Possibly the most important science breakthrough happened today (not really)

[adlep]

Cliffs: company that worked with Rossi and was going to invest a bazillion dollars in Rossi's company backed out, because they too have figured out how to break the laws of physics as known. They too have magic boxes that they won't demonstrate in front of anyone credible, nor will let someone credible examine the devices, nor have published anything in any peer reviewed journal, nor have filed for any patents,etc.

In other words, some Greek guys figured out that Rossi doesn't have a monopoly on being a scammer.

Sure, but that's just part of the article.

 

[adlep]

Recently some detailed questions have been asked on Rossi’s site, and he has provided some answers:


1. Can the e-cat replace my existing boiler and will I require two e-cats? the 2 E-Cats will be applied to your heater, which will be a back up
2. Is the home e-cat designed to operate on an ‘on demand’ basis? I read that it had a long start up time so I’m not sure. It can work on demand, using a by pass. The E-Cat will work at lower energy, ready to give max power on demand.
3. Will the e-cat need to be on and operating non stop, i.e. 24 hours per day for my scenario above? it will be alweays on, but you will regulate it on demand
4. Can the output be varied in accordance with the heat required? Yes
5. If yes to the above question, will the electricity consumption reduce too with the reduction in heat output? Yes
6. If yes to above then by how much will the electricity consumption reduce? What is the minimum consumption? The minimum is zero, the max is 2.7, the average is 1.2
7. Is the 1.67kW electricity consumption an average consumption taking into account the 2.8kW start up consumption and the self-sustain periods? Yes
8. If yes to the above question then for 24 hours continuous operation it will use 40kW (1.67kW*24) of electricity? less, it will be 1,2 x 24, if you use it 24 hours

Second set of questions:

1) Could the E-Cat itself (not it’s control devices) be damaged if the starting procedure was abruptly interrupted? No
2) Giving immediately back power, would mean restarting from the beginning or you will save the time spent before interruption? depends from the time elapsed between the two phases: if it is up to 15 minutes, it recovers, after that recovers progressively less
3) Given that every two hours the E-Cat would require again to be powered, the necessary amperage needed in this phase would be the same of starting phase? No
4) How long will last this periodical powering phase (more or less)? 1 hour

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Recently some detailed questions have been asked on Rossi’s site, and he has provided some answers:


1. Can the e-cat replace my existing boiler and will I require two e-cats? the 2 E-Cats will be applied to your heater, which will be a back up
2. Is the home e-cat designed to operate on an ‘on demand’ basis? I read that it had a long start up time so I’m not sure. It can work on demand, using a by pass. The E-Cat will work at lower energy, ready to give max power on demand.
3. Will the e-cat need to be on and operating non stop, i.e. 24 hours per day for my scenario above? it will be alweays on, but you will regulate it on demand
4. Can the output be varied in accordance with the heat required? Yes
5. If yes to the above question, will the electricity consumption reduce too with the reduction in heat output? Yes
6. If yes to above then by how much will the electricity consumption reduce? What is the minimum consumption? The minimum is zero, the max is 2.7, the average is 1.2
7. Is the 1.67kW electricity consumption an average consumption taking into account the 2.8kW start up consumption and the self-sustain periods? Yes
8. If yes to the above question then for 24 hours continuous operation it will use 40kW (1.67kW*24) of electricity? less, it will be 1,2 x 24, if you use it 24 hours

Second set of questions:

1) Could the E-Cat itself (not it’s control devices) be damaged if the starting procedure was abruptly interrupted? No
2) Giving immediately back power, would mean restarting from the beginning or you will save the time spent before interruption? depends from the time elapsed between the two phases: if it is up to 15 minutes, it recovers, after that recovers progressively less
3) Given that every two hours the E-Cat would require again to be powered, the necessary amperage needed in this phase would be the same of starting phase? No
4) How long will last this periodical powering phase (more or less)? 1 hour

This is like asking what colour are the leprechauns that live on my driveway.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Sigh...
Very simplified : The only way you can get cold fusion, is if you can make an atom fall apart into separate components that then fuse to form a lighter element again and release excess energy as EM but exactly as you desire while having full control.
This asks for a degree of manipulation that even the good people at IBM have not mastered yet. We just start to get a good grip on plasma. "Cold" fusion is still very far in a possible future. It will never be cold fusion, there will always be side effects that need to be dealt with. Dangerous life threatening side effects...

And Rossi can do it with a few old pipes and aluminum foil...

I say :

 

[adlep]

Sigh...
Very simplified : The only way you can get cold fusion, is if you can make an atom fall apart into separate components that then fuse to form a lighter element again and release excess energy as EM but exactly as you desire while having full control.
This asks for a degree of manipulation that even the good people at IBM have not mastered yet. We just start to get a good grip on plasma. "Cold" fusion is still very far in a possible future. It will never be cold fusion, there will always be side effects that need to be dealt with. Dangerous life threatening side effects...

And Rossi can do it with a few old pipes and aluminum foil...

I say :

I say:

Never say never

http://anstd.ans.org/NETS2012/NETS2012Home.html

From one of the the papers quoted by the event:

"A Game-Changing Power Source Based on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENRs) Xiaoling Yang and George H. Miley, University of Illinois, Urbana, IL 61801 (104 S Wright Street, 216 Talbot Laboratory, Urbana, IL 61801, xlyang@illinois.edu, ghmiley@illinois.edu)"

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf

Excess heat generation from our gas-loading LENR power cell (Figure 1) has been verified, confirming nuc-lear reactions provide output energy. While there are similarities between ours and the Rossi E-Cat gas-loaded kW-MW LENR cells that have attracted inter-national attention, there are important differences in nanoparticle composition and cell construction.

Cliffs: According to this research brief, the Rossis' approach is real and easy to duplicate in the typical lab environment.

Edit: It seems that in this particular case, a group of academically established scholars are following the Rossi's approach and quote him. Plugging xlyang@illinois.edu into goolge leads to plethora of other LENR related publications by Ms. Xiaoling Yang...

Edit: Found another gem of an article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNFNWlykQLhrtvR6KZtEoSmjz4btsQ&cad=rja

"SMALL POWER CELLS BASED ON LOW ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTION (LENR) - A NEW TYPE OF “GREEN” NUCLEAR ENERGY"

(I call it Rossis' approach because he has invented it.)

At this point I don't expect and don't want the mocking in this thread to STOP, but some of you may want to make your LOL signs bit smaller and leave yourself "some" wiggle room...

 

[wirednuts]

to me, its shocking we have come this far with technology and yet we have so little idea how to produce and store energy. i mean, nuclear power plants are the best we got and theyre nothing more then naturally occurring tea pots.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I say:

Never say never

http://anstd.ans.org/NETS2012/NETS2012Home.html

From one of the the papers quoted by the event:

"A Game-Changing Power Source Based on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENRs) Xiaoling Yang and George H. Miley, University of Illinois, Urbana, IL 61801 (104 S Wright Street, 216 Talbot Laboratory, Urbana, IL 61801, xlyang@illinois.edu, ghmiley@illinois.edu)"

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf

Cliffs: According to this research brief, the Rossis' approach is real and easy to duplicate in the typical lab environment.

Edit: It seems that in this particular case, a group of academically established scholars are following the Rossi's approach and quote him. Plugging xlyang@illinois.edu into goolge leads to plethora of other LENR related publications by Ms. Xiaoling Yang...


Edit: Found another gem of an article:
www.icenes2011docs.org/sites/.../2.7.23_Miley_ICENES2011.pdf

"SMALL POWER CELLS BASED ON LOW ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTION (LENR) - A NEW TYPE OF “GREEN” NUCLEAR ENERGY"

At this point I don't expect and don't want the mocking in this thread to STOP, but some of you may want to make your LOL signs bit smaller and leave yourself "some" wiggle room...

I am always a bit skeptical when people do not want to explain how such a device functions. I mean to write, that i visualize it as a black box with an input and an output.
I will just wait until the comparison is made between energy input and output.
I mean all that energy must be harvested as well. If the harvesting of that energy consumes more than is generated, there is still no use. I can honestly write here that over time you will find some release of EM waves from any material that interacts with other material everywhere.
For example, let them start testing it in a vacuum chamber after analyzing all the materials and how these materials react on each other chemically over time. And then we will see...

With fission and fusion nuclear reactions, there is so much excess energy. That even with the "prehistoric" methods that we use, there is more then enough left to power entire cities with millions of people and produce in the case of fission and also in the case of the D-T fusion process highly energetic radioactive waste. That waste has in the case of fission enough power to again power cities for another hundred years. And then again there is waste left that still has more then enough power if we knew how to utilize it. There are more then enough examples in nature where it seems there is energy enough. Until you want to harvest energy or scale it up...

.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I read in the pdf that they have done some checks and use a vacuum.
But they use palladium. I do not know much about that material, except that it has exceptional properties. It can speed up chemical reactions. A so called catalyst. As a side note, in biology some proteins have similar functionality and are called catalysts as well. Palladium is also used in the catalytic converter in auto mobiles. The palladium is the secret.

I do not know if this is the explanation :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogenation#Electrolytic_hydrogenation
This process is exothermic. This means that energy is released in the process.

To be honest, i do not have the knowledge when it comes to chemistry. Perhaps Cyclowizard or paperdoc or somebody else skilled in these matters can explain it to you and me. I could be wrong. But i do know that without the palladium, this device does nothing. And palladium seems to be rare and expensive.

 

[adlep]

I am always a bit skeptical when people do not want to explain how such a device functions. I mean to write, that i visualize it as a black box with an input and an output.
I will just wait until the comparison is made between energy input and output.
I mean all that energy must be harvested as well. If the harvesting of that energy consumes more then is generated, there is still no use. I can honestly write here that over time you will find some release of EM waves from any material that interacts with other material everywhere.
For example, let them start testing it in a vacuum chamber after analyzing all the materials and how these materials react on each other chemically over time. And then we will see...

With fission and fusion nuclear reactions, there is so much excess energy. That even with the "prehistoric" methods that we use, there is more then enough left to power entire cities with millions of people and produce in the case of fission and also in the case of the D-T fusion process highly energetic radioactive waste. That waste has in the case of fission enough power to again power cities for another hundred years. And then again there is waste left that still has more then enough power if we knew how to utilize it. There are more then enough examples in nature where it seems there is energy enough. Until you want to harvest energy or scale it up...

.

From what I can gather so far, it seems that whatever his catalyst is, it is very very simple to create and duplicate. So by revealing the catalyst without establishing a head start for himself he'd go "open source". I do not believe that this would be a right approach. IMO Rossi should become world's first trillionare. Rossi knows this and he does not want to end up like Nicola Tesla.

 

[adlep]

I read in the pdf that they have done some checks and use a vacuum.
But they use palladium. I do not know much about that material, except that it has exceptional properties. It can speed up chemical reactions. Palladium is also used in the catalytic converter in auto mobiles. The palladium is the secret.

I do not know if this is the explanation :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogenation#Electrolytic_hydrogenation
This process is exothermic. This means that energy is released in the process.

To be honest, i do not have the knowledge when it comes to chemistry. Perhaps Cyclowizard or paperdoc or somebody else skilled in these matters can explain it to you and me. I could be wrong. But i do know that without the palladium, this device does nothing. And palladium seems to be rare and expensive.

That does not matter. What matter is to be able to validate "Rossi's approach". Once that's done we will be able to use other catalysts for LENR.
Rossi btw claims that his catalyst uses nickel + hydrogen reaction. Some ppl on the Internet also speculate that tungsten is also used as a part of Rossis process.
Edit: Btw the picture in the first pdf from researches at UofI Urbana shows an apparatus similar to the prototype of the ECAT, so again, some of you should continue to mock and laugh but maybe a little bit less (?).

 

[dennilfloss]

Wasn't palladium involved also in the Fleischmann & Pons experiment?

 

[William Gaatjes]

From what I can gather so far, it seems that whatever his catalyst is, it is very very simple to create and duplicate. So by revealing the catalyst without establishing a head start for himself he'd go "open source". I do not believe that this would be a right approach. IMO Rossi should become world's first trillionare.

I am afraid that it might be that in the petrol industry, mr Rossi magic has been pretty common for decades. If mr Rossi is on to something that nobody ever thought of because a small heat generator was not the goal of the research, he should patent it. He might be able to produce something. But then again, the question is input vs output : efficiency over time and looked upon from different perspectives such as environment impact, maintenance, costs. If he needs large amounts of palladium, he may better start looking for the biological equivalent.

My personal idea is that with proteins, life can mimic the behavior of very toxic elements(because of the speed of reaction) or even elements that can not exist in nature because of the short half life of that element. I am sure that in nature , life has mastered the technique of perfect catalysts millions of years ago. Something that we only just now start to understand with the technique of building super atoms.

Super atom link :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom

 

[adlep]

I am afraid that it might be that in the petrol industry, mr Rossi magic has been pretty common for decades. If mr Rossi is on to something that nobody ever thought of because a small heat generator was not the goal of the research, he should patent it. He might be able to produce something. But then again, the question is input vs output : efficiency over time and looked upon from different perspectives such as environment impact, maintenance, costs. If he needs large amounts of palladium, he may better start looking for the biological equivalent.

My personal idea is that with proteins, life can mimic the behavior of very toxic elements(because of the speed of reaction) or even elements that can not exist in nature because of the short half life of that element. I am sure that in nature , life has mastered the technique of perfect catalysts millions of years ago. Something that we only just now start to understand with the technique of building super atoms.

Super atom link :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom

William,
Rossi claims self sustain mode. He apparently is actively prototyping a home heating unit FIRSTwith an option to purchase an integrated energy/electricity generator SECOND.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/r...o-corp-with-efficient-electricity-generation/

Rossi reported on what he considered a significant breakthrough in the area of electrical production. He said that just a few days ago Siemens AG (German engineering firm) were with him in his Bologna factory and they demonstrated a turbine that could produce electricity at 30 per cent efficiency from a steam temperature of 251 C. This is much lower than the 550 C steam temperatures that are required in conventional electrical generation. Rossi said that the E-Cat becomes unstable when working at high temperatures. He said that because of this breakthrough he feels like electrical production from the 1 MW plants could take place sooner than expected. Electricity production from the small E-Cats will still take some time according to Rossi.

Btw, those people who have problem with "university of bologna" should know that this is the OLDEST UNIVERSITY in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation

Interesting video:
http://youtu.be/EhvD4KuAEmo

http://youtu.be/S7lAlzMBzLQ -> Very interesting

and of course Hitler finds out:
http://youtu.be/dk27t12Vnag

 

[William Gaatjes]

That does not matter. What matter is to be able to validate "Rossi's approach". Once that's done we will be able to use other catalysts for LENR.
Rossi btw claims that his catalyst uses nickel + hydrogen reaction. Some ppl on the Internet also speculate that tungsten is also used as a part of Rossis process.
Edit: Btw the picture in the first pdf from researches at UofI Urbana shows an apparatus similar to the prototype of the ECAT, so again, some of you should continue to mock and laugh but maybe a little bit less (?).

You forget that there is extensive knowledge about the elements and the properties. I have a linked not so long ago a lot of links to a website containing a lot of digitized books about vacuum tube technology.
All this knowledge is sort of forgotten since the invention of the Si transistor.
But vacuum tube technology and research has been the basis for a lot of physics explanations.
I do not have proof about this, but i am pretty sure :
Because of the cold war, a lot of funding was present to systematically research every element and its properties. A lot of companies also did private research. Making maximum use from petrol is another reason.


But again i do not have enough knowledge about these matters.
This is pretty common since 1970 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–hydrogen_battery

And the tungsten to atomic hydrogen is because of Irving Langmuir made the discovery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Langmuir

His initial contributions to science came from his study of light bulbs (a continuation of his Ph.D. work). His first major development was the improvement of the diffusion pump, which ultimately led to the invention of the high-vacuum tube. A year later, he and colleague Lewi Tonks discovered that the lifetime of a tungsten filament was greatly lengthened by filling the bulb with an inert gas, such as argon. He also discovered that twisting the filament into a tight coil improved its efficiency. These were important developments in the history of the incandescent light bulb. His work in surface chemistry began at this point, when he discovered that molecular hydrogen introduced into a tungsten-filament bulb dissociated into atomic hydrogen and formed a layer one atom thick on the surface of the bulb.[

Do not forget that the tungsten is heated in the bulb by an electrical current. Do some research about how halogen lamps function and why they use halogen. It is all about the filament pushed to extreme temperatures.

 

[Ichinisan]

I am always a bit skeptical when people do not want to explain how such a device functions. I mean to write, that i visualize it as a black box with an input and an output.
I will just wait until the comparison is made between energy input and output.
I mean all that energy must be harvested as well. If the harvesting of that energy consumes more than is generated, there is still no use. I can honestly write here that over time you will find some release of EM waves from any material that interacts with other material everywhere.
For example, let them start testing it in a vacuum chamber after analyzing all the materials and how these materials react on each other chemically over time. And then we will see...

With fission and fusion nuclear reactions, there is so much excess energy. That even with the "prehistoric" methods that we use, there is more than enough left to power entire cities with millions of people and produce in the case of fission and also in the case of the D-T fusion process highly energetic radioactive waste. That waste has in the case of fission enough power to again power cities for another hundred years. And then again there is waste left that still has more than enough power if we knew how to utilize it. There are more than enough examples in nature where it seems there is energy enough. Until you want to harvest energy or scale it up...

.

Than. Just sayin'

 

[William Gaatjes]

Than. Just sayin'

Thank you .You are right.

 

[PowerEngineer]

That does not matter. What matter is to be able to validate "Rossi's approach". Once that's done we will be able to use other catalysts for LENR.
Rossi btw claims that his catalyst uses nickel + hydrogen reaction. Some ppl on the Internet also speculate that tungsten is also used as a part of Rossis process.
Edit: Btw the picture in the first pdf from researches at UofI Urbana shows an apparatus similar to the prototype of the ECAT, so again, some of you should continue to mock and laugh but maybe a little bit less (?).

For you, it seems that "no news is good news" because there is certainly nothing really new in your recent posts.


It's hard for me to believe that the UofI Urbana can be happy with the slipshod paper you linked. Just over a page that boils down to another unsubstantiated claim for LENR that:

• hasn't factored in the possible contributions of chemical reactions which the authors have decided to characterize as "unlikely",
• is based on inconsistent thermalcouple readings which they choose to explain away rather than investigate and fix, and
• has only been run once? Wouldn't it be nice to see the results of a few dozen runs?

As I've said before, I will not rule out the possibility of some sort of LENR effect. That said, there's nothing in the so-called experiments to date or the materials you've posted that would lead anyone with a healthy dose of scientific skepicism to conclude that LENR exists.

I'm sorry if comes across as mocking or laughing, but it's hard for most of us to understand why you cling so tenaciously to your belief in Rossi's claims when there is so little evidence for them.

Edit: Xiaoling Yang is a Biomedical Engineer/Electrochemist and postdoctoral research associate at UofI

 

[Bignate603]

This is definitely a "I'll believe it when I see it" thing.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

William,
Rossi claims self sustain mode. He apparently is actively prototyping a home heating unit FIRSTwith an option to purchase an integrated energy/electricity generator SECOND.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/r...o-corp-with-efficient-electricity-generation/

This doesn't actually say anything. If I wanted, I could have posted that and nobody would have any way of verifying if it were true or not.

Btw, those people who have problem with "university of bologna" should know that this is the OLDEST UNIVERSITY in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation

Argument from antiquity, and complete bullshit. Does that mean that the oldest person alive should also be implicitly trusted just because they're old?

Interesting video:
http://youtu.be/EhvD4KuAEmo

http://youtu.be/S7lAlzMBzLQ -> Very interesting

First video doesn't tell me much. Haven't watched the second yet.

You still haven't really explained how a post-iron fusion reaction could produce energy.

 

[adlep]

Highlights from presentation at CERN today:

"Overview of Theoretical and Experimental Progress in Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR)
by Francesco Celani, Yogendra Srivastava"
http://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=177379
(slides available, I hope that the screencast of the presentation will be available soon)

- Mr. Celani does mention Rossi in his demo.
- He states that the Fleischmann and Pons experiment from 89 has been replicated by NASA but the results were not made public and he has accidentally stumbled upon this NASA paper confirming it:
http://cfeis.com/images/NASA.pdf
-

 

[-Slacker-]

Atoms don't fuse out of the goodness of their warm, fuzzy hearts. Do you understand that you need an obscene amount of pressure/heat/energy to make them do that? It's the polar opposite of "cold".

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Atoms don't fuse out of the goodness of their warm, fuzzy hearts. Do you understand that you need an obscene amount of pressure/heat/energy to make them do that? It's the polar opposite of "cold".

Shush. Don't let facts get in the way of good ideology.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I don't understand the language they're speaking but the general concensus I get is that it's some kind of energy storage device.

The oil industry will buy it up and we'll never hear of it again. Tune in after the break for sports.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I know how to generate cats. Just feed them...

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Atoms don't fuse out of the goodness of their warm, fuzzy hearts. Do you understand that you need an obscene amount of pressure/heat/energy to make them do that? It's the polar opposite of "cold".

You just need to believe enough and anything can happen!