Poll: Should you be able to get a refund on bad games?

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Should you be able to get a refund on games?

  • Yes, at any time

  • Yes, but only if you have had it for less than a certain amount of time

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

M0oG0oGaiPan

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2000
7,858
2
0
digitalgamedeals.com
If it's a game that uses always on DRM or authentication servers then maybe. Otherwise there's going to be people abusing the system. Much easier to say no to everyone.

I could be wrong but I think you used to be able to return games at babbages/bestbuy. I knew a guy that would buy games. Burn a copy and return them. Might have been for psx though.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
Like i said, so many ways to see if a game is bad before YOU buy it.

So rather than holding a company accountable for releasing a shoddy product you want the onus to be on the consumer to have to diligently research every single game they are interested in...?

This is on top of the fact that those companies then bribe games reviewers and pay people to talk positively about their products on Internet forums.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
If it's a game that uses always on DRM or authentication servers then maybe. Otherwise there's going to be people abusing the system. Much easier to say no to everyone.

Of course there will be people abusing the system; so what? The developers and publishers have been abusing it for decades now.

People can get refunds for ebooks so why not software?
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
This is on top of the fact that those companies then bribe games reviewers and pay people to talk positively about their products on Internet forums.

Not to mention using NDR's and DMCA takedowns (often illegally) to control the information until they already have that all important first week of sales.
 
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M0oG0oGaiPan

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2000
7,858
2
0
digitalgamedeals.com
Because it's easier not to accept returns? Some of the always on DRM places will refund your money if you're not satisfied with something. It might be rare but it happens. If it's a boxed copy it's a hassle because you have to put out another cd or box because no one wants a scratched disc or something that's been used. Or you can call it refurbished maybe. I was just reading about some guy who bought a one piece track suit on revzilla and tried returning it after it had been clearly been ridden in and was used for a track session. Some guy had to unpack the suit and look at the condition. Email the guy an offer for a refund and the guy still tried to screw them over.

Anyway, I'm thinking of boxed copies. There's a lot of transfer of goods on ebay that come with a no refund policy. Probably a way to cut down on costs.

GMG lets you trade in some games. A system like that could work for returns.
 

SlitheryDee

Lifer
Feb 2, 2005
17,252
19
81
Not if they're on sale. If they're marking their product down to get you to buy it, they shouldn't have to deal with returns on that product.

On full priced games, yes. You should have a short window during which you could return a game if it's shit. Maybe 48 hours after purchase or something like that. I think this would be good for gaming overall.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
So rather than holding a company accountable for releasing a shoddy product you want the onus to be on the consumer to have to diligently research every single game they are interested in...?

This is on top of the fact that those companies then bribe games reviewers and pay people to talk positively about their products on Internet forums.

"Shoddy" product means the game doesn't work. And you can return it if it doesn't work.

If you don't like the game, tough shit. Just like how a car loses value when you drive it off the lot, its similar for PC games.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
"Shoddy" product means the game doesn't work. And you can return it if it doesn't work.

If you don't like the game, tough shit. Just like how a car loses value when you drive it off the lot, its similar for PC games.

How would I return a game that I bought off Steam or another digital distributor?

And 'doesn't work' should include game-breaking bugs as well.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
How would I return a game that I bought off Steam or another digital distributor?

And 'doesn't work' should include game-breaking bugs as well.

Talk to steam customer support.

Similarly game breaking bugs falls under "does not work". If it doesn't work, return it. If you don't like the game because the story sucks, graphics are bad, etc.... well that'll be harder to explain to any sort of CR.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
"Shoddy" product means the game doesn't work. And you can return it if it doesn't work.

If you don't like the game, tough shit. Just like how a car loses value when you drive it off the lot, its similar for PC games.

There is more to 'shoddy' then doesn't work. The point of a game is to be entertainment. If it fails at that it can be a shoddy product.

Imagine if Diablo 3 comes out and in Act 2 you have to find Diablo's new lair. The game designers decided that to do this you have to audit Diablo's minions books, as represented in a mini-game. So, to advance in the game you have to spend the next 20 hours with your character sitting at a desk and clicking the correct answer to a math problem that pops up.

None of us would know that this is in the game, because we have not been told anything about the second act, and Blizzard has been very carful to protect knowledge of what the later parts of the game actual entail. Would you not consider this product to be ‘shoddy’?
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
Personally, I think that the large corporations have plenty of protections already in place to keep their nasty customers from abusing them. So, I say to them, Boo-fucking-hoo, you make a crappy game and people are going to return it. Wahhhh, you no longer can use cheap market control methods to manipulate and control the information until you have their money in hand and they have no recourse.

Dry the crocodile tears and man the fuck up. We are no longer talking about small groups of dedicated artists creating code in their basement out of a love of the technology. Games companies have billion dollar budgets, massive marketing campaigns, and teams of lawyers and lobbyists to manipulate the system to their advantage. They can work in the same market the rest of the world has to deal with, and that includes the ability for consumers to return crappy products that don’t live up to the hype you pumped into it.

I am just curious what world you live in where casual consumer goods can be returned so easily? let me qualify that by saying entertainment goods. If I go see a movie and it is crap, I can't go back to the theater manager and demand my money back. if I download a song and then decide it isn't my thing anymore, i can't return it for a full refund. if i go to a show or even buy a meal, I can't demand my full refund (unless there is something real and significantly wrong with it).

As for manning up, I would say taking responsibility for your choices is man enough. Whining saying 'Boo Hoo, this game isn't as fun as the commercial made it look' is kind of childish. But maybe that's just me.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
There is more to 'shoddy' then doesn't work. The point of a game is to be entertainment. If it fails at that it can be a shoddy product.

Imagine if Diablo 3 comes out and in Act 2 you have to find Diablo's new lair. The game designers decided that to do this you have to audit Diablo's minions books, as represented in a mini-game. So, to advance in the game you have to spend the next 20 hours with your character sitting at a desk and clicking the correct answer to a math problem that pops up.

None of us would know that this is in the game, because we have not been told anything about the second act, and Blizzard has been very carful to protect knowledge of what the later parts of the game actual entail. Would you not consider this product to be ‘shoddy’?

Your example is outlandish and quite unrealistic, but no I wouldn't consider the product to be shoddy. Falsely advertised and didn't meet my expectations? Sure. But if my computer plays it and there's no major bugs that prevents me from running the game? No, the game isn't shoddy, it'd be poorly designed and terrible and I'd give it a 1 star out of 10 in any review I write along with metacritic...but it's not shoddy. Shady? Yes.

I certainly would feel ripped off, but you don't always get what you pay for. But thank goodness reputable companies like blizzard are pretty good with their track record. In most places the only reasonable excuse for returning something is "it's broken". "I didn't like it" isn't an accepted excuse.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
There is more to 'shoddy' then doesn't work. The point of a game is to be entertainment. If it fails at that it can be a shoddy product.

Imagine if Diablo 3 comes out and in Act 2 you have to find Diablo's new lair. The game designers decided that to do this you have to audit Diablo's minions books, as represented in a mini-game. So, to advance in the game you have to spend the next 20 hours with your character sitting at a desk and clicking the correct answer to a math problem that pops up.

None of us would know that this is in the game, because we have not been told anything about the second act, and Blizzard has been very carful to protect knowledge of what the later parts of the game actual entail. Would you not consider this product to be ‘shoddy’?

Yeah, um.... Your supposition is quite absurd. They wouldn't do that. of course, they ARE doing something I don't like and won't purchase because of (despite being a HUGE Diablo 1-2 fan) and that is the always online.

but let's just assume that Blizzard did do something as you describe. We may not know NOW, but I can guarantee that as soon as the first couple of players get to that point and find that out, they will sing it on the mountain tops. And it will become known. I would be willing to bet that type of thing would become an Internet Hot issue within hours of release (if not before).

See, the problem is (and probably where you should have taken your example from) with ME3, the ending sucked. There are a lot of people DID say that they thought they should get their money back. The game worked as intended (more or less), but the ending was creatively not what people wanted or expected. Would you have companies give these players who have had hundreds of hours of fun for $60 simply over the last ten minutes? Lots and LOTS of players would.

So again, I say Read the reviews.

The way I see it, if a game sucks bad enough, you have recourse. Either (a) read the reviews and don't buy it or (b) be very wary of the next game that company comes out with and learn your less/vote with your wallet.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,509
29,090
146
no.

wait, let me change that:

Hell no!

If you have a problem with picking up bad games, then stop considering them as impulse buys? Do a little more research.

I know, I know, the media, the reviews are all biased, they can't really account for your taste--but THERE YOU GO. What is "bad" to you? Are you talking about a broken game or something that you simply don't like?

Why should a developer be beholden to your taste if you've already made the decision to purchase their product, and considering the reams and reams of information freely available to you to influence your decision?

Now, I can see an argument where you pre-purchase a game, but then at release, they have drastically altered the content, the play, form what it was advertised to be, and you can prove this through documentation (community reviews and such); or the company did not advertise "malicious" code/DRM that you don't want to install--but that's not about being a "bad game," I guess, but a company selling you an altered version of the product you agreed to purchase.

But getting refunds based on an entirely subjective rating? lolno.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
no.

wait, let me change that:

Hell no!

If you have a problem with picking up bad games, then stop considering them as impulse buys? Do a little more research.

I know, I know, the media, the reviews are all biased, they can't really account for your taste--but THERE YOU GO. What is "bad" to you? Are you talking about a broken game or something that you simply don't like?

Why should a developer be beholden to your taste if you've already made the decision to purchase their product, and considering the reams and reams of information freely available to you to influence your decision?

Now, I can see an argument where you pre-purchase a game, but then at release, they have drastically altered the content, the play, form what it was advertised to be, and you can prove this through documentation (community reviews and such); or the company did not advertise "malicious" code/DRM that you don't want to install--but that's not about being a "bad game," I guess, but a company selling you an altered version of the product you agreed to purchase.

But getting refunds based on an entirely subjective rating? lolno.

+1
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
I am just curious what world you live in where casual consumer goods can be returned so easily? let me qualify that by saying entertainment goods. If I go see a movie and it is crap, I can't go back to the theater manager and demand my money back."
Same world as you. You can go to a movie, and if it is total crap get a refund, I've done it many times. Give it a try yourself, go to a movie, and walk out in the middle and tell the manager that you can't stand the show. He will refund your ticket.

Here is Amazon.com's return policy on e-books:
Books you purchase from the Kindle Store are eligible for return and refund if we receive your request within seven days of the date of purchase.

Of course they have a similar return policy on their Android market.

Google Play currently has the following policy:
You have 15 minutes from the time of download to return an application purchased on Google Play for a full refund.

As you know, Google Play sales music, movies, as well as apps.

And I can't tell you how often I've returned a meal for it being just plain bad. In fact I did it just this Saturday.

As you can see it is not that unheard of for stores to give refunds on entertainment when the consumer deems the quality to be poor, even if it was a download. It is about keeping the customer happy.

Your example is outlandish and quite unrealistic, but no I wouldn't consider the product to be shoddy. Falsely advertised and didn't meet my expectations? Sure. But if my computer plays it and there's no major bugs that prevents me from running the game? No, the game isn't shoddy, it'd be poorly designed and terrible and I'd give it a 1 star out of 10 in any review I write along with metacritic...but it's not shoddy. Shady? Yes.

What definitions of shoddy are you using that do not include 'poorly designed and terrible'?

And it is not that outlandish or unrealistic. Mass Effect 2 did basically that. How many hours did you players of that game sit and move a curser across a colored ball? And did you ever play the last two installments in the Leisure Suit Larry games? The math game I described would be fun compared to some of the time sinks that game had.

These games are broken. They were intentionally broken by the publishers because they wanted the marketing department to be able to say 30+ hours of gameplay.
Just how bad does a game have to be before we can say it is broken, or can they put out any steaming pile of code and we have to just accept it?
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
Same world as you. You can go to a movie, and if it is total crap get a refund, I've done it many times. Give it a try yourself, go to a movie, and walk out in the middle and tell the manager that you can't stand the show. He will refund your ticket.

I am so glad you picked that example. I used to BE a theater manager. And you are right, if some loud mouth came out of the theater complaining up a storm about how terrible the movie was and making a general scene about the place, I gave him/her their money back. Not because I had to or even wanted to, but because I was embarrassed that they felt childish enough to throw a temper tantrum about the whole thing. And you know how many times it happened in 5 years in that job? Twice. And this was during the time when Mannequin was in the theaters.

But to be charitable, let me say that you have to be pretty cheesed off about a movie to walk out on it. At least I would have to be. Usually it is related to something truly objectionable or abhorrent about the movie, not simply a casual dislike or disappointment. Otherwise, No Sasha Baren Cohen movie would ever make any money at all. And in that case, sure.

But unless I am completely wrong, you aren't talking about deep rooted offense with a game, but merely it not meeting your expectations. Basically, you want to get a free test drive just to see if it is something you want in replacement of actually doing research. that is more in keeping with the Clothing and Music examples. And that is not reasonable to expect a refund over. Not to mention the nightmare of having to police such a policy.

If I played a game and half way through it I came across, oh lets say child porn or something and it hadn't been previously disclosed, I would be outraged and demand my money back. But when I played Dragon Age 2, a game I was thoroughly disappointed with, I never thought once of trying to get my money back. And although I felt robbed of the game DA2 should have been, I still don't feel that Bioware owes me anything. I won't buy DA3 without thorough vetting first, but that is about all.

Oh, and the Kindle return policy is intended, not for if you don't like the book but if it was purchased in error. The same probably applies to the Google Play return policy. Big difference. But still there are people who intentionally abuse the system.
 
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PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
What definitions of shoddy are you using that do not include 'poorly designed and terrible'?

And it is not that outlandish or unrealistic. Mass Effect 2 did basically that. How many hours did you players of that game sit and move a curser across a colored ball? And did you ever play the last two installments in the Leisure Suit Larry games? The math game I described would be fun compared to some of the time sinks that game had.

These games are broken. They were intentionally broken by the publishers because they wanted the marketing department to be able to say 30+ hours of gameplay.
Just how bad does a game have to be before we can say it is broken, or can they put out any steaming pile of code and we have to just accept it?

Another terrible example. The mining made up about 1% of the game. And personally, I enjoyed mass effect 2 except for the mineral mining part. I'm not whining about how I need my money back because I focused on the 99% of the game that was actually good instead of the 1% that was bad and can be easily bypassed.

In all accounts, you are giving ridiculous examples and focusing on the tiny bad part of an big picture. If you gave other examples about how you hated ME2 because the RPG elements were removed and the combat was dumbed down I might've taken you seriously. Again I'll reiterate what others are saying: Do your research. Also work on using realistic examples.

Meals are a different issue, but you sound like you're an ass about it anyways so I won't go into it. You are filled with a sense of entitlement about how you should get your money back if you dislike just about anything in life, and that's fine. All companies have a return policy for people just like you. Not because they feel like you deserve the money and they're genuinely sorry about you feeling this way, but so you can shut up and go away and bother someone else. Life must suck if you're constantly trying to not enjoy stuff just so you can get your money back. I'm a pessimist myself but people like you just make me chuckle, because I know somewhere out there you're having a worse day than I am.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
No, but demos should be available for as many games as possible to allow people to make informed decisions about their gaming purchases.

I'm convinced we dont see more demos cuz deep down inside publishers know it will hurt their sales. Seriously, thats the only reason you would NOT want someone to play a sample of your game.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,097
126
Go rent the game first. If it's something worth while buy a good one in the CD/DVD case. If the game is a junk, move on. Life is too short to putz around looking at game reviews and joe's posting stupid stuff.

I've never heard of PC game rental.

Then you either aren't reading the reviews properly, or you aren't reading the right reviews.

Do some research before you press that "Buy" button. Check out the forums for these games. Ask consumers here at Anandtech. And actually READ what is said.

I'm going to assume that you don't mean to come off like a douche, but I did do some research on it. I don't know what you mean by "reading the reviews properly"; I read them while drinking coffee, which seems about the best way to read anything.

As far as a "lack of understanding of how the world works", I'm not saying I "deserve" my money back, I was just having a discussion with friends and thought I'd see what AT thinks. I do feel ripped off, and I would gladly return my right to play it for my money back. Maybe it's my fault for thinking that DICE was going to bring back that BF 1942/BF 2 feel. After Bad Company, 2142 (I know, a lot of people liked that one, it was passable), and the last BF2 patch, maybe I should have known better.

Maybe I should just fish more. :p
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,695
4
0
"Shoddy" product means the game doesn't work. And you can return it if it doesn't work.

Maybe my memory is hazy, but I seem to recall a crapload of people buying GTA 4 for PC only to find out it wouldn't work properly for them. Or, to go farther back, an even larger crapload of people buying HL2 for PC, only to find out they couldn't even activate it because of steam bugs.

Did I miss the articles that described how they were able to return their games for a full refund?
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
I'm going to assume that you don't mean to come off like a douche, but I did do some research on it. I don't know what you mean by "reading the reviews properly"; I read them while drinking coffee, which seems about the best way to read anything.

As far as a "lack of understanding of how the world works", I'm not saying I "deserve" my money back, I was just having a discussion with friends and thought I'd see what AT thinks. I do feel ripped off, and I would gladly return my right to play it for my money back. Maybe it's my fault for thinking that DICE was going to bring back that BF 1942/BF 2 feel. After Bad Company, 2142 (I know, a lot of people liked that one, it was passable), and the last BF2 patch, maybe I should have known better.

Maybe I should just fish more. :p

what I mean is read reviews for content rather than merely to say "I read it". As stated before, when researching a game title, understand what you want out of it. What types of things you will find enjoyable and what types of things bug you. Go to the forums of the game developers and read what other gamers have to say. If you find things that fall into the categories of the types of things you enjoy about the game, see what people say about those elements. And the same for things you hate. This, more than the "6 out of 10" reviews will give you a better picture of if it is the type of game you will enjoy.

Far to many people merely go to Everybodiesacritic.com and say "But the game got 98%! It MUST be good." Only everyone might like it because they voted 10 billion times. Or because they enjoy elements that you don't. or simply because they bought into the hype and aren't voting on content.

Is this method 100%? No. But nothing in life is 100%. It should weed out the vast majority of games that you feel so disappointed with that you want your money back.

Problem is, a lot of people buy a game on release and without doing any research. They buy into the hype and just assume that marketers wouldn't stretch the truth. And then they feel that they can blame the companies for their own mistakes and demand their money back. Life doesn't work that way. And it shouldn't.

Yes, there are going to be companies that are going to publish half finished pieces of crap. Yes, game designers are going to create game mechanics that are both annoying and stupid. And yes, game plot lines and ending points are going to leave players unfulfilled. But you don't have to be as shoddy as they are. You can actually do your job and read up on the game before you put your money down. 99.99% of all of this is avoidable by the informed consumer. And the remaining .01% is just life.

Truth be told, you could buy the greatest game ever made and get hit by a car on the way home from the store. Should you get your money back because you didn't get to play it? No. People are far too entitled around here and think that they should be just given everything on a silver platter. Do the research. make informed decisions and you don't have to rely on corporate jerks who will NEVER give you your money back, even if you deserve it. Take ownership of your lives and your decisions. That's all I am saying.
 
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imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
So rather than holding a company accountable for releasing a shoddy product you want the onus to be on the consumer to have to diligently research every single game they are interested in...?

This is on top of the fact that those companies then bribe games reviewers and pay people to talk positively about their products on Internet forums.

Please, its easy to tell if a game by users is bad or good. Always has been.

That is like saying someone who bought a copy of Minecraft and wanting a refund because they expect it to be super awesome compared to a polished game like Batman Arkham City.

Each game has its own unique flavor, some love it some hate it. Wanting a refund because a game did not live up to what you thought it was going to be is insane.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Maybe my memory is hazy, but I seem to recall a crapload of people buying GTA 4 for PC only to find out it wouldn't work properly for them. Or, to go farther back, an even larger crapload of people buying HL2 for PC, only to find out they couldn't even activate it because of steam bugs.

Did I miss the articles that described how they were able to return their games for a full refund?

And is someone returning a game such a big deal that they need to write an article about it?... Seriously think about what you're saying for just a brief second and realize how ridiculous you sound. Do you let the world know that Macys accepted your return by writing an article about it?
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
Another terrible example. The mining made up about 1% of the game. And personally, I enjoyed mass effect 2 except for the mineral mining part. I'm not whining about how I need my money back because I focused on the 99% of the game that was actually good instead of the 1% that was bad and can be easily bypassed.

Don't know how you played, but it took up way more then 1% of my game. I really think I spent more time on that silly mini-game then the actual game.

In all accounts, you are giving ridiculous examples and focusing on the tiny bad part of an big picture. If you gave other examples about how you hated ME2 because the RPG elements were removed and the combat was dumbed down I might've taken you seriously. Again I'll reiterate what others are saying: Do your research. Also work on using realistic examples.

You seemed to have missed the entire point of my argument. I'll try to make it again.
I don't really mind the basic elements of the game being dumbed down. That was adequately presented to us before the game launched. What I do mind is time consuming and patently un-fun aspects of the game being added in, most notoriously mini-games like the mining game in ME2, for the pure sake of lengthening the game. Doing that in itself makes me not want to buy the game, doing it and then covering it up is the sort of thing I think qualifies for a refund.

Meals are a different issue, but you sound like you're an ass about it anyways so I won't go into it.

I'm not really an ass about it. I just expect that a professionally cooked meal be properly prepared. Steak should come out at the ordered level of doneness. Pasta should not be so badly over cooked to the point that it is mush. Vegetarian meals should not have meat in them, or use meat products such as chicken broth. I have recently returned meals for all of these reasons, and all at decent to high end restaurants (like wolfgang puck's 560 where a meal listed as, and verified by our waiter as, vegetarian had chicken in it.)


You are filled with a sense of entitlement about how you should get your money back if you dislike just about anything in life, and that's fine. All companies have a return policy for people just like you. Not because they feel like you deserve the money and they're genuinely sorry about you feeling this way, but so you can shut up and go away and bother someone else. Life must suck if you're constantly trying to not enjoy stuff just so you can get your money back. I'm a pessimist myself but people like you just make me chuckle, because I know somewhere out there you're having a worse day than I am.

I feel that there is a explicit agreement between me and the companies that I deal with that they will provide the product that I paid them for and not try to deceive or scam me to get my money on false pretenses. Personally I feel very sorry for you that you have allowed the companies to convince you that you should have to just accept what ever product they dish out, no matter if it is the product you expect or not, and be happy that they are willing to take your money.

How have we gone so far that so many believe that companies should be allowed to lie, cheat, and steal to get our money.