Palestinians say Netanyahu speech obstacle to peace

[JEDIYoda]

I still prefer "Lemon Lawl"

lemon Law == Bagdad Bob..both interchangeable....rofl

 

[kylebisme]

Kind of like how the UN stepped in to protect Israel all the times from the Arab countries.

No Arab army has ever invaded Israeli territory, all the wars were fought on Arab land, and most of them were imitated by Israel. If you believe there is any examples to the contrary, please quote your sources.

 

[Zebo]

That was annexation through treaty:



That's basically the same as how Israel legally annexed the land between the their side of the UN Partition Plan and the 1967 borders, through the Oslo Accords. That's also why neither Jordan nor Egypt ever had any legal claim to Palestine, they never produced any treaty with Palestinians to felicitate any such annexation.


Please, look at Cyprus:


Much the same is true of Israel's occupation an colonization beyond the 1967 borders; it's legally invalid as acknowledged in many UN resolutions, and by the vast majority of the world.


Those are examples of annexation by treaty, like China with Tibet, and like the their side of the UN Partition Plan and the 1967 borders.


The oil lobby has no qualms with Israel, as they are both happy to prop up the same Arab dictatorships, and most people who are bigoted against Jews have no love for Arabs either. You're just coming up with nonsense to the contrary in a vain attempt to rationalize your flagrant misunderstanding of the rules of international law.

Your misunderstandings not mine. Point was the Cyprus issue never really comes up in media and certainly doesn't occupy many threads here even though the post 1945 violations are just as egregious according to law. Not to mention far greater catastrophes such as Darfur are never focused on. With the media and UN its all-israel-all-the-time if you can't see bias in that I don't know what to say.

And yes while "treaty" made stealing those lands from Germany possible it was a unilateral contract. Germany sure didn't sign it. Agression has it price and thus far the international community has been unwilling to impose it on Palestinians for 60 years of constant aggression. Double standard rooted in oil lobby and anti antisemitism.

 

[Zebo]

Oh yes 🙂 the "right of return" demand. Just more evidence that the Palestinians never accepted the state of Israel. Accepting a sorvereign Isreali state only if you can occuply 60% of its land is not accepting anything. ROFL! I guess you guys are OK if Isreal acknowledges a Palestinian state only if they can have settlements on 60% of your land area!😀 We will call it the Israeli right of return.


LL you are quickly becoming the Bagdad Bob of Palestine! You have no problem presenting the totally illogical and indefensible while you praise the virtues of conmen and hucksters with the zeal of a southern babtist preacher😀 From this day forward you will be known as "Palestine Bob"

LOLZ No "lemon law" suits just fine.

 

[Freshgeardude]

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Gee wilikers, all hail to you IGBT as you claim the Palestinians will play rope a dope until Israel is no longer defensible.

Or wait, or is it Netanyuhu that is really painting Israeli into an indefeasible corner?

So lets look at all what is brand new in the Netanyuhu speech to the US congress.

1. Its has been the position of every US President from Johnson, Nixon, and everyone forward that Israel had no valid claim the East Jerusalem, as Jerusalem must at best, be a joint capital of both a Israeli and Palestinian state. And now suddenly Netanyuhu unilaterally claims Israel must retain all of Jerusalem, something unprecedented by any previous US Presidential position, but Netanyuhu now suddenly demands it as its always been the US position.

Since when did Netanyahu say all of the previous US presidents stated that? He stated that is what he wants for Israel, something every prime minister of israel since 1967 has wanted.


2. Various peace plans have been floated by a series of US Presidents, but now Netanyuhu demands an Israeli military presence in the West Bank, something never demanded by Israel before in any previous peace proposal.

West Bank, no. Jordan Valley, yes.

more distortion of statements.

3. As far back as 2001, both the Palestinians and all Arab States have agreed to recognize the State of Israel in exchange for a Palestinian State, but now only recently has Netanyuhu increased his demands to include recognizing Israel as an excursively Jewish Theocratic State.

BULLSHIT. He never stated he wanted a Jewish Theocratic state, which you are throwing around. He wants a Jewish DEMOCRATIC state to be recognized.


4. Ever since the Fatah Hamas split, Israel has minimized Fatah as a peace partner because it can't speak for all the Palestinians. And now that Fatah and Hamas are forming a joint unity government, suddenly the New Israeli line becomes Fatah must reject any Hamas influence, ignoring the fact Israel never made a single past concession to reward the peaceful behavior of Fatah.

I dont know, maybe Israel isnt happy about hamas being part of anything because in their charter, they call for the destruction of israel, call for violence, have commited suicide bombings, launched rockets at israel.

the US, EU, Israel, Australia, Canada, UK, all consider hamas a terrorist organization. all WESTERN countries.

who are the ones not designated it terrorist?

well the arabs, duh. Russia, china. all eastern.



Gotta say something about Netanyuhu, he never lacks for Chutzpah, but now it remains to be seen if anyone in the world will still buy the Israeli position. The danger in over reaching by Israel, may result in Israel getting less instead or more in any final settlement.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...eality-that-obama-doesn-t-understand-1.363442

As many rational Israeli jews are now frankly horrified about Netanyuhu painting themselves in a Masada glorious moment just a begging to be dope slapped all over again.

you view the israeli/palestinian conflict through a peep hole and ignore basic facts to distort logic

 

[kylebisme]

Your misunderstandings not mine. Point was the Cyprus issue never really comes up in media and certainly doesn't occupy many threads here even though the post 1945 violations are just as egregious according to law.

No, your argument was:

By all rights of the rules of warfare and postwar settlement, israel should keep what they got and the saini they had

Which is ignorant bullshit.

Not to mention far greater catastrophes such as Darfur are never focused on. With the media and UN its all-israel-all-the-time if you can't see bias in that I don't know what to say.

I can see that our establishment doesn't support the Turk's efforts to takeover Cyprus, nor faction in Darfur, while they do dump billions of our tax dollars every year into fueling Israel's conquest of Palestine. Are you not capable of seeing how draws more attention?

And yes while "treaty" made stealing those lands from Germany possible it was a unilateral contract.

Nonsense. In regard to Alsace-Lorraine:

French troops entered Alsace-Lorraine November 1918 at the end of the World War I; the territory reverted to France at the Treaty of Versailles of 1919.

The area was de facto annexed by Nazi Germany in 1940 (although no official de jure annexation took place). It reverted to France in 1944-1945 at the end of World War II with the defeat of Germany and it has remained a part of France since.

And as for Algo Adige:

Italy and Austria negotiated an agreement in 1946, put into effect in 1947 when a new Italian constitution was promulgated, that the region would be granted considerable autonomy.

How in the world have you come up with the notion that these territories were stolen from Germany?

Agression has it price and thus far the international community has been unwilling to impose it on Palestinians for 60 years of constant aggression.

Rather, the international community is familiar with the history of the conflict, while you prefer to wallow in ignorance.

Double standard rooted in oil lobby and anti antisemitism.

Again, The oil lobby has no qualms with Israel, as they are both happy to prop up the same Arab dictatorships, and most people who are bigoted against Jews have no love for Arabs either. ou're just coming up with nonsense to the contrary in a vain attempt to rationalize your flagrant misunderstanding of the rules of international law, and your abject ignorance of history.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I like how when Palestine retaliates against Israel it's "terrorism", but when Israel bulldozes Palestinian communities and bombs thousands of civilians on the US taxpayer's dime, they are "defending themselves".

Here is the difference.

When the palestinians attack, the PURPOSELY attack civilian centers, such as malls, cities, etc.

in April, a school bus was targeted by an anti-tank missile, killing a 16 year old kid, for example.



When Israel targets "civilians" by your terminology, Israel is responding to places where things such as rockets or mortars are fired FROM.

Common places these rockets and mortars are fired from include hospitals, apartment buildings, mosques, cemeteries, schools.

Israel targets the launchers. If there are "civilians" around, it is their own fault.


All of those places were used by hamas or other radical groups during the times of Operation Cast Lead until today.


Why would someone logically stand next to a rocket launcher when they know israel is coming to destroy it?


if they are held there against their will, such as, in previous times, terrorist have launched rockets from the roofs of apartments while holding hands with their children and wives there, they can be considered casualties, but it is not in israels interests to target civilians.


that is the difference. Israel does not specifically target civilians, while groups like Hamas does.

 

[Freshgeardude]

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Of course it applies to Arabs and Palestinians, what land by conquest were those two entities granted post 1945?

Land conquest after 1945?


why look far away at china?

why look far away at EVEN cyrpus???


those places are too far away to look at.






We dont need to look far.

in 1949, gaza was conquested by Egypt, without any UN complaining or uproar from the international community.

in 1949, the West Bank was conquested by Jordan, without any UN complaining or uproar from the international community.

 

[kylebisme]

When Israel targets "civilians" by your terminology, Israel is responding to places where things such as rockets or mortars are fired FROM.

So you like to imagine, but in reality:

The Dahiya doctrine is an Israeli doctrine of military strategy pertaining to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. Employed by the Israel Defense Forces, the doctrine is named after a Hizbullah stronghold in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the IDF during the 2006 Lebanon War.

The first public announcement of the doctrine was made by General Gadi Eizenkot, commander of the IDF's northern front, in October 2008. He said that what happened in the Dahiya (also transliterated as Dahiyeh and Dahieh) quarter of Beirut in 2006 would, "happen in every village from which shots were fired in the direction of Israel. We will wield disproportionate power against [them] and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases. [...] This isn't a suggestion. Its a plan that has already been authorized. [...] Harming the population is the only means of restraining Nasrallah."

Check the references on that Wiki page for specific examples of Israelis targeting civilians.

 

[Freshgeardude]

So you like to imagine, but in reality:


Check the references on that Wiki page for specific examples of Israelis targeting civilians.

Its funny. You didn't read further

"The military approach expressed in the Dahiye Doctrine deals with asymmetrical combat against an enemy that is not a regular army and is embedded within civilian population; its objective is to avoid a protracted guerilla war. According to this approach Israel has to employ tremendous force disproportionate to the magnitude of the enemy’s actions."

Seems to me Israel simply figured out a way to combat the fact that the enemies hide amongst civilians.



Having said that, using a gun when someone pulls a knife from you isn't disproportionate.





You fail to acknowledge the historically recorded facts that Hamas in Gaza target civilians, all the time, no remorse, while launching these attacks from schools, apartments, mosques, hospitals, and cemeteries.

 

[EagleKeeper]

CC claims on no basis, "Compromise! Palestinians do not even understand that word."

When it far more applies to Israel instead. Especially when we examine the basic Olmert Palestinian almost complete agreement Obama based his optimism on.

But wait, who do we believe, will it be Netanyuhu in the style of the Iraqi information minister, or will it be the judgement of a 7 billion people world in the UN?

To some extent its silly Israel, they forgot to have the equivalent of an AIPAC in every nation. And now all Israel has done is to remove the USA as any honest mid-east peace broker.

As sure as God made green apples, some other set of nations will become the new mid-east peace brokers, and then the Netanyuhu position will become toast.

Typical LL, duck and run and usual rather than address the facts.

The Palestinians have had multiple chances to have over 95% of the land back.
Everytime they find an excuse to back out of their agreements.
They want all of the British Mandate, not what was originally divided.
They do not want to acknowledge that they screwed up by continually attacking Israel; by selecting Hamas; by listening to Arafat. Like the liberals - forgive and forget.

They will not live by their own desires to forgive and forget but they expect Israel to do so.

The Palestinians know what they want; they know what Israel is will to allow vs offer up. They know that they will not get a Right of Return and Israel is not going to fold up tents and leave. Yet this is their main excuse each time for conflict and running away from the table.

They are their own worse enemy - another broker is not going to make things any better. And it is people like LL that encourage such behavior by making them believe in the moon is made out of mana

 

[QuantumPion]

No Arab army has ever invaded Israeli territory, all the wars were fought on Arab land, and most of them were imitated by Israel. If you believe there is any examples to the contrary, please quote your sources.

Holy fuck you are retarded.

 

[EagleKeeper]

No Arab army has ever invaded Israeli territory, all the wars were fought on Arab land, and most of them were imitated by Israel. If you believe there is any examples to the contrary, please quote your sources.

Holy fuck you are retarded.

Such is typical. Ignore and/or twist facts to support their perceived notions of reality.
By stating that all wars were fought on Arab land indicates that he denies/refutes that Israel exists. Therefore how can he complain about the "treatment" of Palestinians by Israel if Israel does not exist.

It must be the Arabs that generated the Palestinian camps in Gaza and the West Bank. It must have been the Arabs that blocked the border between Gaza and Egypt.

It must have been the Arabs that tossed the Palestinians out of Trans-Jordan when they attempted to take over that country.


But the Arabs were supposed to babysit the Palestinians util the Pals were grownup enough to have their own state. In '48; they were not considered to be able to.

Look like the Palestinians have never really grown up.They went from babies to schoolyard bullies that would tattletale whenever anyone stood up to them.

 

[kylebisme]

Its funny. You didn't read further

I did read it, I just didn't bother quoting that far because it doesn't change the fact that Israel "deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population", the bombing of blocks of apartment buildings in Beirut being one notable example which is mentioned in the article, and the references listing many more.

By stating that all wars were fought on Arab land indicates that he denies/refutes that Israel exists.

Nonsense, as I've said earlier in this thread:

Israel legally annexed the land between the their side of the UN Partition Plan and the 1967 borders, through the Oslo Accords.

In other words; since the 1993 Oslo Accords Israel legitimately exists within the 1967 borders, and prior to that Israel legitimately existed within the borders of their side of the UN Partition Plan. Again, all the wars were fought outside those borders, which is why you can't cite any source to the contrary and are left to misrepresent me as denying Israel's right to exist instead.

 

[JEDIYoda]

No Arab army has ever invaded Israeli territory, all the wars were fought on Arab land, and most of them were imitated by Israel. If you believe there is any examples to the contrary, please quote your sources.

You all do realize these words of wisdom are coming from the same dude who started the infamous 9/11 thread???
You the one where the Op was owned by those who actually really had a working knowledge of physics......hmmmmmmmmm

 

[fskimospy]

Does anyone else find the slavish devotion of the American right to Israel disturbing? I know I do.

It's a separate, sovereign state. Israel doesn't display this love for America back at us, they are their own state that follows their own interests. (as well they should) They wouldn't think twice about dropping the US if they thought they could get a better deal somewhere else, but I don't think the opposite is true. It's like battered wife syndrome or something.

 

[Portly Penguin]

And I'm pretty sure Israel wants the Palestinians to stop crying "woe is me" while simultaneously preaching and encouraging the destruction of the Israeli state. That also seems pretty reasonable.

I agree. Obviously both sides are in the wrong, it just bothers me to see the selective criticism. If you think Palestine is any more to blame than Israel for the current state of affairs than you clearly have some sort of bias against Muslims and/or brown people, as most Americans unfortunately do.

 

[JEDIYoda]

If you think Palestine is any more to blame than Israel for the current state of affairs than you clearly have some sort of bias against Muslims and/or brown people, as most Americans unfortunately do.

wawawaaaa....the facts bear out the that the palestinians or as you call them "BROWN PEOPLE" are there own worse enemy!!!

 

[EagleKeeper]

<snip>

In other words; since the 1993 Oslo Accords Israel legitimately exists within the 1967 borders, and prior to that Israel legitimately existed within the borders of their side of the UN Partition Plan. Again, all the wars were fought outside those borders, which is why you can't cite any source to the contrary and are left to misrepresent me as denying Israel's right to exist instead.

So the Arabs apparently never attacked Israel? Never rolled inside the '48 borders?
If they never got inside the '48 borders; then what did they do in '48; Sing kum=by=ya and escort the Palestinians into Gaza?

BULL


From Wiki

Two Egyptian Air Force Spitfires bombed Tel Aviv. One of them was shot down and its pilot taken prisoner. However, the Egyptian Air Force continued its bombing raids over the city, and efforts were later made to shell the city from the ground. The fledgling Israeli Air Force responded by bombing military installations inside and near Damascus and Amman.[107]

Two Egyptian columns with air, armored, and artillery cover entered southern Israel, but were met with fierce resistance from numerous settlements defended by their armed inhabitants and Haganah troopers. The Egyptians were stalled and took heavy casualties, while Israeli losses were comparatively light. These battles were delaying actions, designed to give the Haganah time to prepare for the Egyptian attack. The most notable of these engagements was the Battle of Yad Mordechai, where an inferior force of 130 Israelis armed with nothing more than rifles, a medium machinegun and a PIAT anti-tank weapon, held up a column of 2,500 Egyptians, well-supported by armor, artillery and air units, for five days. The Egyptians suffered some 300-400 dead and wounded while Israeli casualties were 26 killed and 49 wounded. The Haganah stopped the Egyptian offensive at Ad Halom, near Ashdod, on May 29, after Israel's fledgeling air force performed its first combat mission, when four Avia S-199s attacked Egyptian armored column of 500 vehicles on its way to Ashdod. The Israeli planes dropped 70 kilogram bombs and strafed the column, although their machine guns jammed quickly. Two of the planes crashed, killing a pilot. The Egyptians scattered, and had lost the initiative by the time they had regrouped. Israeli Givati Brigade troops then counterattacked and halted the Egyptian offensive.[108]

Numerous isolated Israeli settlement outposts in the Galilee were exposed to Arab attack on all sides, and had to rely on their own armories for defense. The hastily mobilized Israeli Army engaged in offensive actions to push Arab forces out of key positions, block the advance of Arab columns, and rush to seal gaps in Israel's defenses.[109]

Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, and 10,000 Egyptian troops (initial numbers) invaded the newly established state. Four thousand Jordanian troops invaded the Corpus separatum region encompassing Jerusalem and its environs, as well as areas designated as part of the Arab state by the UN partition plan. They were aided by corps of volunteers from Saudi Arabia, Libya and Yemen. The Arab nations gradually increased the number of troops by the thousands as the war later progressed (see table of "strength" near top of page). Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily as a result of the progressive mobilization of Israeli society and the influx of an average of 10,300 immigrants each month.

According to your interpretation; Israel only existed along the shoreline of the Med, if at all. Remember that the Arabs never acknowledged the existence/legitimacy of Israel. Maybe that is how you, LL, and certain others get your information and can rationalize facts

 

[kylebisme]

Two Egyptian columns with air, armored, and artillery cover entered southern Israel... Yad Mordechai... Ad Halom

If you bother to check the maps, you'll see Wiki is wrong. While Yad Mordechai and Ad Halom are now part of Israel, they were on the Palestinian side of the UN Partiton Plan.

 

[Freshgeardude]

If you bother to check the maps, you'll see Wiki is wrong. While Yad Mordechai and Ad Halom are now part of Israel, they were on the Palestinian side of the UN Partiton Plan.

Two Egyptian Air Force Spitfires bombed Tel Aviv

 

[BeauJangles]

Two Egyptian Air Force Spitfires bombed Tel Aviv

Which is on the Palestinian side of the Palestinian Partition Plan.

Duh.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Which is on the Palestinian side of the Palestinian Partition Plan.

Duh.

must be.

because

Kylebisme said, "Again, all the wars were fought outside those borders, which is why you can't cite any source to the contrary and are left to misrepresent me as denying Israel's right to exist instead."

and it must be true

 

[EagleKeeper]

If you bother to check the maps, you'll see Wiki is wrong. While Yad Mordechai and Ad Halom are now part of Israel, they were on the Palestinian side of the UN Partiton Plan.

And where is Tel Aviv? Cyprus?

 

[Freshgeardude]

And where is Tel Aviv? Cyprus?

I think he fled the thread.