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Pilot who dropped bomb on Hiroshima died.

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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
1
0
I don't blame him, because he was doing his job. But how could he not feel remorse for all those deaths?
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
Wait what? Lies
Yep, the history books that our high schoolers (and non-history college majors) read are full of misinformation. We also provoked them by limiting their imperialist growth in the 30s.

Rogo
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Administrator
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
162
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: foghorn67
Either that or Operation Olympic, losses on both sides would have been even more catastrophic. It was going to be a 1,000,000 man invasion.
Tokyo fire raids killed more.
And those numbers ignore the thousands of Chinese that were dying daily.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,434
84
91
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: foghorn67
Either that or Operation Olympic, losses on both sides would have been even more catastrophic. It was going to be a 1,000,000 man invasion.
Tokyo fire raids killed more.
Yeah. It's just too bad that isn't true, but it's a nice easy way for the US to keep its morality.

Dwight Eisenhower, president of the United States and Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in World War II:

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'.
Not really appropriate to start an argument in this thread... but check out The Last Mission: The Secret History of World War II's Final Battle.

Even after the bombs were dropped there was a movement to prevent surrender and inflict mass casualties on allied forces.

It is easy to sit back and look at history and decide what should have been done... its another thing to make those decisions when hundreds of thousands of more lives were on the line after 4 years of war and 460,000 U.S. dead. Not even taking in to account the world wide death toll.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,902
10
81
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Wait what? Lies
Yep, the history books that our high schoolers (and non-history college majors) read are full of misinformation. We also provoked them by limiting their imperialist growth in the 30s.

Rogo
We all got together and decided that the imperial age had ended, and they didn't get the memo. :lips:
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
30 year old colonel? Wow.

I guess we can make all the comments we want, but none of us will ever know what it was like to be in his shoes. You take 80K lives for your country...that's a hell of a moral weight to have on your shoulders until you die.
But, from the sounds of it, it looked like we chose the right guy.
Fortunately for us the country was full of the "right guys" at that time.

RIP
 

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
I think that any course of action that required the intentional killing of an innocent person is horrible.

I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a mistake and they never should have happened.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
81
Originally posted by: BigToque
I think that any course of action that required the intentional killing of an innocent person is horrible.

I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a mistake and they never should have happened.
yeap we should have attacked Japan mainland to end war. that way less people would have died...






:laugh:
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
4
0
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Wait what? Lies
Yep, the history books that our high schoolers (and non-history college majors) read are full of misinformation. We also provoked them by limiting their imperialist growth in the 30s.

Rogo
I assume you're being facetious, but the internet's bad at conveying inflection.

Originally posted by: BigToque
I think that any course of action that required the intentional killing of an innocent person is horrible.

I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a mistake and they never should have happened.
By that logic, the US should never have entered WW2, and the British should have surrendered to Germany instead of dropping bombs on their factories.
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
I know more than you can imagine jagec. I'm not being facetious.

This pilot was used, just as both my grandfathers were, to make manifest the superior weapons capability (strategic atomic bombs) of the United States of America. If you'd like to argue that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki put an end to the war please feel free to post your argument.

Rogo
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
206
106
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Wait what? Lies
Yep, the history books that our high schoolers (and non-history college majors) read are full of misinformation. We also provoked them by limiting their imperialist growth in the 30s.

Rogo
Originally posted by: BigToque
I think that any course of action that required the intentional killing of an innocent person is horrible.

I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a mistake and they never should have happened.
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Either that or Operation Olympic, losses on both sides would have been even more catastrophic. It was going to be a 1,000,000 man invasion.
That is a load of historical bullshit.

We had been firebombing the shit out of Japan prior to dropping the nuclear bombs. Japanese diplomats were throwing out peace treaties.

Rogo
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: foghorn67
Either that or Operation Olympic, losses on both sides would have been even more catastrophic. It was going to be a 1,000,000 man invasion.
Tokyo fire raids killed more.
Yeah. It's just too bad that isn't true, but it's a nice easy way for the US to keep its morality.

Dwight Eisenhower, president of the United States and Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in World War II:

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'.
Should'a, would'a, could'a. There might be a half dozen people on this forum that were alive when these bombs were dropped, much less adult and discerning. We weren't there, we don't really know what happened, but we do know that almost the entire world agreed upon what did happen shortly after it happened and the people that were there were still alive. If you have conspiracy theories, ok, but take it to P&N. These kinds of threads are posted in OT specifically to avoid the flamebait and stupid arguments that are expected over there.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
17
81

Here's hoping (probably in vain) that that will have been the last time nuclear weapons ever make a showing during wartime.


War kind of sucks - the people who want it are often farthest from the line of fire. Those who just want to be left alone and go about their lives are turned into collateral, or bargaining chips. Such has it always been throughout history.

In any case, large scale warfare is just flat out unfortunate, unfortunate that it comes to that, unfortunate that leaders are willing to put their own civilians in harm's way to achieve their own ends, unfortunate that civilians can at times be convinced that their cause or course of action is the only just one. And for our species, war is just a bit embarrassing. Hunger for power and dominance, for what? So history will remember you as a destructive individual? Oooh yay.

"The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light." - Carl Sagan
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Addressing the issue of killing nearly 180,000 civilians is, of course, a difficult one. The atomic bomb issue has been examined countless times and from hundreds of perspectives. Part of the answer lies in the argument laid out in this thread. Estimates at the time indicated that a mainland invasion of Japan would have been far more costly for all sides involved. Of course, this explanation cannot possibly be our justification simply because it is a hypothetical. There was also a chance the war could have ended without another casualty.

I do not believe we can simply push the issue under the table by saying something like "hindsight is 20/20." Of course it is, but that doesn't make the decision to drop the bombs inherently okay, morally defensible, or even correct. People make mistakes, and historians should be allowed to say so. I don't think Japan was on the 'verge' of surrendering, but I certainly think that any sort of demonstration of the weapon that was about to be unleashed on their population would have pushed them towards a peace treaty.

Others have pointed to the high number of casualties suffered by the Japanese at the hands of the US during non-nuclear bombings. The details of the strategic bombing campaign are atrocious and morally repulsive. Not only was the US intentionally bombing civilian homes, but the US air force went as far as to build scale replicas of parts of Japanese cities to understand how to more effectively bomb them and how to cause maximum damage.

From reading testimonials, what pushed the Japanese government to finally surrender was the awesome power of the bombs. The fact a city was demolished wasn't particularly astounding to them, what terrified them was that one plane did it. If the US had offered to demonstrate one of the weapons with Japanese observers perhaps they would have seen such awesome power and chosen to end the war before the US needed to load the Enola Gay and fly over any city. Even if they hadn't agreed to surrender, the US still would have had one bomb to use on them.

What we also have to consider here is Roosevelt's role in the end of the war. He declared that the US would seek unconditional surrender from both Germany and Japan. In the past twenty years he has drawn a lot of criticism for this statement first because it was made without the knowledge of Russia or Britain and second because it probably prolonged the war in Europe and had an undetermined effect on Japan. By seeking the full capitulation of the enemy, the US left no room for negotiation and only left her enemies a very embarrassing option.
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
Should'a, would'a, could'a. There might be a half dozen people on this forum that were alive when these bombs were dropped, much less adult and discerning. We weren't there, we don't really know what happened, but we do know that almost the entire world agreed upon what did happen shortly after it happened and the people that were there were still alive. If you have conspiracy theories, ok, but take it to P&N. These kinds of threads are posted in OT specifically to avoid the flamebait and stupid arguments that are expected over there.
At least you have to read about the history of the machine that supports your life lad.

Take a fucking leap.

Rogo
 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,555
3
81
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
30 year old colonel? Wow.

I guess we can make all the comments we want, but none of us will ever know what it was like to be in his shoes. You take 80K lives for your country...that's a hell of a moral weight to have on your shoulders until you die.
But, from the sounds of it, it looked like we chose the right guy.
Fortunately for us the country was full of the "right guys" at that time.

RIP
:thumbsup:
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
Blinderbomber

That's a very nice quote you've posted. I've read it before but I can't recall the author.

Rogo
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
206
106
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Should'a, would'a, could'a. There might be a half dozen people on this forum that were alive when these bombs were dropped, much less adult and discerning. We weren't there, we don't really know what happened, but we do know that almost the entire world agreed upon what did happen shortly after it happened and the people that were there were still alive. If you have conspiracy theories, ok, but take it to P&N. These kinds of threads are posted in OT specifically to avoid the flamebait and stupid arguments that are expected over there.
At least you have to read about the history of the machine that supports your life lad.

Take a fucking leap.

Rogo
:confused: I don't know what you're talking about, but I think you're implying I'm ignorant of history. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth, I was one of the weirdos that actually liked it in school, and am still taking history in college. Just because I know when and where discussions are appropriate doesn't mean I don't want to have the discussions at all.

Edit: And no I won't banter back and forth if you make this thread in P&N, that place is nuts and nothing is ever accomplished in it. Not to mention I have better things to do than argue hypothetical scenarios, such as sleep, work, class, work, and a small research project, in that order.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,979
3
71
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
30 year old colonel? Wow.

I guess we can make all the comments we want, but none of us will ever know what it was like to be in his shoes. You take 80K lives for your country...that's a hell of a moral weight to have on your shoulders until you die.
It wasn't just him. He wad flying...what about the bombardier? You know...the guy who drops the hatches...
And the 12 other people.

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
If I killed 80,000 people for any reason it would haunt me for the rest of my life. Deep down I would not be able to completely justify the deaths or absolve myself of guilt
Well, that's why they didn't pick you, now, right? ;)



But at the same time...comments like these make me pause and wonder if people don't think things through before posting...or talking.
 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,555
3
81
Originally posted by: destrekor
Originally posted by: foghorn67
Either that or Operation Olympic, losses on both sides would have been even more catastrophic. It was going to be a 1,000,000 man invasion.
Tokyo fire raids killed more.
not to mention that all the bombing runs over German towns killed WAY more than the combined death toll from the A-bombs AND tokyo fire raids combined. And that would have just been the casualties from US bombing runs. Britain committed their own bombing runs that killed quite a few more too, although not sure of the estimated total death tolls.


it was an honor having that man as a citizen, and to still have the weight on his shoulders till this day shows he was an honorable man who still had a conscious. Probably one of those things you just couldn't block out of your memory, no matter how hard you tried.
Excellant point. Six million jews died under the wrath of Adolf Hitler.
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
I don't know what you're talking about, but I think you're implying I'm ignorant of history. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth, I was one of the weirdos that actually liked it in school, and am still taking history in college. Just because I know when and where discussions are appropriate doesn't mean I don't want to have the discussions at all.
Your initial reply implied that we cannot understand history without the recollections of first person experience in real time. We can and do know what happened by the use of 3 mediums. If your implication was misunderstood then make it clear.

Taking 101, 201, and 301 courses at a college does not make you a 'lover' of history.

Rogo

 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,555
3
81
Originally posted by: TehMac
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
30 year old colonel? Wow.

I guess we can make all the comments we want, but none of us will ever know what it was like to be in his shoes. You take 80K lives for your country...that's a hell of a moral weight to have on your shoulders until you die.
It wasn't just him. He wad flying...what about the bombardier? You know...the guy who drops the hatches...
And the 12 other people.

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
If I killed 80,000 people for any reason it would haunt me for the rest of my life. Deep down I would not be able to completely justify the deaths or absolve myself of guilt
Well, that's why they didn't pick you, now, right? ;)



But at the same time...comments like these make me pause and wonder if people don't think things through before posting...or talking.
Taking one life is no different than taking 1,000,000 lives. So if you curse him based on numbers then you are spitting in the face of all war veterans. You should not deserve freedom, but because of them you will live in it anyways.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,427
10
81
Originally posted by: jjsole
Much more shameful than one man dropping an atom bomb on 80,000 people is the impact our country has had over the years, directly and indirectly, in aiding nuclear proliferation in different parts of the world.
Every time I see you nik for some reason my brain reads it as "jizzhole", then I read your post and I understand why.
 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,555
3
81
His family does not care for people doing this, Paul said he did not want a headstone so people would not gather around his grave in protest. so lets acknowledge his wishes, stop politicizing this thread now and remember Paul Tibbets. May he REST IN PEACE.


 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
Every time I see you nik for some reason my brain reads it as "jizzhole", then I read your post and I understand why.
Every time I read your name I always think it's 'assmonkey'.

We're talking about a 'hero' and you're calling people names. Grow up lad.

Rogo
 

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