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police-involved shooting in Kenosha, WI...unrest ensues

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Meghan54 said:
Well, maybe in another country. But not in America because we are so "exceptional."
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This is actually true. In our culture, physical contact between men is verboten outside of contact sports. Fear of being thought gay is sufficient that men would rather kill each other with a bullet than make bodily contact. Toxic masculinity is very much a real thing.
 
Jaskalas said:
Emotional is how I would describe the anti-reality mob that has formed here. Posters who apparently insist you can ignore guns drawn on you, ignore lawful commands, and then threaten the officers without consequence. Then turn the situation on its head and pretend the officers had zero justification for actions that are as common in law enforcement as is strapping a holster to their belt. Moving around all willy nilly and then reaching while guns are drawn on him, meant he was going to die.



And what is your counter claim, are you telling us that officers are not allowed to respond to threats?
I demonstrated a consistent policy of the suspect even flinching the wrong muscle and being shot for the threat that they posed based on the circumstances.
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The consequence should be an arrest. It may be a taser or a macing. It should be facing a court of law for resisting arrest or being sentenced by a jury of our peers.

It shouldn't be being shot 7 times in the back.
 
Jaskalas said:
When the suspect is reaching, the fine line between your death and his is a second, or less. They have no time.
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I expect the police to protect the public not the other way around. I expect them to hold fire in that situation until they know for certain the suspect is a threat. I expect them to use the least amount of force required to prevent that situation from arising.

Yes I expect the police to risk their lives at least as much as truck driver or garbage man. If training, pay, and hiring practices have to change to support this I’m fine paying for it.
 
Jaskalas said:
Emotional is how I would describe the anti-reality mob that has formed here. Posters who apparently insist you can ignore guns drawn on you, ignore lawful commands, and then threaten the officers without consequence. Then turn the situation on its head and pretend the officers had zero justification for actions that are as common in law enforcement as is strapping a holster to their belt. Moving around all willy nilly and then reaching while guns are drawn on him, meant he was going to die.



And what is your counter claim, are you telling us that officers are not allowed to respond to threats?
I demonstrated a consistent policy of the suspect even flinching the wrong muscle and being shot for the threat that they posed based on the circumstances.
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Non compliance is not a threat.
 
Jaskalas said:
And what is your counter claim, are you telling us that officers are not allowed to respond to threats?
I demonstrated a consistent policy of the suspect even flinching the wrong muscle and being shot for the threat that they posed based on the circumstances.
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Umm, you made a claim and I'm asking for facts to back it up. It's not on me to prove the opposite of your baseless claim. I never made a claim without backing anything up.

And your examples are all extremely controversial cases that got national attention because of the outcome and how poorly the outcome was. I'd hardly use those as examples to try and back your baseless claim about training.

Clearly you don't know what police are trained to do or else you would have provided some proof by now.
 
pete6032 said:
Don't these cops have pepper spray or a taser? That seems like a much better solution here.
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www.cnn.com

Wisconsin police shoot Black man as children watch from a vehicle, attorney says

Two Kenosha, Wisconsin, police officers are on leave Monday as state authorities investigate why a Black man was shot multiple times in the back as he entered the driver's side door of an SUV, officials said.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

The dispatcher's report of shots fired comes about five minutes after the initial report. According to Crump, police had already used a Taser on Blake before the shooting.
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His lawyer says they already used a taser before the shooting, meaning before the video.

I'm going to wait before deciding on this one.
 
Homerboy said:
There was a overnight car theft a few blocks from my house on Friday. I was talking to my neighbors (whom I love and are generally good and caring people) and they were saying "In today's environment, how do they catch those guys? I mean if they are running, you can't shoot them or anything with the way things are now"

I was dumbfounded. I had to step back and explain to them - passionately - that shooting a car thief wasn't, isn't and never would be the right reaction. Regardless of "the way things are now". They honestly though that shooting somebody running was the normal reaction but due to current events that reaction was now off the table.
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Is the problem that these people keep seeing cops on TV shows and movies doing that exact thing? When reading your post, countless media popped into mind where I recalled a cop pulling a gun and yelling something along the lines of "STOP!" to a fleeing suspect. I think you could chalk that up to a few different aspects:
  1. Inexperience: Most people have no idea how policing works, and even if they do, it may differ between areas.
  2. Repetition: If you keep seeing the same incorrect thing, how long will it take to just accept it?
  3. Faux Authenticity: I think this is something that's really on the TV shows and movies. They try to look and act real at times, but they'll happily interject something off-color to simply ratchet up the suspense. Essentially, what they do can sometimes seem plausible at worst.
#1 creates holes in someone's understanding, #3 helps fill those holes, and even if #3 only feels plausible, #2 can cause people to finally believe it.

An example of all of this is that Nathan Fillion show, "The Rookie". I've caught myself wondering if the terminology and stuff that they use on the show is legit or if it's "just for good TV".
 
Jaskalas said:
I am here telling you how it has always been. That is my reaction to something I find utterly astonishing, and that is seeing the reactions from people here who think the officers had no reason. On that video I see plenty of reason. More than other situations, because the suspect had time to respond properly. Lot of folks are not given that opportunity.

Reaching and operating a vehicle are threats. It is a very bad idea to ignore officers and threaten them.
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These officers were never threatened. I'm sure they'll claim that they "felt threatened" or were "fearful for their life" but what I see from the video is that the police failed to use other methods to stop him. Failure to comply is NOT a threat without other direct actions. It's nothing but a scapegoat for excessive force.


UNCjigga said:
I half expected one or more of our resident police use of force experts to complain that these 3 officers were afraid of using physical force to restrain suspects for fear of choking them to death in this current climate—so shooting him to death was the only option.

“A chokehold may have saved this man!”
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See Jaskalas' posts. Enjoy.
 
woolfe9998 said:
www.cnn.com

Wisconsin police shoot Black man as children watch from a vehicle, attorney says

Two Kenosha, Wisconsin, police officers are on leave Monday as state authorities investigate why a Black man was shot multiple times in the back as he entered the driver's side door of an SUV, officials said.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com



His lawyer says they already used a taser before the shooting, meaning before the video.

I'm going to wait before deciding on this one.
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So they tased him and the three officers still weren’t able to get him under control and yet when he was casually walking back to his vehicle the cops just followed him and he was such a danger that one cop, while pointing a gun at the guy, thought it was safe enough to tug on his shirt?

Sorry, I’m not buying it.
 
I don't know enough info here to give a good opinion on this incident. I will list out what I've been able to garner. Whether it is true or not time will tell. Here is what I have found out. Again I am not saying these are the facts yet. News seems to be very spotty on this one so far.

1) Jacob was at a scene of a fight of two girls trying to break them up.
2) Cops were called and arrived on scene after the fight had stopped but everyone still around.
3) They ran his plates and saw he had an arrest warrant out.
4) They went to grab Jacob to arrest for the warrant. Instead he shouldered past them and pushed them out of the way.
5) The cops tried to use a tazer on him, but he completely ignored the taser and pulled out a knife.
6) Jacob walks back to his vehicle with knife in hand before putting it back in his pocket. Cops already have guns drawn and are pulling on him trying to get him to comply.
7) Jacob gets to his car and leans in with one cop still pulling on his shirt. At this point that cop fires. He fires 3 times, there is a little movement, and then he fires 4 more times.

In the video it is hard to tell if Jacob is holding a knife and as always these videos start late into the incident. There is a point as he is rounding the car that it looks like something is flashing in his hand as he puts his hand near his pocket. I am not saying this is a knife or anything. Could be keys. I don't know. A few more notes about Jacob.

He was a registered sex offender. Had been sent to jail twice for assaulting police officers and drew a gun on one in the past. He had an arrest warrant on him but I am unable to find the details for what. Again these are what I've seen stated about his past and don't know how much of it is relevant to case even if true. If the cops ran his plates when they arrived on scene, they would more than likely know the details of his criminal past.

If what I have read is true then it is a tragic death, but all on Jacob. Again we still don't know all the details, so I am reserving judgement still.
 
ivwshane said:
So they tased him and the three officers still weren’t able to get him under control and yet when he was casually walking back to his vehicle the cops just followed him and he was such a danger that one cop, while pointing a gun at the guy, thought it was safe enough to tug on his shirt?

Sorry, I’m not buying it.
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Not "buying" anything either. I just want to know more.
 
Holy fuck! Stupid cops...just so infuriating that it still happens. You'd think maybe, just maybe, they fucking think for a bit before shooting. No defense of this.

Feel so bad for the father and his children.
 
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