Poll: 10" or 12" woofer

[AMCRambler]

If you listen to rap, hip hop or pop, you gotta have a 12. They give you the deep booming bass you just can't get from a 10. Pretty much for everything else a 10 will sound better except for those songs that have the thumping bass like some of POD's stuff and the Chili Peppers. My 12 just doesn't play the higher frequency lows you get from rock the same as a bass line from a rap song. My friends got a pair of 10's which sound much better for that music.

 

[Shockwave]

nan0bug,
Ok, your last statement gives some qualifiers I WOULD agree with. Such that ONLY 15's arent the way to go. Certainly not. For my midbass I'll take 8"s all day long. You missed my part where I said AND CROSSOVERS. Without good crossover points yes a 15" isnt going to be up to par with your smaller cones, because a large diameter driver doesnt extend upwards as well as a smaller cone.
But, given a guy who knows what he's doing, a 15" will work PERFECTLY fine.
Car audio? Gee... As well as home audio thanks. And custom designing my home theater 5.1, to include designing and making the crossovers and selecting the raw drivers.
Studio time? Good point. My friend started a recording company about a year ago up in Omaha. I've been there. Even jammed with them.

Course, I know nothing right? And for your "make it sound good on 1000+ system to walmart crap"
BS. Only way you do that is to compress the music and lose the dynamics of it. You CANT make it sound good for both. Period. It may sound good one both, but when you compress it your audiophiles are gonna get pissed cause it wont sound as good. Why do you think Sheffield is so popular for accurate recordings?

So, looks like we can both argue till we're blue in the face but fact stands the lower you go the bigger cone you want if you want good, accurate distortion free reproduction.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: nan0bug

Originally posted by: Viperoni
nan0bug, that's not what I said at all. You obviously didn't read much into the link either.

The "Le" spec, which shows the indutance of the subwoofers voice coil, and the transient response of the sub, is what matters.
I will now show you 2 subwoofers, one a small one and one a large one, where the small one will have a high Le, and the large one will have a low Le. The small one, an 8inch, is known as an SPL sub, not particularily revered for it's SQ, and the big one, a 15 incher, which is known for it's good sound quality (when placed in properly sized boxes).

Kicker 8L7
http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/04SL7%20Tech%20Brief.pdf
Page 32, S8L74, Le of 4.83mh.

Adire Audio Tempest
http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/drivers/adire/tempest.htm
Le of 2.9mh.

thats great. you found 2 examples to suit your argument just fine.

You car audio guys think you know everything about audio. I know many people who are into music production, and I can tell you for a fact that none of these people have 15in subwoofers in their studios because they simply cannot accurately reproduce sound the way smaller subwoofers do. You can produce on one just fine, but when you take that CD and put it in another stereo, it will not sound as clean as if it were produced on smaller subwoofers. The bass will sound either too boomy or too underpowered depending on the setup, because 15in subs by design do not give as accurate a rendition of the sound as smaller subwoofers do. I invite you to ask anyone who's serious about studio work what kind of subs they use. Call up a local studio and ask. Go on the internet and look at some studio setups. Come back and tell me I'm wrong, and I'll call you a god damn liar.

Why does the Wilson XS use 19" subs? Why does the Aurasound NRT-18/1808 have such a good reputation?

 

[Apex]

The XS actually uses two old 18" drivers, the 19" is a misprint. There's far better drivers these days, including the later gen Aurasounds. The tumult absolutely blows the XS's drivers out of the water.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Apex
The XS actually uses two old 18" drivers, the 19" is a misprint. There's far better drivers these days, including the later gen Aurasounds. The tumult absolutely blows the XS's drivers out of the water.

That actually makes more sense. The XS should use either the Seismic 8196 or the Aurasound 1808, then.

 

[MikeMike]

WOW SO much false information. to bad, the only person i know of on this board qualified enough to talk, is at ces, and i dont know if he would be able to respond.

ill see if i can get anyone to join this forum, just to talk in this personal thread, to try and dismiss the myth that smaller cone = tight bass.

MIKE

 

[glen]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Mackie HRS120 Active Subwoofer is one of the most flexible, responsive, and cost-effective active studio sub woofers on the market today. The HRS120 is perfectly suited for professional recording studios and film/video surround post-production facilities that require extremely accurate bass extension to 19Hz and below.

Don't you realise any driver can play to 19hz?
The point is can it play 19hz as loud as the music intends, or is it rolled offf 30db?
And, 19hz, is a poor goal.
I would AT least go one more octave lower to 10hz, reproducable at the level intended by the source.

 

[MikeMike]

ok, so i just decided to fully read this thread.

Nan0bug, ever heard of companies, like brax, tru technologies, U.S. amps, PPI, and MANY other amp companies. they ALL make amps for in car. the amps you named, are BB stuff, everything i just listed, will destroy those amps in terms or quality build, and power output. however, i still challenge you to tell me which amp is which on a SUB, now on tweets, and that, i believe their may be a difference, also, tube amps, for cars, are generally not PURE tube amps, yet they just use SOME of it is proccesed like a tube amp (i believe).

MIKE

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
ok, so i just decided to fully read this thread.

Nan0bug, ever heard of companies, like brax, tru technologies, U.S. amps, PPI, and MANY other amp companies. they ALL make amps for in car. the amps you named, are BB stuff, everything i just listed, will destroy those amps in terms or quality build, and power output. however, i still challenge you to tell me which amp is which on a SUB, now on tweets, and that, i believe their may be a difference, also, tube amps, for cars, are generally not PURE tube amps, yet they just use SOME of it is proccesed like a tube amp (i believe).

MIKE

again, part of this thread details that there are nto audible differences in properly designed amplifiers.

 

[NightCrawler]

Originally posted by: Apex
The XS actually uses two old 18" drivers, the 19" is a misprint. There's far better drivers these days, including the later gen Aurasounds. The tumult absolutely blows the XS's drivers out of the water.

LMAO....no it doesn't...the siesmic 8196 is still one the very best sounding subwoofers around and it comes in different flavors. One is designed for PA sound or live sound and another intended for HT use.

The tumult is ok but is really designed for a seal box when you look at the TS numbers. I really wouldn't be putting it into a vented box.

 

[ShaneN]

I like how you know what is the best sounding sub for everyone. I like the sound of my friend's 18 Resontant Engineering sub more than my other friend's 12 JL W6v2. Wait! How does that work? The 18 is bigger, doesn't that mean it sounds like crap? Uh, no.

And to the one person who talks about how he knows people who say stuff, who gives a rats butt? I mean come on, I don't care if you know Wayne Harris, or President Bush! Also, quoting a site that says a 15 is good for lows gets you no where. It didn't prove anything. All it said was that 15's are good for lows, but didn't say anything about how it can't hit highs, because they can! And who care's about studios, we aren't talking about a sub for a studio right now, so there goes half your arguments. And who is to define "fast?" What is a "fast" subwoofer? It might mean one thing to you, and another to the next person. Once you can prove your stuff, which will never happen, how about you keep your uninformed mind away from the New Reply button, because all your doing is making us lose more braincells everytime.

And as far as the amplifiers all sound the same, that is true. As long as you aren't clipping, or pushing the limits of the amplifier, they will sound the same. Period.

Unless you are comparing Best Buy brands, a 18" is just as "fast," "clean," and "detailed" as your puny eights provided they are both in the proper enclosure.

So far, the only person who actually is making any sense here is nourdmrolNMT1, keep up the informing of the uninformed ! If you don't want to listen to me or him, listen to Physics, it backs up everything he has said.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: NightCrawler

Originally posted by: Apex
The XS actually uses two old 18" drivers, the 19" is a misprint. There's far better drivers these days, including the later gen Aurasounds. The tumult absolutely blows the XS's drivers out of the water.

LMAO....no it doesn't...the siesmic 8196 is still one the very best sounding subwoofers around and it comes in different flavors. One is designed for PA sound or live sound and another intended for HT use.

The tumult is ok but is really designed for a seal box when you look at the TS numbers. I really wouldn't be putting it into a vented box.

A 3.5L VD is pretty mediocre these days, especially when you consider a cost-no-object sub. The 8196 has far less clean linear displacement that the Blueprint 18", the XXX RE, and other top 18" drivers. Heck, even the Stryke AV15 has 3.8L VD. The tumult has 5.1L, and works just fine with PR boxes, though I haven't seen ported. The XS is merely two good drivers in a very well made though underported box.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: NightCrawler

Originally posted by: Apex
The XS actually uses two old 18" drivers, the 19" is a misprint. There's far better drivers these days, including the later gen Aurasounds. The tumult absolutely blows the XS's drivers out of the water.

LMAO....no it doesn't...the siesmic 8196 is still one the very best sounding subwoofers around and it comes in different flavors. One is designed for PA sound or live sound and another intended for HT use.

The tumult is ok but is really designed for a seal box when you look at the TS numbers. I really wouldn't be putting it into a vented box.

A 3.5L VD is pretty mediocre these days, especially when you consider a cost-no-object sub. The 8196 has far less clean linear displacement that the Blueprint 18", the XXX RE, and other top 18" drivers. Heck, even the Stryke AV15 has 3.8L VD. The tumult has 5.1L, and works just fine with PR boxes, though I haven't seen ported. The XS is merely two good drivers in a very well made though underported box.

Vd doesn't always mean quality. Is the Electrovoice EVX-180B a crappy sub? It's only got 6.4mm of linear excursion.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: NightCrawler

Originally posted by: Apex
The XS actually uses two old 18" drivers, the 19" is a misprint. There's far better drivers these days, including the later gen Aurasounds. The tumult absolutely blows the XS's drivers out of the water.

LMAO....no it doesn't...the siesmic 8196 is still one the very best sounding subwoofers around and it comes in different flavors. One is designed for PA sound or live sound and another intended for HT use.

The tumult is ok but is really designed for a seal box when you look at the TS numbers. I really wouldn't be putting it into a vented box.

A 3.5L VD is pretty mediocre these days, especially when you consider a cost-no-object sub. The 8196 has far less clean linear displacement that the Blueprint 18", the XXX RE, and other top 18" drivers. Heck, even the Stryke AV15 has 3.8L VD. The tumult has 5.1L, and works just fine with PR boxes, though I haven't seen ported. The XS is merely two good drivers in a very well made though underported box.

Vd doesn't always mean quality. Is the Electrovoice EVX-180B a crappy sub? It's only got 6.4mm of linear excursion.

Vd is, of course, only one measurement, however it's one of the more important ones. In car terms, it probably equates to something like hp to weight ratio. Of course, there are other important factors. The EV 180b may not be a crappy sub, but compared to some of the other choices on the market, it's not most impressive. High Fs, low Xmax, high Vas. It's probably not the best choice for low frequencies.

 

[Wag]

Average size is 5".

 

[FoBoT]

18

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: ShaneN

So far, the only person who actually is making any sense here is nourdmrolNMT1, keep up the informing of the uninformed ! If you don't want to listen to me or him, listen to Physics, it backs up everything he has said.

Thanks for backin me and Glen.

 

[nan0bug]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
ok, so i just decided to fully read this thread.

Nan0bug, ever heard of companies, like brax, tru technologies, U.S. amps, PPI, and MANY other amp companies. they ALL make amps for in car. the amps you named, are BB stuff, everything i just listed, will destroy those amps in terms or quality build, and power output. however, i still challenge you to tell me which amp is which on a SUB, now on tweets, and that, i believe their may be a difference, also, tube amps, for cars, are generally not PURE tube amps, yet they just use SOME of it is proccesed like a tube amp (i believe).

MIKE

I haven't mentioned anything about amps in this whole thread. I suggest you touch up on your reading skills.

 

[nan0bug]

Originally posted by: ShaneN
I like how you know what is the best sounding sub for everyone. I like the sound of my friend's 18 Resontant Engineering sub more than my other friend's 12 JL W6v2. Wait! How does that work? The 18 is bigger, doesn't that mean it sounds like crap? Uh, no.

And to the one person who talks about how he knows people who say stuff, who gives a rats butt? I mean come on, I don't care if you know Wayne Harris, or President Bush! Also, quoting a site that says a 15 is good for lows gets you no where. It didn't prove anything. All it said was that 15's are good for lows, but didn't say anything about how it can't hit highs, because they can! And who care's about studios, we aren't talking about a sub for a studio right now, so there goes half your arguments. And who is to define "fast?" What is a "fast" subwoofer? It might mean one thing to you, and another to the next person. Once you can prove your stuff, which will never happen, how about you keep your uninformed mind away from the New Reply button, because all your doing is making us lose more braincells everytime.

And as far as the amplifiers all sound the same, that is true. As long as you aren't clipping, or pushing the limits of the amplifier, they will sound the same. Period.

Unless you are comparing Best Buy brands, a 18" is just as "fast," "clean," and "detailed" as your puny eights provided they are both in the proper enclosure.

So far, the only person who actually is making any sense here is nourdmrolNMT1, keep up the informing of the uninformed ! If you don't want to listen to me or him, listen to Physics, it backs up everything he has said.

Ok, since you guys can't read apparently, I'm going to say it one more time.

If all he cares about is 'thump thump' bass, then a 15" will be fine.

If he wants clarity, the ideal setup would be a 15" and two 8" subs. Then he will cover all ranges. In fact, either way, the IDEAL setup would be a 15" and two 8" subs.

A 15" will not have the clarity on the upper end of the bass range that an 8" will. Thats why smaller speakers are used for higher frequencies. Thats why you will never see a 15" midbass speaker. That's why tweeters are so tiny. The smaller the speaker, the better it is at hitting a higher range.

A 15" sub will not sound as clear at the 150-250hz range as an 8" sub. With demanding, rolling basslines, it will not reproduce the sound the way it was meant to be played. I suggest you pick up some old school drum and bass and compare it on a single 15" to when it's played on a system with a little more range.

Component speakers would round out that range just fine, but they will lack the 'oompf' that 8" subs will provide. Thats why I reccomended 8" subs as opposed to a 15" and components, since we're talking about BASS here.

As far as the studio argument, I think it holds a lot of weight. Everyone has been talking out their ass here, but either everyone is afraid to be proven wrong, or everyone has been proven wrong, because I still havent seen someone link to a studio with production credits that uses only 15" subwoofers for bass. I guarantee you the mackie 15" sub is in a proper enclosure. It better be for what it costs. Why isn't everyone using it all by itself if a 15" sub is so damn perfect? Why haven't I ever heard of a professional studio only using 15" subs for bass? Are you trying to tell me that the people who build these studios, these people who go to college to learn about this stuff, the people who the manufacturers listen to for feedback, are all miseducated because a couple car audio guys say so?

I think not.

 

[b0mbrman]

What application are you looking at (box, music, price range)? What mids are you gonna use them with?

 

[MikeMike]

ok, nanobug, i mistook you for fyelow. sorry, i was reading your post, or sumtin and confused myself.

the arguement here, was not about 150-250 hz range however, it was about sub frequencies, which in most vehicles, people use below 80hz, 100 for very few.

shane N you forgot shockwave, and one or 2 others. sorry guys.

some more...

None of these people seem to realize the fact that how a given cone mass can perform is *directly* related to the strength of the motor driving it. Looking at cone mass alone is completely irrelavent because it must be viewed in the context of the motor as well. A driver with a large moving mass (heavier cone) and a powerful motor will exert more control over cone motion than a lower moving mass (lighter cone) with a weak motor. A perfect example is there are numerous 15" or 18" woofers with qts lower than many 10" or 12" woofers, which indicates a higher degree of cone damping.

Also, the argument is usually made about lighter cones of smaller drivers delivering quicker transients... Which really isn't true. A smaller diameter driver also has to move signifigantly farther to deliver the same output as a larger diameter driver. Driving the cone farther means it is travelling faster. Considering that mass increases exponentially with velocity, a smaller cone movign a long distance would actually be harder to control than a large cone moving a small distance.

The comments about 15's dropping lower than 10's are wrong as well... Usual misinformation.

dependiing upon the motor used by each speaker, the 10 may be able to drop MUCH lower than a 15" same reason, you cant compare 2 different size subs. yes, an 8" with a strong, quick motor, for itself will be tighter, than that same motor, located on a 15". however, thats the reason different motors are available. (like cars, v8 vs. v6, one is meant for a bigger vehicle, to even out the playing field.)

yes, nanobug, the IDEAL car, has a sub/speaker of every size, covering their own specific ranges, but once you get up to their, you begin needing equipment out the a-hole to keep it sounding good. this thread was about a 10" vs. 12". a single, or pair, of subs, not about having to cross over multiple subs, with their own frequencies, and dealing with MANY different problems.

(i think im done)

MIKE

 

[ShaneN]

Ya, sorry for missing you other guys. I was getting annoyed at some people's ignorance.

Also, why the hell would a subwoofer playing higher than 100hz??? Subs aren't meant to go that high, and when you do, it becomes directional and you can no longer place the subwoofer behind you, but in front of you with perfect imaging. And, using a 15" AND 8" speakers is one of most beginner things I have ever heard. Talk about cancellation up the ass.

 

[Rogodin2]

Adire audio and SVS both make some killer drivers with high end software to design your enclosure-tuning is very important.

There are too many variables but to belive that smaller subs are necessary for "tight" bass is putting yourself in the "ignorant" catageory.

Most of you idiots in this thread are young people that have a little experience with car audio subs that are built cheaply (compared to hometheatre subs) and designed with cabin gain in mind, so please keep your inanities to yourselves.

I'm sick of you.

rogo

 

[Rogodin2]

"15" sub will not sound as clear at the 150-250hz range as an 8" sub."

With a frequency response of 150-250 your 8" woofer is NOT A SUB-it's a midbass.

A sub is designed for 80hz and lower.

I can't believe the drivel and lack of common sense and a consensus of terms-this forum never ceases to amaze me.

rogo

 

[Viperoni]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: ShaneN

So far, the only person who actually is making any sense here is nourdmrolNMT1, keep up the informing of the uninformed ! If you don't want to listen to me or him, listen to Physics, it backs up everything he has said.

Thanks for backin me and Glen.

Me too