[pcper] frame metering review 690 vs. 7970 CF vs. Titan

[railven]

You will always notice the tears. The are mostly visible on edges of walls and straight lines. People will debate all day about the benefit of FXAA and MSAA whilst living with screen tearing.

I most likely will always notice them, but some people don't. It doesn't register in their head until someone like me points it out to them (example, my loving oblivous girlfriend played her games with mind-numbing tearing happy as can be until I pointed it out. Now, she seems them every where and even learned to turn on Driver forced v-sync on her own for her games.)

For most of us fools that post on these here type of forums, I find it very questionable for them to claim they don't see tearing. My next question is - how much tearing does it take for it to be a hinderance. I'll be testing my tolerance threshold with this suggestions.

 

[omeds]

What drawbacks?

Input lag, less responsive, doesnt feel as fluid as high fps, hit rego.

I think you are missing his point. He isn't saying you WONT get tearing, he's saying due to the frame interval being less the shift in the frame would be smaller, thus the tear not as visible, if at all to you.

I, however, would have to test it myself to see just how much of the tear is visible, but say a game renders 100 FPS with unrestricted options, limiting to 60 vs limiting to 125, when it tears, the tears in 60 would be far more noticeable than the tear when limited to 125.



So, I'm not sure what option I should try to reduce the microstutter in WoW as much as possible while not tearing to all hell. I guess I'll try the 125 option for Dynamic V-sync and see what happens.

Thats right, it reduces the appearance of tearing. The offset at 250fps is half that of 125, and 125 is half that of 62. These are not random numbers either, its something to do with having a consistent number of fps per refresh, in multiples but just over to avoid static tear lines, so thats its kind of synced with the refresh rate. I know its not synced, but there is some relationship with the harmonics and this can be seen in the tearing pattern. If you use a cap thats not near a multiple for example, it looks choppy and really bad.

As was pointed out in the link I provided there are other factors too, like microstutter among other things that effect the tearing offset.

As for WoW, that is one game I would use a 59fps cap + vsync in, or just plain old 60fps vsync. The frame caps above are really for fluidity, response, and minimisation of tearing in FPS games. I dont think those are required in WoW and in that case vsync will do a great job.

 

[omeds]

You will always notice the tears. The are mostly visible on edges of walls and straight lines. People will debate all day about the benefit of FXAA and MSAA whilst living with screen tearing.

It greatly reduces the appearance of tearing. Vsync is not an option for many people in online FPS, and this is a work around while also providing other benefits. I'm glad vsync is fine for you in online fps, why cant you accept that other people have different tastes or requirements out of their hardware?

 

[Fx1]

Input lag, less responsive, doesnt feel as fluid as high fps, hit rego.



Thats right, it reduces the appearance of tearing. The offset at 250fps is half that of 125, and 125 is half that of 62. These are not random numbers either, its something to do with having a consistent number of fps per refresh, in multiples but just over to avoid static tear lines, so thats its kind of synced with the refresh rate. I know its not synced, but there is some relationship with the harmonics and this can be seen in the tearing pattern. If you use a cap thats not near a multiple for example, it looks choppy and really bad.

As was pointed out in the link I provided there are other factors too, like microstutter among other things that effect the tearing offset.

As for WoW, that is one game I would use a 59fps cap + vsync in, or just plain old 60fps vsync. The frame caps above are really for fluidity, response, and minimisation of tearing in FPS games. I dont think those are required in WoW and in that case vsync will do a great job.

There is no input lag when you cap at 59 frames. There is no difference felt between that and Vsync turned off.

How do you suggest you get the FPS to 250? or even 125 in games such as BF3? You cant get the benefit of these claims without driving insane frame rates that arent possible.

 

[omeds]

There is no input lag when you cap at 59 frames. There is no difference felt between that and Vsync turned off.

I 100% disagree. Yes 59+vsync reduces it, but its still no where near as responsive as vsync off with high fps. It still feels sluggish to me and many others.

How do you suggest you get the FPS to 250? or even 125 in games such as BF3? You cant get the benefit of these claims without driving insane frame rates that arent possible.

I already told you I get a solid 125 in BF3.

BF3 is hard capped at 200 too, so you couldnt get 250 even if you had the hardware. BC2 is pretty good with the default 200 cap though, so I imagine BF3 would be too, but I cant maintain it.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

There is no input lag when you cap at 59 frames. There is no difference felt between that and Vsync turned off.

How do you suggest you get the FPS to 250? or even 125 in games such as BF3? You cant get the benefit of these claims without driving insane frame rates that arent possible.

I can get 120 fps 85% of the time in BF3 at 1920x1080 on a single 7970.

 

[Cadarin]

There just isnt any science to back up your points.

The only fact is that 120hz monitors can lower your input response times in to the low 20's ms.

It takes your finger 200-250ms to push the mouse button even if you dont have to move the cross hair.

How many times do you think the game engine has updated by the time your finger hits the button?

Even with Vsync the game engine updates every 8ms on 120hz or 16ms on 60hz. Do you honestly think your going to get caught short just because the game engine has to wait possibly 15ms until it can register your click after it took you 250ms to push the button?

I can't believe nobody commented on this. I can start and stop a stopwatch in 5ms, I just checked. You can only click your mouse once every 200-250ms? No wonder you play with vsync on.

 

[Fx1]

I can't believe nobody commented on this. I can start and stop a stopwatch in 5ms, I just checked. You can only click your mouse once every 200-250ms? No wonder you play with vsync on.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Try this smart ass.

reaction times are measured from a reaction. its not a reaction if you know when to press.

 

[Fx1]

I can get 120 fps 85% of the time in BF3 at 1920x1080 on a single 7970.

on ultra with 4xMSAA?

 

[omeds]

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Try this smart ass.

reaction times are measured from a reaction. its not a reaction if you know when to press.

Mouse response time from your input, and your reaction time are two different things. On top of that the bulk of your mouse movements are not in reaction to anything. You are moving it on purpose, much like he pressed his stop watch on and off within 5ms np.

Going by your logic if the mouse reacted 200-250ms after you moved it, it wouldn't be noticable yet we all know that isn't true. Your PC would feel laggy as hell with a 200-250ms delay.

on ultra with 4xMSAA?

Pretty sure most current MGPU configs could handle it with 4xMSAA np, so it's not really worth debating that it's difficult to do. Doesn't matter if he uses MSAA or not, he can achieve those frame rates if he wishes to while still retaining what he deems to be decent IQ.

 

[Fx1]

Mouse response time from your input, and your reaction time are two different things. On top of that the bulk of your mouse movements are not in reaction to anything. You are moving it on purpose, much like he pressed his stop watch on and off within 5ms np.

Going by your logic if the mouse reacted 200-250ms after you moved it, it wouldn't be noticable yet we all know that isn't true. Your PC would feel laggy as hell with a 200-250ms delay.



Pretty sure most current MGPU configs could handle it with 4xMSAA np, so it's not really worth debating that it's difficult to do. Doesn't matter if he uses MSAA or not, he can achieve those frame rates if he wishes to while still retaining what he deems to be decent IQ.

Gamers complain about input lag because they want to improve their twitch response for headshots and reactive fire.

This is EXACTLY what that test shows is 200-250ms.

Most of the time your just looking around without expecting to need to react. On that test your waiting for the green screen to show and you know its coming.

On a FPS game you have no idea when your going to shoot or you might be doing something else other than looking for enemies. So your reactions are going to be closer to 500-750ms

We are talking about 16ms which wont affect anything. its easily in the margin for error and even if your in the top 1% of the top 1% gamers in the world your unlikely to get any benefit from 16ms.

Even blinking at the wrong time will have more negative effect on your performance than 16ms of input lag.

 

[omeds]

I'm a gamer and I want my mouse to feel responsive, not sluggish, aswell as improve twitch response and reactive fire.

The mouse feels sluggish to me with 59+vsync. *shrug*

 

[railven]

I'm a gamer and I want my mouse to feel responsive, not sluggish, aswell as improve twitch response and reactive fire.

The mouse feels sluggish to me with 59+vsync. *shrug*

Don't blink or your highly caffeinated opponent will slug you between the eyes!

 

[omeds]

lol

I think its fair to say when you move your mouse you would certainly notice if it took ~250ms to respond. Infact you would think something is broken.

Your reaction time to an opponent is a different issue.

 

[Fx1]

I'm a gamer and I want my mouse to feel responsive, not sluggish, aswell as improve twitch response and reactive fire.

The mouse feels sluggish to me with 59+vsync. *shrug*

My mouse feels responsive because i have a 1000hz Razer gaming mouse with 6 different DPI settings.

Vsync wont make no difference as long as you cap at 59

 

[omeds]

My mouse feels responsive because i have a 1000hz Razer gaming mouse with 6 different DPI settings.

Vsync wont make no difference as long as you cap at 59

I have a 1000 hz mouse too, and it still feels sluggish with 59+vsync.

You know, monitors also have input lag and people complain about the U3011 for example, which is only 24ms or so while a good display is around 10ms. That is because they expect to see a response, I dont see how its any different than expecting my mouse to respond when I move it.

On another note, what is the response time difference between vsync at 60fps, and 59 fps? I bet its far lower than 200ms and you can still notice it...

Yeah, your reaction time is a different issue than the response time of your hardware..

 

[Fx1]

I have 1000 hz mouse too, and it still feels sluggish with 59+vsync.

You know, monitors also have input lag and people complain about the U3011 for example, which is only 24ms or so while a good display is around 10ms. That is because they expect to see a response, I dont see how its any different than expecting my mouse to respond when I move it.

On another note, what is the response time difference between vsync at 60fps, and 59 fps? I bet its far lower than 200ms and you can still notice it...

i dont know but i do see a huge difference when 60fps vsync is used. i cant explain why this happens but i think its because the monitor doesnt support 60fps its 59.9.

Maybe game developers dont really care because they know how inaccurate their game engines are.

 

[omeds]

Turns out it's 1 frame worth of extra input lag. 16.6 ms. Thats the difference between 60hz vsync, and 59fps vsync. And you can notice it. Ha, imagine if it was 200ms, you would think your PC is broken.

 

[BrightCandle]

Vsync is at least 1 frame worth of lag, it can be up to 2 frames depending on its precise timing in comparison to vsync off. Its fair to assume its about 33ms at 60Hz compared to the same frame rate with vsync off.

Which considering the entire pipeline is sub 100ms means its a dramatic increase, of the region of 30-50% extra depending on a few other factors. The other big source of latency is the GPU rendering itself which at 60hz is only 16ms and your game and its sampling time which is often around about 1 frame as well (16ms).

Vsync increases latency noticeable, but not everyone is bothered by it.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Someone explain to my why Vsync doesnt turn the runt frames into full frames synced with the refresh of the monitor?

Basically this issue is for non vsync CF uses who are wanting awful screen tearing and screwed up visuals?

Im sorry but anyone who wants tearing over input lag needs their head looking at.

Also would a 120hz monitor with Vsync turned on also fix this runt problem and give 100% performance of the CF?

I want my mouse to move when I move it and where I move it precisely as possible. vsync makes it move too slow and sloppy. Period.

 

[Fx1]

I want my mouse to move when I move it and where I move it precisely as possible. vsync makes it move too slow and sloppy. Period.

did you bother to read the thread.

I have no problem with moving my mouse.

 

[Fx1]

Vsync is at least 1 frame worth of lag, it can be up to 2 frames depending on its precise timing in comparison to vsync off. Its fair to assume its about 33ms at 60Hz compared to the same frame rate with vsync off.

Which considering the entire pipeline is sub 100ms means its a dramatic increase, of the region of 30-50% extra depending on a few other factors. The other big source of latency is the GPU rendering itself which at 60hz is only 16ms and your game and its sampling time which is often around about 1 frame as well (16ms).

Vsync increases latency noticeable, but not everyone is bothered by it.

Im not sure this is the case. Something else is going on with 60 FPS on a monitor only able to display 59.9 FPS.

Going from Vsync off to on with 59 FPS feels no different but with 60 FPS it felt hampered more than it should.

 

[cmdrdredd]

did you bother to read the thread.

I have no problem with moving my mouse.

Yeah it moves, but it moves later and slower. I notice that right away in any game I use mouse aim in. It doesn't matter if I sync to 60 or 59 or 30 or half refresh rate. It still lags behind what I expect.

Yes I read the thread...

 

[Fx1]

Yeah it moves, but it moves later and slower. I notice that right away in any game I use mouse aim in. It doesn't matter if I sync to 60 or 59 or 30 or half refresh rate. It still lags behind what I expect.

Yes I read the thread...

I played 6 hours BF3 today with all 3 settings and the 2 worst things i noticed were screen tearing was seriously bad with it off and 60 fps sync was laggy and with it on at 59 FPS cap i had no problems with unresponsive mouse input.

My FPS was solid 59 FPS where as on the Vsync with no cap it flickered between 57 and 60 which says to me something else is going on there.

 

[bystander36]

Gamers complain about input lag because they want to improve their twitch response for headshots and reactive fire.

This is EXACTLY what that test shows is 200-250ms.

Most of the time your just looking around without expecting to need to react. On that test your waiting for the green screen to show and you know its coming.

On a FPS game you have no idea when your going to shoot or you might be doing something else other than looking for enemies. So your reactions are going to be closer to 500-750ms

We are talking about 16ms which wont affect anything. its easily in the margin for error and even if your in the top 1% of the top 1% gamers in the world your unlikely to get any benefit from 16ms.

Even blinking at the wrong time will have more negative effect on your performance than 16ms of input lag.

There is a difference between responding to something you see, and trying to track something with your mouse. It does feel sluggish when you move your mouse with v-sync on, especially with a 60hz computer. This can cause you to have a harder time tracking a target. You will find the mouse is always slightly behind where you want it to go, and when you stop it over shoots slightly. Granted, it may not be huge, but it is there.

To add to this, some people can get sick as a result of this latency. I get sick from this latency when my FPS are lower than 80 FPS, I'll get sick after a certain amount of time. At 30 FPS, I get sick in 5 mins. At 60 FPS, I last 30-60 mins and at 80+ fps, it goes away. This is due to latency and the sluggish feeling it has at lower FPS.

Due to my problem, I have a high end computer, and a 120hz monitor. Together, it greatly improves my experience.