Private Companies Cannot Refuse Service

[fskimospy]

I have no fucking idea and it's a dumb question. The constitution doesn't require proof from a bible but does cover religious freedoms. Do you think all religious beliefs are in the bible rule book and all have the same interpretation? In fact, I don't even agree with not serving a gay couple but that really doesn't matter because it's their religious conviction. It's not my religious beliefs being trumped. It's their belief it's their business....period. Find another bakery.

The PC in this country is beyond hope and is slowly going to be our demise.

You have no constitutional right to deny people the services of your business based on your religion. Similarly, if your religion said that interracial couples shouldn't marry you can't deny them either.

You open a business that serves the public? Serve the public and obey the law.

 

[nehalem256]

1. Burning any yeast or honey in offerings to God (2:11)
2. Failing to include salt in offerings to God (2:13)
3. Eating fat (3:17)
4. Eating blood (3:17)
5. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve witnessed (5:1)
6. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1)
7. Touching an unclean animal (5:2)
8. Carelessly making an oath (5:4)
9. Deceiving a neighbour about something trusted to them (6:2)
10. Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3)
11. Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1)
12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)
13. Tearing your clothes (10:6)
14. Drinking alcohol in holy places (bit of a problem for Catholics, this ‘un) (10:9)
15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)
16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8)
17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)
18. Eating – or touching the carcass of - eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19)
19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)
20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27)
21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29)
22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42)
23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)
24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)
25. Having sex with your mother (18:7)
26. Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8)
27. Having sex with your sister (18:9)
28. Having sex with your granddaughter (18:10)
29. Having sex with your half-sister (18:11)
30. Having sex with your biological aunt (18:12-13)
31. Having sex with your uncle’s wife (18:14)
32. Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15)
33. Having sex with your sister-in-law (18:16)
34. Having sex with a woman and also having sex with her daughter or granddaughter (bad news for Alan Clark) (18:17)
35. Marrying your wife’s sister while your wife still lives (18:18)
36. Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19)
37. Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20)
38. Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21)
39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22)
40. Having sex with an animal (18:23)
41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4)
42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)
43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)
44. Stealing (19:11)
45. Lying (19:11)
46. Swearing falsely on God’s name (19:12)
47. Defrauding your neighbour (19:13)
48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (not well observed these days) (19:13)
49. Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14)
50. Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15)
51. Spreading slander (19:16)
52. Doing anything to endanger a neighbour’s life (19:16)
53. Seeking revenge or bearing a grudge (19:18)
54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19)
56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)
57. Sleeping with another man’s slave (19:20)
58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)
59. Practising divination or seeking omens (tut, tut astrology) (19:26)
60. Trimming your beard (19:27)
61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)
62. Getting tattoos (19:28)
63. Making your daughter prostitute herself (19:29)
64. Turning to mediums or spiritualists (19:31)
65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32)
66. Mistreating foreigners – “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34)
67. Using dishonest weights and scales (19:35-36)
68. Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)
69. Marrying a prostitute, divorcee or widow if you are a priest (21:7,13)
70. Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11)
71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28)
72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3)
73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14)
74. Inflicting an injury; killing someone else’s animal; killing a person must be punished in kind (24:17-22)
75. Selling land permanently (25:23)
76. Selling an Israelite as a slave (foreigners are fine) (25:42)

So which of those things is the baker baking cakes to celebrate?

 

[nehalem256]

You have no constitutional right to deny people the services of your business based on your religion.

So you don't believe in freedom of association? Funny, I seem to remember you supporting businesses firing people for holding political beliefs they disliked.

Hypocritespy strikes again!

Similarly, if your religion said that interracial couples shouldn't marry you can't deny them either.

That is actually the exact opposite of what is happening here. Its more like if a baker only provided wedding cakes for interracial weddings.

 

[fskimospy]

So you don't believe in freedom of association? Funny, I seem to remember you supporting businesses firing people for holding political beliefs they disliked.

Hypocritespy strikes again!

That is actually the exact opposite of what is happening here. Its more like if a baker only provided wedding cakes for interracial weddings.

For about the twentieth time, it is moral and right to discriminate against someone based on their conduct, not based on their inherent characteristics. You have been told this over and over again, yet you either have severe reading comprehension problems or are willfully ignoring it.

Now, as part of your script you will argue that gay weddings are conduct.

Then I'll point you to court decisions that say that discriminating against conduct so closely tied to an inherent characteristic is no different than discriminating against that characteristic.

Then you will start flailing on wild tangents.

Let's just skip all that and I'll call you a moron now and be done with it.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's bizarre that people will get so worked up about who other people are allowed to marry.

 

[frowertr]

It's bizarre that people will get so worked up about who other people are allowed to marry.

What may not be a big deal to you may be a big deal to others. It just so happens that in this day and age the minority is allowed to rule the majority.

 

[WelshBloke]

What may not be a big deal to you may be a big deal to others. It just so happens that in this day and age the minority is allowed to rule the majority.

Is someone forcing you to marry a guy?

 

[Brainonska511]

Suppose we allowed this kind of discrimination (the kind where you can refuse service to a gay couple). What would the couple's remedy be? Find another bakery? What if the local market didn't support a large number of establishments? What if the few others that existed also had a policy if discrimination? What if it wasn't just a bakery discriminating?

I find the baker's excuse rather lacking. He's just making a cake. He doesn't have to attend the wedding or care/agree/etc what people are celebrating with the cake he is commissioned to make.

 

[frowertr]

Is someone forcing you to marry a guy?

Have you not been paying attention to the point of this thread? No one is forcing anyone to marry anyone. What our Kangaroo courts are doing is forcing us into "rehabilitation" if we don't toe the line according to their beliefs...

 

[WelshBloke]

Have you not been paying attention to the point of this thread? No one is forcing anyone to marry anyone. What our Kangaroo courts are doing is forcing us into "rehabilitation" if we don't toe the line according to their beliefs...

I was commenting on your "what may not be a big thing..." comment.

I just don't see why anyone would get so worked up about who someone they don't know would marry.

 

[waggy]

meh. i think the cake maker should have the right to say no if its against his beliefs. no matter how fucking stupid it is.

But as a business owner i don't get shutting down a client over something so idiotic. make the cake and move on.

 

[nehalem256]

For about the twentieth time, it is moral and right to discriminate against someone based on their conduct, not based on their inherent characteristics. You have been told this over and over again, yet you either have severe reading comprehension problems or are willfully ignoring it.

Now, as part of your script you will argue that gay weddings are conduct.

Then I'll point you to court decisions that say that discriminating against conduct so closely tied to an inherent characteristic is no different than discriminating against that characteristic.

Buying same-sex wedding cakes is tied to sexual orientation?

I didn't realize that straight people couldn't buy same-sex wedding cakes for their gay friends/siblings/children/parents/etc.

 

[nehalem256]

Have you not been paying attention to the point of this thread? No one is forcing anyone to marry anyone. What our Kangaroo courts are doing is forcing us into "rehabilitation" if we don't toe the line according to their beliefs...

People with counter-revolutionary ideas should be sent to re-education camps eh comrade

 

[nehalem256]

I was commenting on your "what may not be a big thing..." comment.

I just don't see why anyone would get so worked up about who someone they don't know would marry.

Well apparently some people get worked up that someone they don't know won't approve of their marriage :whiste:

 

[frowertr]

People with counter-revolutionary ideas should be sent to re-education camps eh comrade

So his belief of refusing service to those he doesn't care to serve is counter revolutionary? You lost me champ...

The "re-education camp" is exactly what the court is ordering the baker to go to. He must be "rehabilitated". Have you not even read the article??

 

[WelshBloke]

So his belief of refusing service to those he doesn't care to serve is counter revolutionary? You lost me champ...

The "re-education camp" is exactly what the court is ordering the baker to go to. He must be "rehabilitated". Have you not even read the article??

Sounds like they are just making sure that he keeps his employees educated on the laws relevant to their business.

Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, in Lakewood, Colorado was directed to change his store policies immediately and force his staff to attend the training sessions. For the next two years, Phillips will also be required to submit quarterly reports to the commission to confirm that he has not turned away customers based on their sexual orientation.

 

[nehalem256]

So his belief of refusing service to those he doesn't care to serve is counter revolutionary? You lost me champ...

His lack of support for same-sex marriage is counter-revolutionary

The "re-education camp" is exactly what the court is ordering the baker to go to. He must be "rehabilitated". Have you not even read the article??

Exactly. He must be re-educated into proper revolutionary thinking. Too bad Russia didn't sell part of Siberia along with Alaska or he could just be sent there :\

 

[spacejamz]

meh. i think the cake maker should have the right to say no if its against his beliefs. no matter how fucking stupid it is.

But as a business owner i don't get shutting down a client over something so idiotic. make the cake and move on.

On the other end of the spectrum, why would a client want to support a business whose values oppose theirs? So much for voting with your wallet....

 

[alzan]

What may not be a big deal to you may be a big deal to others. It just so happens that in this day and age the minority is allowed to rule the majority.

The Supreme Court has ruled in similar cases that the minority have rights that can supersede those of the majority.

If you operate a public accommodation business you have to serve the public.

 

[WelshBloke]

On the other end of the spectrum, why would a client want to support a business whose values oppose theirs? So much for voting with your wallet....

When I go shopping I just want to buy stuff, I don't want to interview the seller to see if his ideology is in line with mine and I don't want to have to justify my lifestyle to him.

 

[spacejamz]

When I go shopping I just want to buy stuff, I don't want to interview the seller to see if his ideology is in line with mine and I don't want to have to justify my lifestyle to him.

It is pretty well known now where this baker stands....why would someone who wanted a same sex wedding cake give this guy their business now since he is 'forced' into making them?

 

[WelshBloke]

It is pretty well known now where this baker stands....why would someone who wanted a same sex wedding cake give this guy their business now since he is 'forced' into making them?

Well its not an issue now as the guy is so boneheaded and stubborn that he's decided to not make wedding cakes for anyone now.


Also it's wierd that a "same sex wedding cake" is a thing now. It's just a wedding cake.

 

[SMOGZINN]

actually not what it's called at all professor. his business increased by 75% thru support for his religious convictions.

This is the exact reason we need these laws, otherwise the majority just crushes the minority and we end up driving anyone different out.

Someone please explain how his religious freedoms aren't being shat on....

Religious freedom is limited. You can't use religious freedom to ignore the law. Most laws limit religious freedom in some way.

Buying same-sex wedding cakes is tied to sexual orientation?

Yes, of course it is. It is actually in the wording.

I didn't realize that straight people couldn't buy same-sex wedding cakes for their gay friends/siblings/children/parents/etc.

Just because there is a third party does not change the fact that refusing to make it is discriminating against someone due to their sexual orientation.

 

[Vic]

I have no fucking idea and it's a dumb question. The constitution doesn't require proof from a bible but does cover religious freedoms. Do you think all religious beliefs are in the bible rule book and all have the same interpretation? In fact, I don't even agree with not serving a gay couple but that really doesn't matter because it's their religious conviction. It's not my religious beliefs being trumped. It's their belief it's their business....period. Find another bakery.

The PC in this country is beyond hope and is slowly going to be our demise.

If the argument is that they can't serve gays because it's against their religious beliefs, then there should be a legitimate basis for that belief within their religion.

As for the rights of a business, I agree with you in principle but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in practice. Laws prohibiting businesses from engaging in discriminatory practices exist because such practices have been found to be harmful. For example, what if there is no other bakery in the area?

 

[nehalem256]

Yes, of course it is. It is actually in the wording.

A straight person can purchase a same-sex wedding cake for a wedding of 2 gay people.

Two straight men can get married. And as marriage is just a contract according to same-sex marriage supporters there is no consistent reason why they wouldn't.

Just because there is a third party does not change the fact that refusing to make it is discriminating against someone due to their sexual orientation.

But they are not refusing service based on the sexual orientation of their client.