Private Companies Cannot Refuse Service

[WelshBloke]

Well that's a pretty dangerous path to go down....

You say that like it's a new thing. The law has always trumped religion.

Otherwise there would be a lot more Rastas around.

 

[fskimospy]

You do have a right to live by your religious convictions....do you not? Explain to me how supporting a gay marriage, let's say by being forced to bake a cake for that wedding, for someone who is religiously opposed to the concept isn't stomping on that persons rights.

Because you don't have a right to operate a business outside of the law.

Nobody is making that person participate in the wedding, it is simply that if you operate a business open to the public you have to be... Open to the public. There's not "we don't serve your kind here" allowed.

 

[Blackjack200]

You do have a right to live by your religious convictions....do you not?

No, you don't. You're free to believe what you want and live by your convictions within the bounds of the law. Jesus Christ, how fucking stupid are you?

No different from all the churches that wanted to violate the health care law WRT birth control. Unfortunately I think the administration caved on that one, but same stupid argument.

 

[Angry Irishman]

No, you don't. You're free to believe what you want and live by your convictions within the bounds of the law. Jesus Christ, how fucking stupid are you?

No different from all the churches that wanted to violate the health care law WRT birth control. Unfortunately I think the administration caved on that one, but same stupid argument.

And that's not religious persecution? I'm not even religious but that sure is a black and white stance to take. I can see by your insulting response that given your maturity level you could not begin to understand that someone's convictions may not agree with the law. The health care example you just gave is even more of a tromping of someone's religious freedom and belief.

"My religious convictions do not condone abortion" your response.....fuck you hand out the pill....it's the law. ....and freedom and justice for all

 

[Cozarkian]

There's not "we don't serve your kind here" allowed.

That isn't what happened here. He was willing to sell the gay customers any product in the store, including a wedding cake, on condition it wasn't used for a same-sex wedding. He is also willing to sell any non-gay customer any product in the store, on condition it isn't used for a same-sex wedding.

The discrimination here is based on the intended use of the product, not the genetics of the customer. That is an important difference that makes the necessary balancing of rights much more difficult.

 

[WelshBloke]

And that's not religious persecution? I'm not even religious but that sure is a black and white stance to take. I can see by your insulting response that given your maturity level you could not begin to understand that someone's convictions may not agree with the law. The health care example you just gave is even more of a tromping of someone's religious freedom and belief.

"My religious convictions do not condone abortion" your response.....fuck you hand out the pill....it's the law. ....and freedom and justice for all

The problem is when you tie that argument with the one that you made earlier.

I have no fucking idea and it's a dumb question. The constitution doesn't require proof from a bible but does cover religious freedoms. Do you think all religious beliefs are in the bible rule book and all have the same interpretation? In fact, I don't even agree with not serving a gay couple but that really doesn't matter because it's their religious conviction. It's not my religious beliefs being trumped. It's their belief it's their business....period. Find another bakery.

The PC in this country is beyond hope and is slowly going to be our demise.

You end up in a situation where anyone can say that something is your religious beliefs and that you don't want to follow the law.


Edit: I agree with you about the unnecessary insults though, there's no need for that and it just makes the other poster look bad in this case.

 

[fskimospy]

That isn't what happened here. He was willing to sell the gay customers any product in the store, including a wedding cake, on condition it wasn't used for a same-sex wedding. He is also willing to sell any non-gay customer any product in the store, on condition it isn't used for a same-sex wedding.

The discrimination here is based on the intended use of the product, not the genetics of the customer. That is an important difference that makes the necessary balancing of rights much more difficult.

That's pretty much explicitly a "we don't serve your kind here" type of thing. They are explicitly refusing to service gay couples if they are getting married and they are doing so purely on the basis of their sexual orientation.

 

[shortylickens]

Some would argue it's simply old, intolerant people falling off the gene pool and being replaced by far more tolerant generations. Boomers gonna all die off eventually, when they are gone, so, too, will be much of the bigotry and racism that's still alive and well in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4NyDsJEoqo

Bullshit.

I meet plenty of racist young people on a regular basis in Virginia.

And have you ever seen 4chan?

HOLY FUCK STICKS!
Racism is alive and well. Its just that young people who rant on the internet wont be hiring in the work force, they will be on the bottom.

 

[SlowSpyder]

The bible says slavery is a-ok. If I try and open up a store front for slave trade, SlowSpyder's Slave Depot, and I get shut down, are my religious rights as a christian being trampled?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

 

[nehalem256]

That's pretty much explicitly a "we don't serve your kind here" type of thing. They are explicitly refusing to service gay couples if they are getting married and they are doing so purely on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Wrong. If 2 straight frat brothers decide to get same-sex married he wouldn't bake them a cake either for their wedding.

 

[nehalem256]

The bible says slavery is a-ok. If I try and open up a store front for slave trade, SlowSpyder's Slave Depot, and I get shut down, are my religious rights as a christian being trampled?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Just because you CAN do something. Doesn't mean you are REQUIRED to do something.

 

[fskimospy]

Wrong. If 2 straight frat brothers decide to get same-sex married he wouldn't bake them a cake either for their wedding.

The courts have already addressed this stupid distinction as well. I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

 

[nehalem256]

The courts have already addressed this stupid distinction as well. I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

What does what the courts say have to do with your statement?

They are explicitly refusing to service gay couples if they are getting married and they are doing so purely on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Seems to me like you don't find the courts arguments very convincing which is why you have to try and blatantly lie about what the baker is doing.

 

[fskimospy]

What does what the courts say have to do with your statement?

Seems to me like you don't find the courts arguments very convincing which is why you have to try and blatantly lie about what the baker is doing.

Nope, they are perfectly convincing and I am accurately describing the situation. Due to some combination of mental illness and homophobia you are deeply invested in making arguments so stupid that a 5th grader would dismiss them.

 

[nehalem256]

Nope, they are perfectly convincing and I am accurately describing the situation. Due to some combination of mental illness and homophobia you are deeply invested in making arguments so stupid that a 5th grader would dismiss them.

You are inaccurately describing the situation because if 2 straight guys wanted a same-sex wedding cake they would likewise be declined.

 

[fskimospy]

You are inaccurately describing the situation because if 2 straight guys wanted a same-sex wedding cake they would likewise be declined.

Discrimination against activities closely associated with in inherent attributes of people is the same as discriminating based in that attribute. End of story.

I'm sorry if you don't like the law but simply mindlessly repeating the same inane arguments won't change it.

 

[nehalem256]

Discrimination against activities closely associated with in inherent attributes of people is the same as discriminating based in that attribute. End of story.

Which is a totally different claim then you were making earlier.

They are explicitly refusing to service gay couples if they are getting married and they are doing so purely on the basis of their sexual orientation.

I'm sorry if you don't like the law but simply mindlessly repeating the same inane arguments won't change it.

We aren't discussing the law we are talking about your blatantly inaccurate comment.

 

[alzan]

And that's not religious persecution? I'm not even religious but that sure is a black and white stance to take. I can see by your insulting response that given your maturity level you could not begin to understand that someone's convictions may not agree with the law. The health care example you just gave is even more of a tromping of someone's religious freedom and belief.

"My religious convictions do not condone abortion" your response.....fuck you hand out the pill....it's the law. ....and freedom and justice for all

The cake shop owner agreed to abide by the laws governing public accommodation businesses when he opened up shop, then broke those laws when he refused service to a member of the public. His religious convictions don't allow him to break the law.

Case closed.

 

[justoh]

Why do people supporting this law not value freedom? I thought you guys live in merica, not the uk. So what if they broke the law. That law is stupid. Shouldn't stupid laws be tested? Most people routinely break laws that actually make sense, but refusing to bake cakes is going too far?

 

[fskimospy]

Why do people supporting this law not value freedom? I thought you guys live in merica, not the uk. So what if they broke the law. That law is stupid. Shouldn't stupid laws be tested? Most people routinely break laws that actually make sense, but refusing to bake cakes is going too far?

Open accommodation laws make perfect sense, unless you think we should go back to the system where black people were systematically refused service all over town.

 

[fskimospy]

Which is a totally different claim then you were making earlier.

We aren't discussing the law we are talking about your blatantly inaccurate comment.

No, we are discussing my obviously correct statement, as reflected by court judgments.

 

[nehalem256]

Open accommodation laws make perfect sense, unless you think we should go back to the system where black people were systematically refused service all over town.

Which is a gross exaggeration of what is going on in this case.

It would be more like refusing to provide cookies for an NAACP meeting.

 

[fskimospy]

Which is a gross exaggeration of what is going on in this case.

It would be more like refusing to provide cookies for an NAACP meeting.

No, it's exactly what's going on in this case. Someone is being refused service due to their inherent characteristics, as verified by the courts. It couldn't be simpler.

 

[justoh]

Open accommodation laws make perfect sense, unless you think we should go back to the system where black people were systematically refused service all over town.

Well, if that's who you guys are, then yes, though I think you might be overstating how much of a problem that could be. I've already addressed the essential services concern in a previous post.

The freedom of a private business owner to refuse service to someone, for any reason, is more important than the stupid hurt feelings of a gay, black or any other person. It's stupid to feel bad about someone's irrational hatred towards you. Laugh at them and find another cake shop.

Forcing them to serve gays does nothing to solve the problem of bigotry, as long as they still don't want to. Isn't that the problem? 73% of you lot identify as christians, for example. Maybe work on education, and then you won't need these idiotic laws, which can only strengthen their faith and resolve.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, if that's who you guys are, then yes, though I think you might be overstating how much of a problem that could be. I've already addressed the essential services concern in a previous post.

You realize that these laws came about precisely because there was mass discrimination against minorities that was seriously impacting people's lives, right?

The freedom of a private business owner to refuse service to someone, for any reason, is more important than the stupid hurt feelings of a gay, black or any other person. It's stupid to feel bad about someone's irrational hatred towards you. Laugh at them and find another cake shop.

The freedom of a business owner to refuse service isn't more important than making sure that every citizen is protected from that kind of mass discrimination.

Forcing them to serve gays does nothing to solve the problem of bigotry, as long as they still don't want to. Isn't that the problem? 73% of you lot identify as christians, for example. Maybe work on education, and then you won't need these idiotic laws, which can only strengthen their faith and resolve, since now they feel like "their beliefs aren't respected."

The laws aren't intended to solve the problem of bigotry.