- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
Thank you all for the civil conversation. The last one turned into a flame fest, and I'm partly to blame.
I just had to rant about this topic because I'm being driven to long term poverty by a short period of indiscretion (and inebriation) on my part a couple of years ago. And it's not just men that think this way, I know women who agree with me. Both my girlfriend and another good female friend think that if the man makes it very clear, very early in the pregnancy that he wants no part of the child, he should be able to sign a legal document that would absolve him of all responsibility. This way if the woman does decide to have the child, she does so knowing not to expect support.
By the way, you can all breathe a sigh of relief, I have had a vasectomy. You'll never have to worry about me reproducing again.
I just had to rant about this topic because I'm being driven to long term poverty by a short period of indiscretion (and inebriation) on my part a couple of years ago. And it's not just men that think this way, I know women who agree with me. Both my girlfriend and another good female friend think that if the man makes it very clear, very early in the pregnancy that he wants no part of the child, he should be able to sign a legal document that would absolve him of all responsibility. This way if the woman does decide to have the child, she does so knowing not to expect support.
By the way, you can all breathe a sigh of relief, I have had a vasectomy. You'll never have to worry about me reproducing again.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
And so do women.
The statistics are actually very similar. In terms of cheating on your spouse, it is something like 35% of men do it and 30% of women. And you better believe that there are plenty of irresponsible mothers, just like there are fathers (my dad ran a day care buisness so I got to see just the many kind of parents that are out there first hand).
So really, this "point" is besides the point and rather irrelevant.
As to the topic at hand, I think one of the main problems with the whole abortion debate is that the two sides are debating different things. Pro Choice people are argueing over a womans rights, and Pro Life people are argueing as to when life begins.
By using totally seperate topics to argue against each other means that a resolution, or even understanding, is hardly possible.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
- 3
- 81
Next time, you should really look in a dictionary before using words you don't understand.
This one should help you out a little.
I made no personal attacks on Yayo's character or situation.
I argued with the logic she was using to justify her point by giving an example of a case where the faults of that logic are more obvious and agreed upon.
Has nothing to do with ad-hominem
DainBramaged
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2003
- 23,454
- 41
- 91
err??? I'm sorry, was your argument well reasoned and factually sound? "Pro-Choicer's are selfish because they like abortion, so they probably don't adopt children"
heh. and here, since you wanted the dictionary:
Ohh right, I stand corrected. That had nothing to do with feelings or prejudice, and everything to do with reason.
not.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
- 3
- 81
Ad-hominem means discounting one's opinions based on their character or personal situation instead of actually arguing against the logical points they made. It is exactly the logic of Yayo's statement that I intended to argue against.
And why do people have abortions?
Because they don't want anything to interfere with their lives.
That is by definition selfish. It is putting their own comforts at a higher priority than the life of the baby.
You may say that they don't feel that they can provide for the child. That is why there is adoption. As someone pointed out, there are plenty of people who want to adopt. But adoption would require going through the entire pregnancy. That is just too much discomfort and too much of a disruption for them so they get abortions instead.
The inherent selfishness in this behavior seems more than obvious to me.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
First, to clear up your misguided and somwhat pedantic knit picking:
So yes, #2 is what you were thinking, #1 is what I meant.
Second, how can you assume the only reason someone would get an abortion is because they're selfishly thinking about their lives?
Personally, I'm extremely risk averse, and never have unprotected sex with my fiancee, primarily because I want to have children at a point in my life where I know I'll be able to give them all the advantages I didn't have. Is this selfish in a personal sense?
On a more global scale, I support the right to choose because I've seen many a child born into poverty, barely surviving, sometimes getting abused. Yeah, it would be great if the parents were living up to their responsibilities, but they're not. I feel bad for the kid. Why would I force more parents to bring more children they don't want into the world, so that they can treat them like crap instead of treasuring them?
I think that assumption you made was based on a general feeling or prejudice.
-isaac
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
- 3
- 81
LOL
So by your logic, we should just kill all the children who are in poverty or being abused because they would be better off dead?
We "force" parents to not murder their children simply because they don't want them. Is that wrong?
And actually, I still don't think I made an ad-hominem attack.
I illustrated a scenario that would make use of the same faulty logic to point out how faulty it was.
But whatever.
EDIT: no, you are not being selfish because there is no other person that you are discounting for your own wants.
And I never said there was anything inherently wrong with being selfish. Simply pointed out that people who are not selfish would be more willing to make sacrifices for their children.
I'm pro-choice for everyone else, and anti-abortion for myself.
I think that abortion has a place, and in some situations it's definately needed. However, 90% of the times that I see arguments FOR abortion, I always see "well what kind of life will they be provided with if the parents aren't ready?". This is a symptom of our overly materialistic society dictating that one's value as a person is defined by what they own.
Let me tell you what kind of life -I- provide for my daughter.
I work a part time pizza delivery job, live with a roommate, and I bring in just enough money to provide the necessities of life for my daughter and I. I postponed my college education so I could work full time to prepare myself, and now work part-time so I have the ability to be at home with my daughter instead of sending her off to daycare. I AM POOR. My daughter doesn't have her own room, she doesn't have the latest and greatest toys, and she doesn't have a big wardrobe of clothing. I went clothing shopping for myself for the first time in a year last week -- I bought a pair of jeans that were on sale and a $50 pair of shoes. This is how we live.
The fact is, my daughter doesn't care about those things. The toys she does have usually just sit in her little toybox. She still has a great life because my ex and I *gasp* spend time with her.
Of course, I wish I could provide her with more than just my time. Anyone would! However, I think far too often these days people measure success, self-worth, and even how much you are capable of loving someone in strictly materialistic ways, and that is just complete bullsh!t. Showing a child love, teaching a child responsibility, and instilling a good work ethic is in my opinion far more important than providing for them by pawning them off to day care and buying them video games to raise them for you.
The ideal situation would be to not have unexpected pregnancies happen by being responsible in the first place, but we all know that this is not an ideal world. I just think its kind of sick when someone comes on here looking for advice and a bunch of people say 'go get an abortion'. Why not 'go be a responsible person'?
I think that abortion has a place, and in some situations it's definately needed. However, 90% of the times that I see arguments FOR abortion, I always see "well what kind of life will they be provided with if the parents aren't ready?". This is a symptom of our overly materialistic society dictating that one's value as a person is defined by what they own.
Let me tell you what kind of life -I- provide for my daughter.
I work a part time pizza delivery job, live with a roommate, and I bring in just enough money to provide the necessities of life for my daughter and I. I postponed my college education so I could work full time to prepare myself, and now work part-time so I have the ability to be at home with my daughter instead of sending her off to daycare. I AM POOR. My daughter doesn't have her own room, she doesn't have the latest and greatest toys, and she doesn't have a big wardrobe of clothing. I went clothing shopping for myself for the first time in a year last week -- I bought a pair of jeans that were on sale and a $50 pair of shoes. This is how we live.
The fact is, my daughter doesn't care about those things. The toys she does have usually just sit in her little toybox. She still has a great life because my ex and I *gasp* spend time with her.
Of course, I wish I could provide her with more than just my time. Anyone would! However, I think far too often these days people measure success, self-worth, and even how much you are capable of loving someone in strictly materialistic ways, and that is just complete bullsh!t. Showing a child love, teaching a child responsibility, and instilling a good work ethic is in my opinion far more important than providing for them by pawning them off to day care and buying them video games to raise them for you.
The ideal situation would be to not have unexpected pregnancies happen by being responsible in the first place, but we all know that this is not an ideal world. I just think its kind of sick when someone comes on here looking for advice and a bunch of people say 'go get an abortion'. Why not 'go be a responsible person'?
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
- 3
- 81
Congrats.
I may disagree with your view on the legality/morality of abortion, but truly respect the sacrifices you have made.
The world would be a better place if there were more people like you and fewer of the people who "can't afford" to stay home with their children because they might have to *gasp* sell their BMW or go out to eat a little less often.
My wife and I also sacrificed to make sure we were the one's raising our kids instead of some stranger at the daycare center. I worked and went to school and we lived very poor for years. Even now, I work full-time and make good money while my wife stays home. We are often jealous of the way our friends with daycare kids live with 2 salaries. But one look at our kids makes it all worth it and makes us realize that the time we spend with them and the love they get from a stay-at-home parent is far more important than being able to buy that new car and the new furniture that we would love to have.
No you're mistaking your premise (what you refer to as my logic) for mine. I'm the one who doesn't think there's anything spectacularly miraculous about conception.
I still think you were fairly clear that the only reason for "pro-choice" is selfishness.
finally, I think we really do agree on something and that's lack of responsibility on the part of perspective parents. In an ideal world, there would be no need for abortion. Unfortunately we live in a world populated by only semi-rational people, who often (as illustrated in the previous thread that got locked) seem to have trouble properly connecting the dots of sex->conception->child birth. On top of that as quoted above, even an extremely risk averse person that has recreational sex, does so with an appreciable risk of conception (with conjur's scheme, it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 4/10 of 1 percent, per year, per couple).
I am in a unique situation. I am fully Pro-Life however I do not necessarily believe in God as in Christianity or Catholicism. My opinions on the subject are purely scientific. A fetus' heartbeat will be detectable at 8 weeks gestation. IF someone does not believe that conception is the beginning of life then I hope that any reasonable human can agree that there must be some life happening here. For the same people who don't believe that life begins at conception I'm sure (yes I'm making an assumption) that you would be one of the first to line up to tell everyone that life was found on Mars, "it was just a one celled organism but life non-the-less!" And is an ameba not life? Furthermore, a child can survive outside of the mother at 20 weeks gestation and it is not uncommon to have 23-week gestation babies in the NICU. This cutoff is rapidly getting shorter and shorter as medical technology improves.
Our society has become desensitized to acts of violence. Killings everyday, abortions are legal and accepted as a form of birth control terrorist attacks. It is all related. We don't care enough about life to truly see what life is. Someone mentioned that Pro-Life and Pro-Choice will never solve the issue since they are arguing from two different viewpoints. Pro-Life is arguing for the child, Pro-Choice is arguing for the woman. It is the woman vs. the fetus! This is a problematic way to face the issue. We have to face the issue of the rights of the fetus along side the conditions of the woman to flourish as a contributing member of society.
<edit>Those who spend time with their children really need to be commended. My wife and I agreed that when we have children one of us would be home with them. I did not want to send them to daycare and have someone else raise our children, not even their grandparents. We have made many sacrifices (far less than some here) to make that happen. It's not easy. BUT the child benefits from the parental interaction far more than any toy you can give them.
Our society has become desensitized to acts of violence. Killings everyday, abortions are legal and accepted as a form of birth control terrorist attacks. It is all related. We don't care enough about life to truly see what life is. Someone mentioned that Pro-Life and Pro-Choice will never solve the issue since they are arguing from two different viewpoints. Pro-Life is arguing for the child, Pro-Choice is arguing for the woman. It is the woman vs. the fetus! This is a problematic way to face the issue. We have to face the issue of the rights of the fetus along side the conditions of the woman to flourish as a contributing member of society.
<edit>Those who spend time with their children really need to be commended. My wife and I agreed that when we have children one of us would be home with them. I did not want to send them to daycare and have someone else raise our children, not even their grandparents. We have made many sacrifices (far less than some here) to make that happen. It's not easy. BUT the child benefits from the parental interaction far more than any toy you can give them.
I whole-heartidly agree and I'm glad to "know" someone in this world who goes through great lengths for their children.
The comment I made earlier about "a piss-poor life" was directed towards those people who can't even take care of themselves, or who clearly have the parenting skill equivlent to television. My assumption (yes, I have nothing to back that up) is that lower-class people are more likely to get pregnant, no offense to anyone, but there are many people out there who don't have jobs, that don't know where their next meal is going to come from (I'm not talking homeless) who still think that it's a good idea to have unprotected sex, or even sex at all.
I've managed to abstain from sex so far in life (by choice, thank you.) and I really don't see what is so hard about it. The threat of having my world crashing down far outweighs screwing around with some girl. If that girl isn't willing to wait for me, then she doesn't love me. Of course that's a whole 'nother conversation in itself.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
Why do some of you feel that having an abortion somehow makes one irresponsible and that having a child is the responsible thing to do.
It seems to me that having the child when you don't want it or aren't ready is the irreponsible choice, while having an abortion is the responsible choice.
It seems to me that having the child when you don't want it or aren't ready is the irreponsible choice, while having an abortion is the responsible choice.
mcveigh
Diamond Member
- Dec 20, 2000
- 6,457
- 6
- 81
well , I just found out last night that my brother-in-law's girl friend was 6 weeks pregenant and had an abortion.
he wanted the child, wanted to stay with her, she decided to have an abortion. :| she has a boy 6yrs old from a previous relationship, so this shocked me. It's been a week since she did it, and now she is blaming him, saying he really didn't want it (he did) she depressed and even remaked that if not for her son she would have killed herself by now.
it's a really fuccked up situation. I could have been an uncle
he wanted the child, wanted to stay with her, she decided to have an abortion. :| she has a boy 6yrs old from a previous relationship, so this shocked me. It's been a week since she did it, and now she is blaming him, saying he really didn't want it (he did) she depressed and even remaked that if not for her son she would have killed herself by now.
it's a really fuccked up situation. I could have been an uncle
This would make you unusual by most accounts. There are certainly people who are eager to have children that have sex for that purpose (or conversely abstain for the opposite reason), but I think we can safetly say that sex for recreational puposes is far more common. Sex is just part of a fullfilling life (perhaps to satiate hormonal drives?).
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Why do some of you feel that having an abortion somehow makes one irresponsible and that having a child is the responsible thing to do.
It seems to me that having the child when you don't want it or aren't ready is the irreponsible choice, while having an abortion is the responsible choice.
the responsible choice should be made before sex, not after you find out theres a pregnancy and arent ready to deal with it. make that decision before the clothes come off. its irresponsible to have sex, if youre not ready/willing to deal with the outcome.
Originally posted by: mcveigh
well , I just found out last night that my brother-in-law's girl friend was 6 weeks pregenant and had an abortion.
he wanted the child, wanted to stay with her, she decided to have an abortion. :| she has a boy 6yrs old from a previous relationship, so this shocked me. It's been a week since she did it, and now she is blaming him, saying he really didn't want it (he did) she depressed and even remaked that if not for her son she would have killed herself by now.
it's a really fuccked up situation. I could have been an uncle
that sucks. she needs some professional help.
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Why do some of you feel that having an abortion somehow makes one irresponsible and that having a child is the responsible thing to do.
It seems to me that having the child when you don't want it or aren't ready is the irreponsible choice, while having an abortion is the responsible choice.
Responsible people don't have unprotected sex if they are not ready and willing to take care of the child. Abortion is not birth control. Its amazing how you can just ignore that fact.
I don't feel the least bit sorry for you. If you didn't want your child, and you didn't know the person you were messing around with well enough to know that she would keep the child, and you still chose to have unprotected sex with her, then you should grow some balls and stop blaming everyone else for your problems. You had a choice before, and you decided that birth control was too much of an inconvenience for you. Now the child is an inconvenience for you. Cry me a freaking river.
It doesn't surprise me that you are irresponsible, what surprises me is that you are totally oblivious to that fact. You don't see how starting a life and then ending it before it gets a chance to meet its potential just because allowing that to happen would be inconvenient for you is even remotely irresponsible? You don't see how even putting a woman in a position where she would have to consider having an abortion for your convenience is irresponsible?
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 411
Facebook
Twitter