Pro-Choice or Pro-Life (to kill or not to kill?, should that be the question, is that the question?

[jobert]

>>it sure is. until that organism doesnt depend on the host to survive, it becomes part of the body. the organism needs the host to live.<<

No it doesn't. Many young premature babies
are born every day, completely dependent on
life support to survive. That doesn't make them
part of the bassinette in which they live.

 

[ratkil]

veryape would you care if I terminated the life of my 5 year old? I am not trying to be confrontation here, but I really want to know what the difference is?

 

[loosbrew]

life support isnt sustaining life in any natural sense. think about it, if that child were taken away from all of the machines, and medicine, would it live on its own? would the mother be able to care for such an premature baby? we're talking the basic elements here. of course it will live on life support....hell they can grow these things in test tubes now.


loosbrew


edit
fixed spelling errors

 

[ratkil]

&quot;hell they can grow these things in test tubes now.&quot;
So what you are saying is that it is a viable life right from the get go, so terminating it is ending a babies life..........

 

[loosbrew]

<< So what you are saying is that it is a viable life right from the get go, so terminating it is ending a babies life.......... >>




i never denied that abortion was ending a life.

loosbrew

 

[ratkil]

I'm sorry, I missed a couple posts of yours, my mistake

 

[loosbrew]

No problem

loosbrew

 

[Zucchini]

by the way... abortion isn'tsometihng thats rare in nature. The amount of natural abortions (miscarriages) is pretty high, in fact some women don't even notice, just think its part of their period. I guess god supports abortion of sorts

 

[Moonbeam]

Ornery, do those innalienable rights extend to the child of rape or incest. I would say they do. The problem with inflexible absolutes is that they create logical conundrums that are irresolvable. What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object. You have a situation where only 50 of the population are by chance required to go to term with something they may not want to. Why does the other 50%, who never have to face this issue directly, and who definitely make the most noise about it, have any business in this issue. Why can't this be a personal decission only of the people directly affected. The temptation is to see the fetus in it's future potential as a conscious human being. From another point of view it is no more conscious or signifigant than a tumor. What is so different about a sperm and egg after combination than before except in our imaginations or as a result of a religious doctrine. Abortion is murder. Abortion has to be a right granted to women who choose it. Abortion must therefore be an exceptable form of murder. Inalieble, for pragmatic social reasons must apply only to conscious humans.

There is much more going on in the abortion issue that what is argued on the surface. Why, for example, with all the male, especially and fundamentalist male interest in abortion, is not just what I suggest happening. Why are there no crash scientific programs to allow men to impragnent themselves and save all those unwanted fetuses. If men had children there is no doubt in my mind that anybody who thought that abortion should be illegal would be seen as criminal. I can just see the fanatics here staying home for the next 18 years. Or how about pro life wives lining up for fetal transplant. In the pro life stance one sees a sickning punitiveness. They got pregnant, they can just take responsibility for their actions. No no, you thak responsibility. You want the THE BABY to be born, get involved in a crash program to bring it to term yourself. Fact is you're not interested, because the issue really isn't about the sanctity of life; it's about control, making others conform to what satisfies your imagination.

Every time you pluck your eyebrow or bleed billions of clonable cells, potential humans you care nothing about, are murdered. The difference is all in what you imagine it to be.

I am pro life. I will not get an abortion. I will not cause a pregnancy that is unwanted. If your interest extends beyond mine invest in ways to personally grow the fetus yourself.

 

[radiocore]

Pro-Choice

 

[loosbrew]

bravo moonbeam!

i applaud your honest and very thorough opinions on this.

loosbrew

edit
dammit, i always spell thorough wrong!

 

[Isla]

Moonbeam,

Well said.

My ideas about reducing the need revolve around this sentiment:



<< I will not cause a pregnancy that is unwanted >>



As long as we have male honored institutions that involved getting young women drunk (Ladies, drink for FREE!) and then 'getting some' from a woman/girl who is not in the state of mind to act rationally, we will have unwanted pregnancies. As long as we have the whole idea of females as sex objects and men going on what is known as a pussy hunt (sound familiar to anyone?) regardless of the age (teen?), maturity level, emotional stability of the female, etc, we will have these problems.

What I am trying to do is teach teens (at least the ones I come in contact with) to avoid these traps that are so easy for girls with low self-esteem (and even average self esteem) to fall into. I hope one day to have the ability to reach a wider audience. I'm not preaching religion... it is respect and responsibility that I think are the keys.

Be responsible, respect each other, and reduce the need!

 

[FettsBabe]

<< From another point of view it is no more conscious or signifigant than a tumor. >>



Thats a BS tactic. A baby, at conception does have significance and conscious. Just because its not in your form doesn't mean that its not there. A mentally challenged individual isn't on your IQ level either, so I guess its ok to extinguish them too.

Pro-choicers are you saying that if a person shot a pregnant woman and it killed the baby that the shooter should not be charged with murder?

I don't understand your logical theories because I view them as an easy way out. A mother DOES NOT have the RIGHT to kill a baby living inside her, and neither does anyone else. If you don't want to have the baby then you need to keep your legs closed and your extension in your pants. You take responsibility to raise the child when you initiate the act of sex.

Quite frankly, I tired of all the murderer mothers running around saying I'm gonna have an abortion because my husband and I want to take travel in five years and we don't have time to raise a child. BS. Tell that to God when you cross over and have to face him and all your sins. Murder is a huge sin.

BTW, if a mother doesn't want the baby, and the father says he will raise it then why can't the father make the mother carry the child? Don't tell me the &quot;its her body excuse&quot; because I think your point was...why doesn't someone else take it? Some fathers would but the mothers are to stupid and self centered to let them!!!!!!! :|

Whether you believe in God or not, you should believe in the right to life, and if you don't then I'll smile at you when the laws are changed and abortion is illegal. Because it will happen...its just a matter of time.

Nuff Said.

 

[Thorn]

Pro-Choice for the first trimester, Pro-Life thereafter.

3 months is plenty of time for someone to make up their mind about whether they want to have a baby or not. After that, the fetus is starting to develop higher brain function and is capable of experiencing the full agony of it's own death. I'd say there's nothing like being ripped out of your home, sucked down a hose into a trash bag, and suffocating (that is if they don't chop you into small pieces first).

Also, I believe (if the woman is married) that her husband should be notified that she wants an abortion... this isn't to say that the father can have the abortion stopped, just that he should be made aware that his wife is killing their kid (or &quot;kid-to-be&quot; if that's your POV).


<< How about this one. If the baby was born naturally right now would it be developed enough to survive. >>


And a newborn baby isn't capable of surviving on it's own either... so I guess it's ok to kill those too. I suppose until a person is 16 or so and able to get a job, feed and clothe themselves, and generally be self-sufficient that their mother can legally kill them at any time. Sounds fair to me. :disgust:

 

[FettsBabe]

Some women trap men by getting pregnant. I understand the need to control unwanted pregancy, but do you realize how many woman are going on &quot;who's gonna be my babies daddy&quot; hunts? Lots of them. There are thirteen year old girls running around sleeping with whomever just to get knocked up. They know better but its what they want.

Women are not sex objects. They are what they allow themselves to be. Women should know that if they drink to much that their judgement becomes impaired. We don't need common sense stupidity rules to protect the girls and boys.

Once again, women are not victims.

 

[Elledan]

<<Whether you believe in God or not, you should believe in the right to life, and if you don't then I'll smile at you
when the laws are changed and abortion is illegal. Because it will happen...its just a matter of time.>>

Wrong.

Abortion will never be made illegal. It's just one of the many things which will never happen, because if it would be prohibited, it would continue anyway, pregnant females would still get an abortion in some obscure clinic, without the care and safety which would have been provided if abortion would have been legal.

> Mating should be regulated
> Rapists should be send to labour camps if they perform a rape twice or more times
> We need abortion until we can control the mating rituals of the Human species

If you've any rational arguments against those statements, please give them. If you only want to insult people and call them 'dumb', 'sick' or anything else which has no relevance whatsoever, please go outside and go cool down in the rain/snow.

 

[FettsBabe]

The laws will be changed...eventually. Thats my opinion.

Mating should not be regulated. China is an excellent example of why it shouldn't be. The Chinese Gov. has no respect for life.

Rapists - I agree that they shouldn't be released into the public.



<< BTW, if a mother doesn't want the baby, and the father says he will raise it then why can't the father make the mother carry the child? Don't tell me the &quot;its her body excuse&quot; because I think your point was...why doesn't someone else take it? Some fathers would but the mothers are to stupid and self centered to let them!!!!!!! >>



Why aren't fathers allowed to take those babies and raise them. Who are you to tell a father that he can't raise HIS child??????? Mothers who don't let the fathers take them (barring any death probabilities to the mother) are stupid. I'm sorry, but they are. That seems harsh but its true.

 

[Isla]

FettsBabe,

There are thirteen year old girls running around sleeping with whomever just to get knocked up. They know better but its what they want.

I don't believe 13 year old girls can be held responsible for such things. Having one myself, I realize she is still a child. It is not an age of accountability.

Society and the images it promotes do have an effect on us. That is what sociologists study. Some are able to resist it more than others, but there is such a thing as learning to accept things because society accepts it.

We are desensitized to violence, and we are desensitized to sexuality.

Here is an example.

In a Papua, New Guinea tribe, the boys come to 'manhood' by performing fellatio on the male adults of the tribe. The semen is believed to be the nutrient that makes them into men. Horrifying? To you and me, yes. To them, it is just as natural as breathing.

I never said women were victims. We are all in part what our society has raised us to be. We play our roles as taught to us from the cradle.

Again, in case you didn't get it:

Teach respect and responsiblity and you will reduce the need. Teach this to both boys and girls and eventually, abortion will become a rarer and rarer thing.

Pretend there is no problem outside of the hoochie mommas that spread their legs and the first place and stick your head in the sand.

 

[Ornery]

veryape, it's not religious, it's about civil rights of the baby. If you can't understand someone coming to the defense of a helpless baby, then why would you expect the government to come to anyone's defense. It's just the law of the jungle at that point.

Moonbeam, you may as well be a pre Civil War Southern plantation owner arguing that only Northerners that don't depend on slaves for their livelihood are against slavery. No difference.

It really is simple. Those babies have the same rights as you or I. The mother's rights don't supersede them before or after birth. If she was raped, became pregnant and the baby was born, should she be allowed to kill it? Why not? See? Simple!

 

[FettsBabe]

<< Society and the images it promotes do have an effect on us. That is what sociologists study. Some are able to resist it more than others, but there is such a thing as learning to accept things because society accepts it. >>



Society has nothing to do with what YOU or I accept. We choose our own destiny. If there is something wrong in society we will not learn to accept it. Apparently you don't accept the idea of the &quot;ladies nights&quot; or &quot;free beer to the ladies&quot; nights. You didn't learn to accept it because you think its wrong. Thats great too because it shows you are not a victim. We, as a nation, need to teach people that we are not victims and that we choose what we want to believe in. In teaching that, we can't allow people to fall through loop holes or find the easy way out. Sometimes the hardest thing a person or child has to do is to accept the consequences of their actions whether it be probation, jail time, or an unexpected child birth. Personally, I don't feel that me, you or any other AT member should have to pay for a child's abortion. I'm glad our nation stopped sending funds to those that do support it.

Also, you can believe that women are victims all you want but you are only allowing this trend to continue. You know Jesse Jackson preaches that Black people are victims. The black race hasn't came this far (equal rights, etc) by thinking that they are victims or telling their children that they are. They taught them to stand in what they believe in and push for laws to change. Victims? I think not.

 

[jobert]

>>Every time you pluck your eyebrow or bleed billions of clonable cells, potential humans you care nothing about, are murdered. The difference is all in what you imagine it to be.<<

Obviously you have never seen pictures of,
or felt the movements of, an unborn child.

He's not imaginary.
He's real.

He's not potential.
He's real.

He's not a clonable cell.
He's a little, helpless person.

 

[Thorn]

<< > Mating should be regulated >>


By whom? The Government? LMAOPIMP!!! They're some of the worst offenders. We need to make people responsible for their actions, then they'll make their own decisions with a clearer point of view. Experience is the harshest schoolmaster.


<< > Rapists should be send to labour camps if they perform a rape twice or more times >>


I think they should be castrated or killed, their choice.


<< > We need abortion until we can control the mating rituals of the Human species >>


We need to let people make their own decisions (and mistakes) that way they'll learn from them.

That's right, I'm cold and heartless. And I want to see mankind become more than just a user society.

I had to learn from my mistakes, and no one baled me out. It made me appreciate life more and to realize that I can take control of my own life.

 

[FettsBabe]

Thorn/Jobert - Way to go.

 

[TAsunder]

I am neither A-Pro Life nor B-Pro Choice but rather C-Pro Death.

The universe operates best when there is perfect balance in it. Right now there are uncountable idiotic lifeforms running around in it, and not enough of them are dying quickly enough. Therefore we need to instantiate death's cold hand to make sure the world has balance. Furthermore, we need a lot less HAPPY people in this world, because that way half of the existing sad people in this world would turn happy to fill up the universal balance.

Until I have calculated the exact mathematical formulas and statistics on who needs to live and die, though, I will just say that I am Pro Death. If I had to choose one way or the other out of A or B and not C, I suppose it would be pro choice, not because I like death, but because of subjective, illogical, human brain conditions known as opinions. Anyone who thinks they have chosen based on anything else probably is a good candidate for my right to exercise option C.

 

[Isla]

Heh, I love the way people automatically assume that I am pro-choice because I am not pro-life.

It seems to me that it is a problem that won't be fixed very well either way.

My reasoning is that there is a market for irresponsible sexual behavior and a side effect of that is unwanted pregnancies.

To be Pro-Life and not see that it is a much bigger problem than 'some of us are more morally superior than others' is to be naive.

To be Pro-Choice and think that abortion is ok is just as naive.

Nothing exists in a vaccuum. No bad abortion puns, please!