Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,830
- 3
- 0
I don't blame him, because he was doing his job. But how could he not feel remorse for all those deaths?
Yep, the history books that our high schoolers (and non-history college majors) read are full of misinformation. We also provoked them by limiting their imperialist growth in the 30s.
Rogo
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
rudder
Lifer
- Nov 9, 2000
- 19,441
- 85
- 91
Not really appropriate to start an argument in this thread... but check out The Last Mission: The Secret History of World War II's Final Battle.
Even after the bombs were dropped there was a movement to prevent surrender and inflict mass casualties on allied forces.
It is easy to sit back and look at history and decide what should have been done... its another thing to make those decisions when hundreds of thousands of more lives were on the line after 4 years of war and 460,000 U.S. dead. Not even taking in to account the world wide death toll.
The Boston Dangler
Lifer
- Mar 10, 2005
- 14,647
- 2
- 0
Originally posted by: Linflas
Fortunately for us the country was full of the "right guys" at that time.
RIP
I think that any course of action that required the intentional killing of an innocent person is horrible.
I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a mistake and they never should have happened.
I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a mistake and they never should have happened.
I assume you're being facetious, but the internet's bad at conveying inflection.
By that logic, the US should never have entered WW2, and the British should have surrendered to Germany instead of dropping bombs on their factories.
I know more than you can imagine jagec. I'm not being facetious.
This pilot was used, just as both my grandfathers were, to make manifest the superior weapons capability (strategic atomic bombs) of the United States of America. If you'd like to argue that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki put an end to the war please feel free to post your argument.
Rogo
This pilot was used, just as both my grandfathers were, to make manifest the superior weapons capability (strategic atomic bombs) of the United States of America. If you'd like to argue that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki put an end to the war please feel free to post your argument.
Rogo
Ruptga
Lifer
- Aug 3, 2006
- 10,247
- 207
- 106
Should'a, would'a, could'a. There might be a half dozen people on this forum that were alive when these bombs were dropped, much less adult and discerning. We weren't there, we don't really know what happened, but we do know that almost the entire world agreed upon what did happen shortly after it happened and the people that were there were still alive. If you have conspiracy theories, ok, but take it to P&N. These kinds of threads are posted in OT specifically to avoid the flamebait and stupid arguments that are expected over there.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,599
- 19
- 81
Here's hoping (probably in vain) that that will have been the last time nuclear weapons ever make a showing during wartime.
War kind of sucks - the people who want it are often farthest from the line of fire. Those who just want to be left alone and go about their lives are turned into collateral, or bargaining chips. Such has it always been throughout history.
In any case, large scale warfare is just flat out unfortunate, unfortunate that it comes to that, unfortunate that leaders are willing to put their own civilians in harm's way to achieve their own ends, unfortunate that civilians can at times be convinced that their cause or course of action is the only just one. And for our species, war is just a bit embarrassing. Hunger for power and dominance, for what? So history will remember you as a destructive individual? Oooh yay.
"The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light." - Carl Sagan
BeauJangles
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2001
- 13,941
- 1
- 0
Addressing the issue of killing nearly 180,000 civilians is, of course, a difficult one. The atomic bomb issue has been examined countless times and from hundreds of perspectives. Part of the answer lies in the argument laid out in this thread. Estimates at the time indicated that a mainland invasion of Japan would have been far more costly for all sides involved. Of course, this explanation cannot possibly be our justification simply because it is a hypothetical. There was also a chance the war could have ended without another casualty.
I do not believe we can simply push the issue under the table by saying something like "hindsight is 20/20." Of course it is, but that doesn't make the decision to drop the bombs inherently okay, morally defensible, or even correct. People make mistakes, and historians should be allowed to say so. I don't think Japan was on the 'verge' of surrendering, but I certainly think that any sort of demonstration of the weapon that was about to be unleashed on their population would have pushed them towards a peace treaty.
Others have pointed to the high number of casualties suffered by the Japanese at the hands of the US during non-nuclear bombings. The details of the strategic bombing campaign are atrocious and morally repulsive. Not only was the US intentionally bombing civilian homes, but the US air force went as far as to build scale replicas of parts of Japanese cities to understand how to more effectively bomb them and how to cause maximum damage.
From reading testimonials, what pushed the Japanese government to finally surrender was the awesome power of the bombs. The fact a city was demolished wasn't particularly astounding to them, what terrified them was that one plane did it. If the US had offered to demonstrate one of the weapons with Japanese observers perhaps they would have seen such awesome power and chosen to end the war before the US needed to load the Enola Gay and fly over any city. Even if they hadn't agreed to surrender, the US still would have had one bomb to use on them.
What we also have to consider here is Roosevelt's role in the end of the war. He declared that the US would seek unconditional surrender from both Germany and Japan. In the past twenty years he has drawn a lot of criticism for this statement first because it was made without the knowledge of Russia or Britain and second because it probably prolonged the war in Europe and had an undetermined effect on Japan. By seeking the full capitulation of the enemy, the US left no room for negotiation and only left her enemies a very embarrassing option.
I do not believe we can simply push the issue under the table by saying something like "hindsight is 20/20." Of course it is, but that doesn't make the decision to drop the bombs inherently okay, morally defensible, or even correct. People make mistakes, and historians should be allowed to say so. I don't think Japan was on the 'verge' of surrendering, but I certainly think that any sort of demonstration of the weapon that was about to be unleashed on their population would have pushed them towards a peace treaty.
Others have pointed to the high number of casualties suffered by the Japanese at the hands of the US during non-nuclear bombings. The details of the strategic bombing campaign are atrocious and morally repulsive. Not only was the US intentionally bombing civilian homes, but the US air force went as far as to build scale replicas of parts of Japanese cities to understand how to more effectively bomb them and how to cause maximum damage.
From reading testimonials, what pushed the Japanese government to finally surrender was the awesome power of the bombs. The fact a city was demolished wasn't particularly astounding to them, what terrified them was that one plane did it. If the US had offered to demonstrate one of the weapons with Japanese observers perhaps they would have seen such awesome power and chosen to end the war before the US needed to load the Enola Gay and fly over any city. Even if they hadn't agreed to surrender, the US still would have had one bomb to use on them.
What we also have to consider here is Roosevelt's role in the end of the war. He declared that the US would seek unconditional surrender from both Germany and Japan. In the past twenty years he has drawn a lot of criticism for this statement first because it was made without the knowledge of Russia or Britain and second because it probably prolonged the war in Europe and had an undetermined effect on Japan. By seeking the full capitulation of the enemy, the US left no room for negotiation and only left her enemies a very embarrassing option.
At least you have to read about the history of the machine that supports your life lad.
Take a fucking leap.
Rogo
Blinderbomber
That's a very nice quote you've posted. I've read it before but I can't recall the author.
Rogo
That's a very nice quote you've posted. I've read it before but I can't recall the author.
Rogo
Ruptga
Lifer
- Aug 3, 2006
- 10,247
- 207
- 106
I don't know what you're talking about, but I think you're implying I'm ignorant of history. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth, I was one of the weirdos that actually liked it in school, and am still taking history in college. Just because I know when and where discussions are appropriate doesn't mean I don't want to have the discussions at all.Edit: And no I won't banter back and forth if you make this thread in P&N, that place is nuts and nothing is ever accomplished in it. Not to mention I have better things to do than argue hypothetical scenarios, such as sleep, work, class, work, and a small research project, in that order.
TehMac
Diamond Member
- Aug 18, 2006
- 9,979
- 3
- 71
It wasn't just him. He wad flying...what about the bombardier? You know...the guy who drops the hatches...
And the 12 other people.
Well, that's why they didn't pick you, now, right?
But at the same time...comments like these make me pause and wonder if people don't think things through before posting...or talking.
Googer
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 12,571
- 4
- 81
Originally posted by: destrekor
not to mention that all the bombing runs over German towns killed WAY more than the combined death toll from the A-bombs AND tokyo fire raids combined. And that would have just been the casualties from US bombing runs. Britain committed their own bombing runs that killed quite a few more too, although not sure of the estimated total death tolls.
it was an honor having that man as a citizen, and to still have the weight on his shoulders till this day shows he was an honorable man who still had a conscious. Probably one of those things you just couldn't block out of your memory, no matter how hard you tried.
Excellant point. Six million jews died under the wrath of Adolf Hitler.
Your initial reply implied that we cannot understand history without the recollections of first person experience in real time. We can and do know what happened by the use of 3 mediums. If your implication was misunderstood then make it clear.
Taking 101, 201, and 301 courses at a college does not make you a 'lover' of history.
Rogo
Googer
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 12,571
- 4
- 81
Originally posted by: TehMac
It wasn't just him. He wad flying...what about the bombardier? You know...the guy who drops the hatches...
And the 12 other people.
Well, that's why they didn't pick you, now, right?
But at the same time...comments like these make me pause and wonder if people don't think things through before posting...or talking.
Taking one life is no different than taking 1,000,000 lives. So if you curse him based on numbers then you are spitting in the face of all war veterans. You should not deserve freedom, but because of them you will live in it anyways.
Every time I see you nik for some reason my brain reads it as "jizzhole", then I read your post and I understand why.
Every time I read your name I always think it's 'assmonkey'.
We're talking about a 'hero' and you're calling people names. Grow up lad.
Rogo
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 9K
-
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 7K
-
Facebook
Twitter