administration stuff, i'm no expert but I know what I'm doing and I'm careful -- what I dont know I can learn, and I learn quickly. Im going to school for business administration, my job history blows, and I'm finding it hard to keep diapers on my daughter's ass, so GIVE ME A JOB PLEASE!

Maybe you wouldn't have such a hard time taking care of your daughters needs if you'd spend a little less on your wants, you selfish jerk.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Wow, how high is that horse you're on nan0bug? Did I ask for your pity you sonofabitch? Nope, I'm just venting about an injustice in this society.

It's too bad I don't know more about your past. I'm sure you've got some skeletons waiting to pop out. Unless you're a saint, like the rest of the judgemental assholes around here.

So much for keeping this a decent debate and avoiding the flame throwing.

Guess the truth hurts when it hits you where it counts, eh?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Wow, how high is that horse you're on nan0bug? Did I ask for your pity you sonofabitch? Nope, I'm just venting about an injustice in this society.

It's too bad I don't know more about your past. I'm sure you've got some skeletons waiting to pop out. Unless you're a saint, like the rest of the judgemental assholes around here.

So much for keeping this a decent debate and avoiding the flame throwing.

Guess the truth hurts when it hits you where it counts, eh?

I didn't get nasty until Mr. Neglect-his-daughter went after me, instead of the topic.

Edit: I didn't start this thread looking for pity, I expect none. I deal with my individual situation and it's nobody's problem but mine. But the overriding problem is that there's inequality in the legal system when it comes to men and children in this country. To the men that have to deal with it, it's as big a problem as racism or sexism or agism or any other -ism that ends up discriminating against an entire group. Fathers in this country have very few rights as compared to mothers. Mothers can go into court, shed a tear in front of the judge, and the father is helpless to do anything about it. If a mother even hints at abuse, true or not most courts will take the child from the father. Yet I know of situations where the mother is a habitual drug user and convicted felon and gets to keep her four kids. Where's the justice there? That's why I started this thread.

If women are pissed about inequality in the workplace, I don't blame them. I think women should be paid the same for the same work. But I'm not a rich white slaver, so don't try to hoist the entire problem of the female gender onto my shoulders. Rather than trying to turn two wrongs into a right: workplace inequality and family inequality, let's fix both of them. Unfortunately, due to the attitudes of many people around here who do nothing but sit around and judge others, the injustices that many fathers are subject to are barely recognized in this country.

 

[Tom]

It's simple really. A woman has the right to control what happens in her own body.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
It's simple really. A woman has the right to control what happens in her own body.

Really? Well it's my sperm and I want it back.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Wow, how high is that horse you're on nan0bug? Did I ask for your pity you sonofabitch? Nope, I'm just venting about an injustice in this society.

It's too bad I don't know more about your past. I'm sure you've got some skeletons waiting to pop out. Unless you're a saint, like the rest of the judgemental assholes around here.

So much for keeping this a decent debate and avoiding the flame throwing.

Guess the truth hurts when it hits you where it counts, eh?

I didn't get nasty until Mr. Neglect-his-daughter went after me, instead of the topic.

Edit: I didn't start this thread looking for pity, I expect none. I deal with my individual situation and it's nobody's problem but mine. But the overriding problem is that there's inequality in the legal system when it comes to men and children in this country. To the men that have to deal with it, it's as big a problem as racism or sexism or agism or any other -ism that ends up discriminating against an entire group. Fathers in this country have very few rights as compared to mothers. Mothers can go into court, shed a tear in front of the judge, and the father is helpless to do anything about it. If a mother even hints at abuse, true or not most courts will take the child from the father. Yet I know of situations where the mother is a habitual drug user and convicted felon and gets to keep her four kids. Where's the justice there? That's why I started this thread.

If women are pissed about inequality in the workplace, I don't blame them. I think women should be paid the same for the same work. But I'm not a rich white slaver, so don't try to hoist the entire problem of the female gender onto my shoulders. Rather than trying to turn two wrongs into a right: workplace inequality and family inequality, let's fix both of them. Unfortunately, due to the attitudes of many people around here who do nothing but sit around and judge others, the injustices that many fathers are subject to are barely recognized in this country.

I can somewhat understand your frustration but you still fail to realize you could have prevented it from happening AT ALL. It's frustrating to me that you cannot admit that. Confusing.

But, not all fathers are screwed over by the court system.

In fact, had I pressed harder, I could most likely have gotten primary custodial parent in my divorce and have my girls all of the time (except for every other weekend). I decided not to do that to my daughters, though, and my ex and I split visitation 50/50. And, I pay very little in the way of child support as my ex is capable of providing a good standard of living for her and my daughters on her own.

Maybe I had a great lawyer and/or got lucky w/the judge but the judge in the case is generally disliked by the Bar here due to her inconsistent judgements.

Anyway...I digress.

:beer:

 

[shimsham]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
It's simple really. A woman has the right to control what happens in her own body.

and she can keep her legs closed, just as the man can keep the zipper up.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
It's simple really. A woman has the right to control what happens in her own body.

Really? Well it's my sperm and I want it back.

You should be more careful with it if it's so dear to you.

 

[nan0bug]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Very interesting nanobug. According to your blog, as of 11/24/02:

I need to do something, bouncing from sh!tty job to sh!tty job is getting old and isn't helping my resume look any better.

Im saving up for a new computer, but christmas is going to deplete my fundage a bit. Anyway, hopefully by the end of january I should be using a P4 2.4ghz w/ a radeon 9700pro.

So you didn't have much of a job, and didn't have much money but you're thinking about building a new computer. The just a couple weeks later on 12/8/02 you say:

seriously though, this job market sucks. it seems my hours are either insane to the point that I have problems making it to work because of the odd shifts, or minimal to the point that I can barely afford to pay my bills and eat more than mac and cheese and ramen noodles.

so, if you're reading this, and you need someone to do system administration stuff, i'm no expert but I know what I'm doing and I'm careful -- what I dont know I can learn, and I learn quickly. Im going to school for business administration, my job history blows, and I'm finding it hard to keep diapers on my daughter's ass, so GIVE ME A JOB PLEASE!

Maybe you wouldn't have such a hard time taking care of your daughters needs if you'd spend a little less on your wants, you selfish jerk.

Well, since I didn't update my blog, I didn't post the part about how I ended up using the same computer until around May of this year. If you want to do some more digging, you will see my posts in FS/FT around that time that will correspond with that timeframe.

At that time, when I was thinking about buying a new computer, I was making good enough money, my ex and I were still together, and she was at home with our baby most of the time. The computer wasn't just for me, it was for -us- since she was at home most of the time. As far as the job, a job can be sh!tty and pay well at the same time. I bet most of the people on this board have referred to their job as sh!tty at one point in time or another, including you. Working in a railroad spike factory for $10/hr isn't exactly lucrative employment.

The second post just re-iterates the first, and should give you some insight as to why I didn't get a new computer until 6 months later. The temp job at the railroad factory ended, and I took a cook job at Ruby Tuesdays with really screwed up shifts and scheduling. You'll note that I mentioned nothing of a new computer, and you'll also note my continued interest in finding a better job.

I don't really feel the need to explain myself or my financial status to you, but I have nothing to hide so if you have a burning desire to know, feel free to ask.

I never said that making the sacrifices I have made was easy. My life has gone through about 3 different ups and downs in the past year, and I'm by no standard a perfect person who does everything right, and I've even slipped up a couple times. Mistakes are made and learned from. However, my responsibilities to my child always come first, and I don't whine about it or shrug them off because I made the choice to take on those responsibilities.

Yes, I bought myself a computer in May. I came up with the finances for it by doing away with other things in my life that I deemed less important, like cable. I never used any money that would have went to my daughters needs for my own personal gain.

My daughter still has everything she wants and more. See, you're stuck on material things -- my daughter doesn't even play with toys. She plays with our cat. She plays with crayons. When I do buy her toys, she plays with them for a little while and then they just sit in her toybox, because most of the time she is over here I keep her occupied enough that she has no desire to play with some inanimate object. I would much rather she spend her time doing something constructive, like learning.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: shimsham

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
It's simple really. A woman has the right to control what happens in her own body.

and she can keep her legs closed, just as the man can keep the zipper up.

Yea, but she doesn't lose the right to control her own body just because she's pregnant. The only issue is when and if a fetus has rights, and when the state has the authority to say that those rights supercede the rights of the woman.

Otherwise you have to believe that a pregnant woman is some kind of second class human being.

Which is exactly what some people think..

 

[Ness]

I think it's about time for me to stop being involved in this thread.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: conjur
I can somewhat understand your frustration but you still fail to realize you could have prevented it from happening AT ALL. It's frustrating to me that you cannot admit that. Confusing.

But, not all fathers are screwed over by the court system.

In fact, had I pressed harder, I could most likely have gotten primary custodial parent in my divorce and have my girls all of the time (except for every other weekend). I decided not to do that to my daughters, though, and my ex and I split visitation 50/50. And, I pay very little in the way of child support as my ex is capable of providing a good standard of living for her and my daughters on her own.

Maybe I had a great lawyer and/or got lucky w/the judge but the judge in the case is generally disliked by the Bar here due to her inconsistent judgements.

Anyway...I digress.

:beer:

I'm not sure where you see me not recognizing that I could have prevented it completely beforehand. Sure I could have, but that's not my issue. My problem is that after the initial act of discretion which requires two willing and understanding parties (assuming there was no rape) only one of those same two parties has any options.

An analogy, if you will:

A man and a woman are driving down the road towards each other. They are both speeding, weaving back and forth between lanes, talking on their cell phones. They have a head on collision. Both of them are equally at fault, they were both acting in the same reckless manner. The man and woman could both decide that they were at fault and repair their cars themselves. But the woman decides that she doesn't want to pay for her car. She goes in front of a judge and the judge orders the man to pay for the damages to her car, and she owes him nothing.

Both the man and the woman are responsible for the act which cause the situation, but one of the has a choice and the other has none. Fair? Not a chance.

 

[Tom]

Your issue isn't with the law, it's with how reproduction works. There is no possible way that it could be "fair" for a man to have any say about what a woman does with her body.

Even people who oppose abortion wouldn't do so on that basis unless they think women are subhuman.

On your issues about what happens with kids and the presumption that women get preference in custody cases, I somewhat agree with your points.

 

[Thraxen]

Even people who oppose abortion wouldn't do so on that basis unless they think women are subhuman.

That has never been the issue. It's whether you think the unborn child/fetus (whatever you call it, it's still human) is sub-human. See how easy that is to turn around?

 

[NetGuySC]

I'm all for forcing kids to live with parents/parent whom never wanted them born and then they are abused for years for being born.

I am also for moving these same kids from foster home to foster home (where some are abused again) while their parents/parent are being punished/jailed for abusing their kid.

I am also for repeating this endless cycle.

Unwanted children of the recent past and present are a huge part of the many social problems that we face today in this great nation.

I believe in abortion in the first trimester..
but then I have to think "WWJD" and it becomes more clouded.

 

[BoberFett]

nanobug

Well I'm glad that I was wrong about you, and that you do take good care of your daughter. And regardless of what impression you have of me, I'm a great father. I don't buy my daughter a ton of things, materialistic is not something those who know me would say about me. I'd prefer to read to her or take her to the park. Instead of a fancy toy, I bought her some sidewalk chalk at Target last weekend for $1.99 and we spent time drawing on the sidewalk. I built her a computer from some old spare parts I had lying around so we can play her computer games together and we watch movies together, I never use them as a babysitter. When my daughter is with me, she's my focus 100%. And even when she's not with me she's in my thoughts. I'm happy to pay child support for her. Even if the court wasn't involved, I'd happily give money to her mother, my ex-wife, so that she could have whatever she needed. But this is a child that I wanted. Even though her mother and I are divorced, I've never for a day not wanted to be with my daughter and would gladly give up anything for her.

The other situation was a very short term girlfriend that I had a couple of years ago very soon after my wife and I split up. I don't even really remember much about the time period, I spent most of it drunk off my rocker. I was horrible person back then, and did a lot of things I regret. Finding out that she was pregnant was a sobering experience, pardon the pun. I told her immediately that I didn't want to have any more kids and that if she decided to have the kid, she was going to raise it without me. I tried to convince her to put the kid up for adoption, because I know she's horribly irresponsible (even at my worst, I was more responsible than her) and couldn't raise a kid. Hell, she drank and smoked throughout the pregnancy. Shirking her responsibility to make sure this child had a normal upbrining, she decided to raise it herself. Only she's not exactly doing it herself, she's using the state to extort money out me. And this is what I think needs to be changed.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Even people who oppose abortion wouldn't do so on that basis unless they think women are subhuman.

That has never been the issue. It's whether you think the unborn child/fetus (whatever you call it, it's still human) is sub-human. See how easy that is to turn around?

That isn't the issue either, really. Even if you believe the fetus is a full human being with all rights, there is still a conflict with the woman who also has the same rights.

Saying that the government can compel a woman to let the fetus live inside her is essentially the same thing as saying that the government can compel a person to donate their kidney to someone who needs it to live.

Do you really want the government to have that power ?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Your issue isn't with the law, it's with how reproduction works. There is no possible way that it could be "fair" for a man to have any say about what a woman does with her body.

Therein lies the problem. Depending on how it suits somebody's purposes, a fetus can either be just a part of the woman's body, or it can be separate entity.

If a woman wants to have an abortion, all she's doing is getting rid of a part of her body. It's hers and she can do with it what she wants.

If a woman wants to extort money from a man, it's not just a part of her body, it's something that the man helped put there.

So which is it? Does it belong to the man or doesn't it? If it does belong to the man, then he should have the right to say what happens to it. If it doesn't belong to the man then he shouldn't have to pay for it.

Thank you Parrot Sketch, for helping me make my point perfectly.

 

[Thraxen]

Saying that the government can compel a woman to let the fetus live inside her is essentially the same thing as saying that the government can compel a person to donate their kidney to someone who needs it to live. Do you really want the government to have that power ?

I guess so since too many people don't want to deal with the consequences of their own actions. I simply don't think it's right to kill an unborn human just because you didn't really want to have a child. Your kidney example has nothing to do with taking responsibilty for one's own actions.

 

[nan0bug]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: conjur
I can somewhat understand your frustration but you still fail to realize you could have prevented it from happening AT ALL. It's frustrating to me that you cannot admit that. Confusing.

But, not all fathers are screwed over by the court system.

In fact, had I pressed harder, I could most likely have gotten primary custodial parent in my divorce and have my girls all of the time (except for every other weekend). I decided not to do that to my daughters, though, and my ex and I split visitation 50/50. And, I pay very little in the way of child support as my ex is capable of providing a good standard of living for her and my daughters on her own.

Maybe I had a great lawyer and/or got lucky w/the judge but the judge in the case is generally disliked by the Bar here due to her inconsistent judgements.

Anyway...I digress.

:beer:

I'm not sure where you see me not recognizing that I could have prevented it completely beforehand. Sure I could have, but that's not my issue. My problem is that after the initial act of discretion which requires two willing and understanding parties (assuming there was no rape) only one of those same two parties has any options.

An analogy, if you will:

A man and a woman are driving down the road towards each other. They are both speeding, weaving back and forth between lanes, talking on their cell phones. They have a head on collision. Both of them are equally at fault, they were both acting in the same reckless manner. The man and woman could both decide that they were at fault and repair their cars themselves. But the woman decides that she doesn't want to pay for her car. She goes in front of a judge and the judge orders the man to pay for the damages to her car, and she owes him nothing.

Both the man and the woman are responsible for the act which cause the situation, but one of the has a choice and the other has none. Fair? Not a chance.

I see your point, but you're overlooking the obvious here in your analogy. You're playing ignorant to the fact that she has to make the decision to either overcome her maternal instinct and choose abortion/adoption, or keep the child. Either choice will have lasting repercussions for her that you will never understand. Keeping the child alone when the other party is not interested may be foolish, may be against the childs best interest, and many other things -- however, every time you have sex, you have to think of the fact that, no matter how foolish it may be, no matter how much you may not like it, the possibility is ALWAYS there.

I'm not saying its right that the guy should get extorted for money -- I agree with you to a point that the courts are far too tilted in the womans favor as far as child support goes, and far too many women abuse the system. However, complaining about it doesn't change the fact that you and everyone else knows beforehand how it goes. The car analogy is flawed because the man in the wreck knew he would get screwed in that situation and chose to talk on the cell phone anyway, when he could have invested in one of those hands-free phones and avoided the situation altogether.

Yes, it sucks. No, its not worth complaining about. Until people figure out that "I'm on birth control" should be filed away with nigerian money laundering and pyramid schemes, the situation will continue to exist.

 

[UnatcoAgent]

Yes I'm pro choice, it is the woman's decision. Case shut for me.

 

[shimsham]

so just because reproduction works the way it does, men have no rights when it comes to pregnancies they helped create, and would be held responsible for if the woman wanted to pursue that route instead of abortion? if thats the case, than does the man have the right to abandon the mother and child if he doesnt want to take responsibility? i mean if its her body, and her choice, then its her problem by that reasoning.

if the woman lets the man plant his seed, then she should allow him to have a say in any outcome because of it, since they both know a child could come of it.