Pro-choice?

[DOSfan]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald

Originally posted by: conjur

To assume automatically that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" simply because an abortion was not performed is just utterly ludicrous.

I rarely assume anything that general, and certainly wasn't assuming that all children born in these circumstances will suffer. What I was assuming was that there is a statistically signifigant correlation between unexpected pregnancy + poverty and a general decline in quality of life (at some point we're talking about a fairly large decline). In conjunction with the statistics quoted above about the effectiveness of standard birth control, I could not possibly support an all out ban on "medically unnecessary" abortions.

Well, I was referring to yayo's statement that assumes, off-the-bat, that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" if it's not aborted.

Amazingly closed-minded statement.

And, I'll agree that having an unexpected child can lower the standard of one's living but I'll qualify that with the addition of it only happening to someone under, say, the age of 22 who's not completed their education. A child doesn't need heaps of toys every Christmas, the latest version of XBOX, etc. A child just wants the love of its parents and enjoy friendship of others the same age (school, day care, neighborhood).

Again I must oppose you conjur. I am 30, have completed my education, and have just started making enough to support myself and my habits. (PC's, consoles, music, movies, etc. )

Some of my life, of course is my own fault. But there is definately a level of responcibilty to the economy, and the lack of a "good" work environment.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald

Originally posted by: conjur
Thanks.

But, couple condom usage with a) contraception and b) withdrawal before climax and those percentages of unexpected pregnancies would drop to, I would think, nil.

Nil? you're talking about combining ~92% effectiveness and ~95% effectiveness and getting 100%.

(yes you could add withdrawal, but that's a potential combination that has probably seen almost no application)

While combinations will result in substantially less risk, we're still talking about an appreciable risk for any person engaging in sex on a regular basis. The combination above will yield a failure rate that is (i believe) worse than .1% (per year). That means > 1 in a thousand PER year.

And, so, for that one-tenth of one percent we're supposed to just let them go right on ahead and abort the baby simply because it would make their lives inconvenient or force them to sacrifice a little for the sake of the child?

Sorry...not buying that argument.

 

[Kadarin]

I am 100% absolutely and positively pro-choice, and I feel that it is the woman who should have that choice.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DOSfan

Originally posted by: conjur

Well, I was referring to yayo's statement that assumes, off-the-bat, that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" if it's not aborted.

Amazingly closed-minded statement.

And, I'll agree that having an unexpected child can lower the standard of one's living but I'll qualify that with the addition of it only happening to someone under, say, the age of 22 who's not completed their education. A child doesn't need heaps of toys every Christmas, the latest version of XBOX, etc. A child just wants the love of its parents and enjoy friendship of others the same age (school, day care, neighborhood).

Again I must oppose you conjur. I am 30, have completed my education, and have just started making enough to support myself and my habits. (PC's, consoles, music, movies, etc. )

Some of my life, of course is my own fault. But there is definately a level of responcibilty to the economy, and the lack of a "good" work environment.

Forgive me, DOSFan, but I fail to see on what points I made you're disagreeing? What are you trying to say?

 

[CrazyDe1]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CrazyDe1

It doesn't necessarily mean that the child will suffer a piss poor life. It's great if you have responsible parents but most people who consider an abortion and do this aren't very responsible. The chances are pretty high if the child is unwanted and it's a complete burden on a single mother who is forced to have a kid that the child will not be taken care of.

For example, one of my friends had a kid when she was 18 and now her friend's mom takes care of the kid and the kid is sick and hungry a lot of the time. The little girl is neglected and causes all sorts of trouble at school. Given the choice between being raised like that and not having a kid I'd take not having the kid even though I am attached to her little girl.

You know what I say in a situation like that? Turn the mother in to Child Services. She should be taken to task to be a responsible parent. Where is this mother's parents and why aren't they either supporting her or demanding she work on getting assistance to care for the child? Where are the mother's friends who should be doing the same? Turning a blind eye to a problem won't make it go away.

And, another problem, some are too afraid (or too stupid) to seek help available to them. Food stamps, WIC, housing assistance, etc. should be sufficient to allow someone to get on their feet while they get a job and start properly caring for their child. I know...I've been there and I know people who've either been there, too, or are in that position now.

But really, how good of a job of raising a kid is someone who is forced into doing it going to do? Sure they could be forced into trying to be responsible. But think the child is also going to be denied opportunities to do things such as play catch, join activities, get taught basic things growing up. Sure you're going to raise a kid but if you look at the kid as a burden you're never going to put in the time and effort it takes to be a really quality parent and the kid will know this...

Although I do think that if abortions were too easy to get that a lot of people who would actually enjoy having a kid and be great parents would take the easy way out and get an abortion....

 

[DOSfan]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: DOSfan

Originally posted by: conjur

Well, I was referring to yayo's statement that assumes, off-the-bat, that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" if it's not aborted.

Amazingly closed-minded statement.

And, I'll agree that having an unexpected child can lower the standard of one's living but I'll qualify that with the addition of it only happening to someone under, say, the age of 22 who's not completed their education. A child doesn't need heaps of toys every Christmas, the latest version of XBOX, etc. A child just wants the love of its parents and enjoy friendship of others the same age (school, day care, neighborhood).

Again I must oppose you conjur. I am 30, have completed my education, and have just started making enough to support myself and my habits. (PC's, consoles, music, movies, etc. )

Some of my life, of course is my own fault. But there is definately a level of responcibilty to the economy, and the lack of a "good" work environment.

Forgive me, DOSFan, but I fail to see on what points I made you're disagreeing? What are you trying to say?

Your right, I should have made it more clear. My apologies. I bolded the relevent sentence in your quote this time.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CrazyDe1

But really, how good of a job of raising a kid is someone who is forced into doing it going to do? Sure they could be forced into trying to be responsible. But think the child is also going to be denied opportunities to do things such as play catch, join activities, get taught basic things growing up. Sure you're going to raise a kid but if you look at the kid as a burden you're never going to put in the time and effort it takes to be a really quality parent and the kid will know this...

Although I do think that if abortions were too easy to get that a lot of people who would actually enjoy having a kid and be great parents would take the easy way out and get an abortion....

When put into difficult situations, many people have accomplished great things.

I'm just trying to get across that ASSUMING off-the-bat that a child NOT aborted will suffer in its life is an inappropriate generalization.

 

[Bryophyte]

I think that one of the biggest problems with people concerning this subject is that they do not clarify their intentions and beliefs before they hit the sack. I made it perfectly clear with every partner I ever had, before anything happened, that although I didn't want to have a kid at that point in my life, and despite being pro-choice, I would personally never chose to have an abortion. And though not all of the men I ever slept with were serious boyfriends (some were just FWB), I never had sex with someone unless I considered how it would be to co-parent a child with him for 18 years.

Clarify things beforehand, and use your damn head before you have sex. You know, you play, you pay.

 

[TMPadmin]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
I am 100% absolutely and positively pro-choice, and I feel that it is the woman who should have that choice.

I am 100% Pro-Life and belive that life begins at conception and nobody has the right to take the life away from that child. Especially not two people (or one in your case) who couldn't make the decision to satisfy themselves in some other fashion. I'm not against sex but you have to be responsible for your actions. It's statements like these *both yours and mine* that cause the chaos assiciated with this issue. There is no middle ground.

Everyone argueing about the child having a poor life doesn't seem to realize that there are people wanting children. If you know you can't take care of a child let someone who can and wants to, do so!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DOSfan

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: DOSfan

Originally posted by: conjur

Well, I was referring to yayo's statement that assumes, off-the-bat, that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" if it's not aborted.

Amazingly closed-minded statement.

And, I'll agree that having an unexpected child can lower the standard of one's living but I'll qualify that with the addition of it only happening to someone under, say, the age of 22 who's not completed their education. A child doesn't need heaps of toys every Christmas, the latest version of XBOX, etc. A child just wants the love of its parents and enjoy friendship of others the same age (school, day care, neighborhood).

Again I must oppose you conjur. I am 30, have completed my education, and have just started making enough to support myself and my habits. (PC's, consoles, music, movies, etc. )

Some of my life, of course is my own fault. But there is definately a level of responcibilty to the economy, and the lack of a "good" work environment.

Forgive me, DOSFan, but I fail to see on what points I made you're disagreeing? What are you trying to say?

Your right, I should have made it more clear. My apologies. I bolded the relevent sentence in your quote this time.

Gotcha.

Ok, I generalized a bit...my bad

But, typically, by the age of 22...23, one has completed college (if one elected to do so) and probably has that first job in the line of an anticipated career. And, if one did not elect to go to college, then a good 3-4 years on the job and a steady income and probably an apartment or, heck, maybe even a house. It boils down to becoming a responsible adult. From that point, one should be able to sustain a family. And, if a little help is needed, there are plenty of avenues for that.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald

Originally posted by: conjur
Thanks.

But, couple condom usage with a) contraception and b) withdrawal before climax and those percentages of unexpected pregnancies would drop to, I would think, nil.

Nil? you're talking about combining ~92% effectiveness and ~95% effectiveness and getting 100%.

(yes you could add withdrawal, but that's a potential combination that has probably seen almost no application)

While combinations will result in substantially less risk, we're still talking about an appreciable risk for any person engaging in sex on a regular basis. The combination above will yield a failure rate that is (i believe) worse than .1% (per year). That means > 1 in a thousand PER year.

And, so, for that one-tenth of one percent we're supposed to just let them go right on ahead and abort the baby simply because it would make their lives inconvenient or force them to sacrifice a little for the sake of the child?

Sorry...not buying that argument.

I think it's closer to 4 tenths of a percent/year. Given as little as 20 million sexually active individuals, the number of potential children who *WILL* have a very bad, piss poor childhood is appreciable.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

anyway, I've seen enough abused children growing up in poverty to have formed a personal opinion. Even if we're talking about a small minority of unwanted pregnancies resulting in this kind of life, I can't understand why they should have to experience these horrible things just to teach their stupid parents a not necessarilly effective lesson.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
anyway, I've seen enough abused children growing up in poverty to have formed a personal opinion. Even if we're talking about a small minority of unwanted pregnancies resulting in this kind of life, I can't understand why they should have to experience these horrible things just to teach their stupid parents a not necessarilly effective lesson.

So, do we force sterilization on people?

Or, as Keanu's character said in Parenthood:

....you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father.

and then we require licenses to be a parent?

 

[Ulfwald]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald

Originally posted by: conjur

To assume automatically that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" simply because an abortion was not performed is just utterly ludicrous.

I rarely assume anything that general, and certainly wasn't assuming that all children born in these circumstances will suffer. What I was assuming was that there is a statistically signifigant correlation between unexpected pregnancy + poverty and a general decline in quality of life (at some point we're talking about a fairly large decline). In conjunction with the statistics quoted above about the effectiveness of standard birth control, I could not possibly support an all out ban on "medically unnecessary" abortions.

Well, I was referring to yayo's statement that assumes, off-the-bat, that a child will "suffer a piss-poor life" if it's not aborted.

Amazingly closed-minded statement.

And, I'll agree that having an unexpected child can lower the standard of one's living but I'll qualify that with the addition of it only happening to someone under, say, the age of 22 who's not completed their education. A child doesn't need heaps of toys every Christmas, the latest version of XBOX, etc. A child just wants the love of its parents and enjoy friendship of others the same age (school, day care, neighborhood).

I will agree with this, our son does not have heaps of toys, he is only 1, but even the toys he does have usually get ignored. He is more interested in the cardboard box "daddy" cut up to make a fort out of. Evn that is passed over for hugs and kisses, and attention from my wife and I; he loves to cuddle.

My wife was a stay at home mother for the first year he was around, and still would be if finances had not forced her back to work. When we are out and about, peopl say they are amazed at how happy and well behaved he is. This, in my opinion, is because he does not have to act out to get attention from us. He knows he is loved and is safe.

I am prochoice BTW. reason being is that if abortion were made illegal, girls would still seek out abortions, and many would die from dark alley doctors. Unsterile operating rooms, poor equipment, half abortions, home made abortion kits. I remember reading an article where a mother still thought abortion was illegal, so when her teenage daughter came up pregnant, she concocted her own "abortion douche". It consisted of lysol, bleach and rubbing alcohol. The mother then used an enema bag and filled it with this solution and "washed" the baby out of her daughter. 2 days later the daughter was in the ICU with kidney failure, and internal organ deterioration, Basically her mother created a caustic drain cleaner and her organs were being disolved. She died 4 days after being admitted to the hospital.

Pro choice yes, is it my choice for an abortion? no.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
anyway, I've seen enough abused children growing up in poverty to have formed a personal opinion. Even if we're talking about a small minority of unwanted pregnancies resulting in this kind of life, I can't understand why they should have to experience these horrible things just to teach their stupid parents a not necessarilly effective lesson.

So, do we force sterilization on people?

Or, as Keanu's character said in Parenthood:

....you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father.

and then we require licenses to be a parent?

Technically, "butt-reaming" could be considered a substitute for normal sex, and thus a very effective method of birth control.

Not that I'm advocating it, and not that most women will let you, but hey, its there...

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: TMPadmin

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
I am 100% absolutely and positively pro-choice, and I feel that it is the woman who should have that choice.

I am 100% Pro-Life and belive that life begins at conception and nobody has the right to take the life away from that child. Especially not two people (or one in your case) who couldn't make the decision to satisfy themselves in some other fashion. I'm not against sex but you have to be responsible for your actions. It's statements like these *both yours and mine* that cause the chaos assiciated with this issue. There is no middle ground.

Everyone argueing about the child having a poor life doesn't seem to realize that there are people wanting children. If you know you can't take care of a child let someone who can and wants to, do so!

That's where we disagree. While "life" may indeed begin at conception, I believe it's perfectly acceptable for a mother to choose to terminate a pregnancy up until the fetus is significantly developed. To me, there is a huge difference between a fertilized zygote and a baby that has been through nine months of development. To clarify my position a bit, I am more or less against late-term abortions (unless there is dire need for one), but early term abortions should be the mother's choice.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
anyway, I've seen enough abused children growing up in poverty to have formed a personal opinion. Even if we're talking about a small minority of unwanted pregnancies resulting in this kind of life, I can't understand why they should have to experience these horrible things just to teach their stupid parents a not necessarilly effective lesson.

So, do we force sterilization on people?

Or, as Keanu's character said in Parenthood:

....you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father.

and then we require licenses to be a parent?

Presently I think voluntary abortion is a utilitarian fail-safe. I have doubts about the unintentional effects of attempting to regulate pregnancy, but we certainly could do with more education about contraception (rather than a quixotic war against sex).

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Ulfwald

I am prochoice BTW. reason being is that if abortion were made illegal, girls would still seek out abortions, and many would die from dark alley doctors. Unsterile operating rooms, poor equipment, half abortions, home made abortion kits. I remember reading an article where a mother still thought abortion was illegal, so when her teenage daughter came up pregnant, she concocted her own "abortion douche". It consisted of lysol, bleach and rubbing alcohol. The mother then used an enema bag and filled it with this solution and "washed" the baby out of her daughter. 2 days later the daughter was in the ICU with kidney failure, and internal organ deterioration, Basically her mother created a caustic drain cleaner and her organs were being disolved. She died 4 days after being admitted to the hospital.

Pro choice yes, is it my choice for an abortion? no.

I will have to agree with this, too. While I am completely pro-life, I would not want the SCOTUS to reverse Roe v. Wade for just those reasons. I am not an idiot and don't look through rose-colored glasses and realize that some girls and women will always resort to abortion. Because of that, I do think it should be done as safely as possible.

However, there appear to now be links between abortion and increased risk for breast cancer. Yet another reason to increase awareness and usage of birth control/protection.

 

[TravisT]

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
anyway, I've seen enough abused children growing up in poverty to have formed a personal opinion. Even if we're talking about a small minority of unwanted pregnancies resulting in this kind of life, I can't understand why they should have to experience these horrible things just to teach their stupid parents a not necessarilly effective lesson.

So, do we force sterilization on people?

Or, as Keanu's character said in Parenthood:

....you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father.

and then we require licenses to be a parent?

Technically, "butt-reaming" could be considered a substitute for normal sex, and thus a very effective method of birth control.

Not that I'm advocating it, and not that most women will let you, but hey, its there...

I'm pro-anal sex..... (Male to female only). lol

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
You might have a point Bober if it weren't for the fact that so many men who have children out of Wedlock shirk their responibilities.

And so do guys who have children born within a marriage

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ness1469
I'm pro-choice simply for the fact that nothing gives me the right to tell what morals they should or shouldn't have, and I don't have the privledge of making everyone feel the same way as me.

Personally, I don't like the idea of abortion. There are so many ways to avoid pregnancy, and a child shouldn't be brought into this world because their parents are too stupid to use those means. Then again, that argument works both ways.

I'm against abortion, but it's not fair for me to impose that on other people, just as they don't to me.

Funny, because I'm catholic, and the Catholic church is hell bent on ridding the world of abortion. Apparently, all un-baptized babies can't go to heaven, but my thought is that if there is a God, then he is truly great and just, and he wouldn't let that happen. Baptism is simply a tradition and although it is signifigant, it doesn't mean you love god any more or less if you aren't baptized.

I am not Catholic, but the rest I agree with totally. If one thinks it's Murder, then don't "murder", but don't go overboard because someone else disagrees with your opinion. If you are correct and it is "murder", then God(assuming one belives in it) will deal with it. That's not to say that Anti-Abortionists should just shut up, but they need to keep in mind that a Free Society needs to be convinced of Justice and not be forced to it(assuming that Abortion is indeed Murder).

Though many Religious people are convinced that Abortion is Murder, that Life begins at Conception, the Religious texts are not entirely clear on the matter. So a degree of Interpretation needs to be employed to come to that conclusion. This is why the issue is rather murky, what if the Religious element is incorrect, like they have been in times past.

 

[Geekbabe]

I dunno some people here are the best arguments for pro-choice that I've ever seen

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: yayo
I've never heard of any story involving a man taking his gf to court because he wanted his unborn baby. If there has been story, my apologies because I've never heard of one.

I think that is a solution, I wish could be made a right. Unfortunately the governments feel that it is the woman's right to decide. After all she is the one who goes through the 42+ weeks of carrying the unborn.

I'm pro choice. I don't think it's anyone's right to discuss abortion unless you are the one who is immediately involved. Unless it is you who is being faced with this issue.

There is lots of people ranting and raving abortion is killing a unborn baby, yet I do not see any of you signing up to adopt children. You want all these unwanted children to live happy lives. Why don't you go help then. Instead of ever having children of your own blood, go adopt.

First, instead of adopting a child that has not yet been born go adopt a 15 year old boy who is constantly running away from group homes, addicted to drugs and drinks and become violent. Who's been in and out of detention centers since he was 12. I urge you go save the world.

I think all you anti-abortion freaks need to STFU and go adopt. Put you money where your mouth is and go save America's children.

You are saying that anyone not "immediately involved" should not be able to discuss their opinions.
Well, if my neighbor beats their children daily, or sexually molests them, I guess I shouldn't voice their opinion. I mean after all, I'm not affected. And it's their decision to make about what they think is morally right. Maybe the dad thinks it's morally right to teach his 12 year old daughter how to have sex by having sex with her. He's the dad after all and it doesn't affect me. What gives any of us the right to tell him how to raise his kid?
We wouldn't want to "impose" our moral viewpoints on their family. That would just be wrong.

By the way, how in the hell would you know if pro-life people have adopted children. I'd really like to see your stats that show how pro-life people don't adopt. I would be willing to guess that the percentage of pro-life people who adopt is much higher than the percentage of pro-abortion people. They care more about the health and welfare of innocent children while the pro-abortion people are more selfish and materialistic and far more concerned with someone else like a baby, inconveniencing them or causing any change to their lifestyle.

 

[shimsham]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
You might have a point Bober if it weren't for the fact that so many men who have children out of Wedlock shirk their responibilities.

And so do guys who have children born within a marriage

same goes for women.

men do get shafted anytime a decision like this has to be made. be it divorce, custody, abortion, etc., 99% of the time the man has no say by default. if the man wants the baby, and the woman doesnt, why doesnt she carry it, give birth, and then give the child to the father? why should the father have his child aborted because it would be a hassle for the mother? both know pregnancy is possible when they go at it, and both should have a say on how to handle it.

i agree with Ulfwald. my children were/are the same way. people have confused what they personally want, with what a child needs. children need parents that care, love, and protect them. if they have that, they dont want all the materialistic things in life. as far as back alley abortions, that should be just one more reason to deter people from having sex until they want to handle the consequences. i know it wouldnt, but it should.

im pro-choice in the fact that i dont have the right to tell others what to do. they must decide and suffer the consequences for that. but i cant fathom, and never have, the idea of an abortion. like others have said, i made sure i could handle a child with the woman before we did the deed.

besides, who else will cut the grass or wipe for you when youre old?

 

[Ornery]

Once the Supreme Court determines that an unborn child is a ?person? under the Fourteenth Amendment, then unborn children can not constitutionally be deprived of life without due process. Just a matter of time...

Scott Peterson booked on 2 counts of murder...