[pcper] frame metering review 690 vs. 7970 CF vs. Titan

[Fx1]

There is a difference between responding to something you see, and trying to track something with your mouse. It does feel sluggish when you move your mouse with v-sync on, especially with a 60hz computer. This can cause you to have a harder time tracking a target. You will find the mouse is always slightly behind where you want it to go, and when you stop it over shoots slightly. Granted, it may not be huge, but it is there.

To add to this, some people can get sick as a result of this latency. I get sick from this latency when my FPS are lower than 80 FPS, I'll get sick after a certain amount of time. At 30 FPS, I get sick in 5 mins. At 60 FPS, I last 30-60 mins and at 80+ fps, it goes away. This is due to latency and the sluggish feeling it has at lower FPS.

Due to my problem, I have a high end computer, and a 120hz monitor. Together, it greatly improves my experience.

If this claimed major problem with input latency makes you sick then screen tearing must seriously mess you up.

Seriously how far can your mouse go in 1/60th of a second?

 

[bystander36]

If this claimed major problem with input latency makes you sick then screen tearing must seriously mess you up.

What does screen tearing have to do with latency?

Latency causes my mind to think something is wrong, because what my hand is doing isn't matching up with what I see. It is very similar to how sea sickness gets people. If you are in a boat and the water has you moving up and down, but the boat appears stationary, you get sea sick, but if you look at land or the horizon, your mind recognizes the boat is moving up and down with the swells of the ocean and don't get sick. The same applies to video games with poor latency.

Look up simulator sickness. A lot of people have it, though there are a number of reasons people get it, and it is not entirely clear what causes it, but I learned in the last few years that latency causes it for me.

The point isn't so much about my sickness though. It is the point that our body and mind can recognize the difference between having an addition 8ms of latency. For me it is more pronounced than most.

 

[Fx1]

What does screen tearing have to do with latency?

Latency causes my mind to think something is wrong, because what my hand is doing isn't matching up with what I see. It is very similar to how sea sickness gets people. If you are in a boat and the water has you moving up and down, but the boat appears stationary, you get sea sick, but if you look at land or the horizon, your mind recognizes the boat is moving up and down with the swells of the ocean and don't get sick. The same applies to video games with poor latency.

Look up simulator sickness. A lot of people have it, though there are a number of reasons people get it, and it is not entirely clear what causes it, but I learned in the last few years that latency causes it for me.

The point isn't so much about my sickness though. It is the point that our body and mind can recognize the difference between having an addition 8ms of latency. For me it is more pronounced than most.

Because if 8ms of latency can make you sick then the screen tearing all over the place must look like a house of horrors to you...

You realise that there is input lag in the mouse and the screen? Screens can vary hugely... what about GTG response time?

All these can have an effect on input and control.

What about games? Some games have 50ms and others such as Fallout 3 have 150ms.

So basically what im saying is...

Bull shit.

 

[Wall Street]

I played 6 hours BF3 today with all 3 settings and the 2 worst things i noticed were screen tearing was seriously bad with it off and 60 fps sync was laggy and with it on at 59 FPS cap i had no problems with unresponsive mouse input.

My FPS was solid 59 FPS where as on the Vsync with no cap it flickered between 57 and 60 which says to me something else is going on there.

Did you try 125 FPS cap? In quakelive I can't see tearing at this framerate unless I shake my mouse side to side on across the pad. Of course, it framerates fall, tears become more noticeable.

 

[bystander36]

Because if 8ms of latency can make you sick then the screen tearing all over the place must look like a house of horrors to you...

You realise that there is input lag in the mouse and the screen? Screens can vary hugely... what about GTG response time?

All these can have an effect on input and control.

What about games? Some games have 50ms and others such as Fallout 3 have 150ms.

So basically what im saying is...

Bull shit.

I take it you don't recognize that you are not the center of the universe. Look up simulator sickness (there are tons of sites all with different causes).

I also made sure I did not say that more than 8ms causes me latency issues. I said the difference of 8ms causes me issues, and no game has 150ms of latency on the mouse that I've ever played. Remember, internet latency is not a factor on what you see. That happens between your client and server and where others appear on your screen, but your mouse movements and how long it takes to display is all client side.

I'm not sure how much latency there is between a mouse move and what is displayed, but I've slowly improved my parts to reduce it with a 1ms poll rate (1000hz) mouse, a 2ms input latency monitor and end graphics cards and I reduce settings to make sure I never go below 60 FPS and shoot for over 80.

 

[Fx1]

I take it you don't recognize that you are not the center of the universe. Look up simulator sickness (there are tons of sites all with different causes).

I also made sure I did not say that more than 8ms causes me latency issues. I said the difference of 8ms causes me issues, and no game has 150ms of latency on the mouse that I've ever played. Remember, internet latency is not a factor on what you see. That happens between your client and server and where others appear on your screen, but your mouse movements and how long it takes to display is all client side.

I'm not sure how much latency there is between a mouse move and what is displayed, but I've slowly improved my parts to reduce it with a 1ms poll rate (1000hz), a 2ms input latency monitor and end graphics cards and I reduce settings to make sure I never go below 60 FPS and shoot for over 80.

You have never played a Bethesda title then have you.

FOV, Motion blur and poor eye sight are more likely to cause your sickness problem.

It amazes me that you claim to have this nailed down to input lag caused by Vsync.

Nothing is instant where PC gaming is concerned and blaming 16ms of input lag for your problem doesnt sound plausible.

 

[bystander36]

You have never played a Bethesda title then have you.

FOV, Motion blur and poor eye sight are more likely to cause your sickness problem.

It amazes me that you claim to have this nailed down to input lag caused by Vsync.

Nothing is instant where PC gaming is concerned and blaming 16ms of input lag for your problem doesnt sound plausible.

Here is something written by John Carmack you might find enlightening:
http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2013/02/john-carmacks-latency-mitigation-strategies/

“Virtual reality (VR) is one of the most demanding human-in-the-loop applications from a latency standpoint. The latency between the physical movement of a user’s head and updated photons from a head mounted display reaching their eyes is one of the most critical factors in providing a high quality experience.
“Human sensory systems can detect very small relative delays in parts of the visual or, especially, audio fields, but when absolute delays are below approximately 20 milliseconds they are generally imperceptible. Interactive 3D systems today typically have latencies that are several times that figure, but alternate configurations of the same hardware components can allow that target to be reached.

As you can see, it is recognized that we can perceive the difference down to a total of 20ms (though that is roughing it I'm sure).

And yes, Skyrim requires 80+ FPS to be fluid. I can do 60 FPS, but I have to take frequent breaks. There is also a fix for the mouse input lag. I turn off motion blur. FoV doesn't really affect me.

Here is another claiming 7ms-16ms is needed for acceptable latency in VR systems: http://www.develop-online.net/news/42868/Valve-Low-latency-fundamental-to-virtual-reality

1st person games with a mouse are very similar in that way. It sounds like it is even more critical with the occulus type of VR.

 

[Fx1]

Here is something written by John Carmack you might find enlightening:
http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2013/02/john-carmacks-latency-mitigation-strategies/

As you can see, it is recognized that we can perceive the difference down to a total of 20ms (though that is roughing it I'm sure).



And yes, Skyrim requires 80+ FPS to be fluid. I can do 60 FPS, but I have to take frequent breaks. There is also a fix for the mouse input lag. I turn off motion blur. FoV doesn't really affect me.

How does 80 FPS in Skyrim work for you? notice anything odd happening?

 

[bystander36]

How does 80 FPS in Skyrim work for you? notice anything odd happening?

I actually get 120 FPS most the time. 80 FPS is just what I shoot for in any game. I just loaded up Skyrim at my last settings to check, and I'm at 120 fps on a 120hz monitor.

I usually play with adaptive v-sync btw, not that it causes me to get sick with tearing. Before I got a 120hz monitor, I couldn't play with v-sync and not get sick. The 120hz monitor changed things for me, and allows me to use adaptive v-sync or regular v-sync.

I'm not saying it is quite as smooth as without any v-sync, but I'm not a competitive gamer. I take the road of balance of good looks and not getting me sick.

 

[bystander36]

Oh, btw, a sluggish mouse pointer is not an issue. It is only a problem in 1st person view where turning with a mouse is sluggish.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Skyrim's engine has issues when it runs over 80fps. Lots of problems with flicker and the NPC models jumping around.

 

[Wall Street]

How does 80 FPS in Skyrim work for you? notice anything odd happening?

I see that you are on but didn't see my question. When you tested vsync off in BF3, did you turn down the settings (AO off, Shadows, Mesh & Effects low/medium). If you aren't consistently at an FPS cap of at least 125 FPS, of course you can still see tearing. If your system is pegged at 125 FPS and you still see big tears, I would be surprised because it isn't that fast of a game.

 

[bystander36]

Skyrim's engine has issues when it runs over 80fps. Lots of problems with flicker and the NPC models jumping around.

I am not seeing an issue, though I do recall seeing an issue a few months ago. Perhaps a patch fixed it?

 

[Fx1]

I see that you are on but didn't see my question. When you tested vsync off in BF3, did you turn down the settings (AO off, Shadows, Mesh & Effects low/medium). If you aren't consistently at an FPS cap of at least 125 FPS, of course you can still see tearing. If your system is pegged at 125 FPS and you still see big tears, I would be surprised because it isn't that fast of a game.

im at 1900x1200 so i would need to turn off all the eye candy to get to 125fps

im thinking of going to 1440p eventually so 125fps really isnt a solution for me.

My aim is to get 58/59 FPS Vsynced with minimum latency and zero screen tearing and stutter.

I seem to have fixed BF3 with this solution.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I am not seeing an issue, though I do recall seeing an issue a few months ago. Perhaps a patch fixed it?

No...I forgot to put fps cap on and it was jittering like crazy. Fraps told me 140fps so I went ahead and capped it.

Now maybe vsync does have something to do with it but I cannot personally test that.

 

[Wall Street]

im at 1900x1200 so i would need to turn off all the eye candy to get to 125fps

im thinking of going to 1440p eventually so 125fps really isnt a solution for me.

My aim is to get 58/59 FPS Vsynced with minimum latency and zero screen tearing and stutter.

I seem to have fixed BF3 with this solution.

Can you try just to humor me?

 

[bystander36]

No...I forgot to put fps cap on and it was jittering like crazy. Fraps told me 140fps so I went ahead and capped it.

Now maybe vsync does have something to do with it but I cannot personally test that.

I have noticed that there is no v-sync option for the game, but the game clearly has v-sync on, and doesn't allow for higher than 120 FPS. Perhaps the game relies on v-sync?

 

[cmdrdredd]

I have noticed that there is no v-sync option for the game, but the game clearly has v-sync on, and doesn't allow for higher than 120 FPS. Perhaps the game relies on v-sync?

Could be...I force it off to remove mouse lag in the game. I forget the .INI config option for it.

 

[bystander36]

Could be...I force it off to remove mouse lag in the game. I forget the .INI config option for it.

Weird. I tested this through the Nvidia Control Panel with v-sync on and off. I did not get jittering, but I did have some odd audio. I entered the game 2-3 times both with and without v-sync, and it only happened without v-sync. I would hear the sound of me running through water while running through Riften without v-sync, and it sounded normal with v-sync.

 

[cmdrdredd]

There is an ini config option that basically removes any vsync from the engine. I never had much luck outside of that in removing what I perceived as mouse lag.

 

[bystander36]

bMouseAcceleration=0 is supposed to help as well.

 

[omeds]

I see that you are on but didn't see my question. When you tested vsync off in BF3, did you turn down the settings (AO off, Shadows, Mesh & Effects low/medium). If you aren't consistently at an FPS cap of at least 125 FPS, of course you can still see tearing. If your system is pegged at 125 FPS and you still see big tears, I would be surprised because it isn't that fast of a game.

Of course he didn't, and even if he did would you expect him to admit it is actually of any benefit at this stage? That would mean CFX presents an issue in this scenario, which was how this debate started and why he is fighting so hard against it. His premise is that CFX is fine because you can vsync.

im at 1900x1200 so i would need to turn off all the eye candy to get to 125fps

im thinking of going to 1440p eventually so 125fps really isnt a solution for me.

My aim is to get 58/59 FPS Vsynced with minimum latency and zero screen tearing and stutter.

I seem to have fixed BF3 with this solution.

Many of us get 125 without "turning off all the eye candy". BF3 isn't that demanding. I get 125 even at 1440p.

I'm glad that fixed it for you, but it doesnt for me. It introduces as many problems as it solves imho. As I said, great for single player games though.

 

[blackened23]

Many of us get 125 without "turning off all the eye candy". BF3 isn't that demanding. I get 125 even at 1440p.

I'm glad that fixed it for you, but it doesnt for me. It introduces as many problems as it solves imho. As I said, great for single player games though.

Who are you trying to kid here with this statement? 1440p max certainly requires good graphics hardware with bf3 maxed out, SLI preferably. Although I quit bf3 long ago I used SLI specifically for bf3 at 1600p. Certainly a single 680 wouldn't cut it, not at the detail level I wanted. Certainly not 125 fps. Especially not in multiplayer which has more drops than SP. Come on. You're stretching the boundaries of truth here.

 

[omeds]

I didn't stretch anything. So what if you need MGPU? its not some rare and difficult to find technology.

All I said was its not as demanding as he makes it out to be, if you wanted 125 its easy enough to attain.

edit/ this whole discussion has been about MGPU frame times anyway, so wtf.

 

[loccothan]

hmm my friends CF 7970 runs like hell no stutering