Originally posted by: fyleow
Originally posted by: 95SS
Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: fyleow
Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: 95SS
along with amps having "sound quality"
I wish some "audiophiles" would step up and takes RC's $10K test. Maybe that would shut them up!!
:evil:
Some have. All failed. The myth continues.....
Wow so there is no sound quality difference between amps? Good one.
You're going to start telling me there's no difference between 128kbps MP3 and CD audio too right?
Your an idiot too. An amp AMPLIFIES, hence its name. If it does something else, its not an AMPLIFIER is it. Again, until you do a little research, help yourself to a cup of STFU and let the big peoples talk eh?
Don't waste your keystrokes. Some people can't be saved. You just have to let them go.
Okay genius then why are tube amps still being produced? Solid state amplifiers are so much easier to make and yet there are people who still prefer tubes. I'm sure it's all in psychological right? Companies like Texas Instruments throw money into amplifier R&D for fun?
Read this :
THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {April 21, 2000}
By Richard Clark
There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to
measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in
nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc.
My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can
be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the
relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step
between amplifier performance and our ability to hear performance
differences.
It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons
that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include
"obvious" advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For
example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange
response whereas other amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim
that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems.
Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal
interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular
amplifier is better than another amplifier. Differences in the quality of
the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling
the issue of "good - better - best." The sole purpose of my amplifier
challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible.
What differences are Audible?
I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to
various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary
psychoacoustics. For instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched
in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a
simple matter to detect such a difference. In such an example it is
important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the
component, design excellence, or superb marketing and packaging that caused
the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my
present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated within its
linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to
the human ear.
Comparing Amps
The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate
his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to
carefully match the amps so that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead
of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one
amplifier that had + 12 dB of high frequency boost against another amplifier
that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to
pass - even on identical amplifiers with consecutive serial numbers.
For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier
sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able
to identify each amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many
folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic
character, this test should be easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking
about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As"
to those warm sounding, smooth, bass hog "widget Bs."
Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're
looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those
differences are probably going to be very, very small, it is important that
the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as
possible. This means that we must be cognizant of differences we might
unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as
identical as possible. We already mentioned the importance of volume. The
same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an
amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a balanced amp. Right?
Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a
few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the
following section.
Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05
dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity.
(+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be
made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those circuits bypassed.
This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring
circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the
signal path of one (only one and the listener can decide which) of the amps
to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input
and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only
listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the
addition of an EQ in one signal path only should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a
problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that
can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output
is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB
from 20Hz to 20kHz.
In addition to these requirements the test will be conducted according to
the following rules.
Amplifier Test Comparison Rules
1. To make things easy we would prefer to use high quality home type
loudspeakers for the test. If our speakers are not acceptable, the listener
can provide any commercially available speaker system as long as it uses
dynamic drivers. The actual measured impedance cannot exceed the rated load
impedance of the amplifiers tested. If, however, the tester would like to
perform the test in a car, we will use a car, however, it will have to be
provided by the test subject. For practicality we will have to limit the
number of amplifier channels to four or less.
2. Amplifiers will be powered from the same power supply at a nominal 14
volts DC. (any voltage is OK as long as it is the same for both amps)
3. The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps will
not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not exceed the
power capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being tested. (power capacity
will be defined as clipping or 2%THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less)
4. No test signals can be used - only commercially available music.
5. The listener can compare two amps at a time for as long as desired. For
practical reasons we would like to keep this at least no more than a few
hours. A test session will consist of 12 A/B sequences. Passing the test
will require a positive identification of each amp for all 12 sequences.
Remember, guessing will get you about 6 out of 12. If the differences are so
great, and a subject can really hear the difference, then he/she should be
able to do so for all 12 sequences.
6. To win the $10,000.00, the listener must pass two complete sessions of 12
comparisons. Passing the test means 24 correct responses.* The amp of choice
can be compared to the same or a different amp in each session - challengers
choice. We have many amplifiers in our demo inventory such as, but not
limited to, Alpine, Rockford, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, MTX,
Adcom, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, etc. You can pick any of them or bring your
own.
7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage
amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be
modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers
designed to be powered from a car's electrical system."
8. Failure of an amp (this includes thermal shutdown) during the test will
require that the test be repeated after repair or replacement or cooling of
the amp. This means that the entire test session will have to be repeated.
9. The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a voltage
or current requirement.
10. To save time the listener will have to pass a quick 8 trial session to
qualify for the extended 2 session test for the money prize. Any 2 amps can
be used for this test. Passing this qualifying test will require at least 6
out of 8 correct answers.
11. The amplifier power up and/or power down sequence will not be acceptable
for comparison. (The turn on/off noises of some amplifiers would give it
away.)
12. Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects employed in
the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are eligible for the
$10,000.00 prize.
13. Cost to take the test is $100.00. $300.00 for people representing
companies. Payable in advance, scheduled appointments only. Done correctly
the test takes several hours and I don't have the time if you aren't
serious.
* Twelve correct responses in a row is certainly a lot of correct listening
but $10,000 is also a lot of money for a few hours of easy listening. The
way people describe the differences is that they are like night and day. I
would certainly not have any trouble choosing between an apple and an orange
12 times in a row. When compared fairly I believe the differences in amps
are much too small to audibly detect and certainly too small to pay large
sums of extra money for. If I am wrong someone should be able to carefully
take this test and win my money. Even if I am right, if enough people take
the test eventually someone will take my money due to random chance. This is
the reason for the large sample requirement. If you feel that you can easily
pass this test but 12 sequences will give you "listening fatigue" I am
willing to modify the requirements. Since the way it is being offered is a
challenge and only my money is at risk I am willing to let a confident
challenger "put his money where his ears are". If we are willing to make
this a bet instead of a challenge, I am willing to drop 1 sequence for every
thousand dollars put up by the challenger against my money. This would mean:
____My___________ _ _Your________Trails Required to
win__
$10,000 to $0 =
12 Tries
$9,000 to $1,000 =
11 Tries
$8,000 to $2,000 =
10 Tries
$7,000 to $3,000 =
9 Tries
$6,000 to $4,000 =
8 Tries
$5,000 to $5,000 =
7 Tries
$4,000 to $6,000 =
6 Tries
I will not do the test with less than 6 trails. It would be statistically
meaningless and reduce the challenge to mere gambling.
There may be differences, but not audible. If you can't hear any difference, what's the point??
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