Ossama Bin Laden was not armed.

[Lemon law]

/waits for Lemon Law to grandstand about how the international community will no longer put up with US bullshit, turn on the US and impose international sanctions until the murdering US terrorists are brought to justice.

How dare we shoot mass murderers in the head!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to point out to you, I have no need to grandstand about this, the decider will be the reactions of the international community.

So like everyone else, we will just have to wait and see how events play out.

 

[zinfamous]

It was designed as a kill mission from the start.

Panetta said an hour or so ago on in interview on News Hour that they were authorized to kill, but to take alive if possible. Those in DC and Virginia (Panetta was at CIA HQ during the op) did not have video as it was going down.

They received word that bin Laden was down 20 minutes after landing. ("Geronimo" was the code word)

Interesting, he said that they did not even have confirmation that it was, in fact, bin Laden at the compound before landing. Their suspicion was very strong (simply based on the couriers), and images of a person fitting bin Laden's description walking around the compound.

they were instructed to grab bin Laden if he's there, get the fuck out asap if he wasn't there.

Now, I don't believe for a second that they were ordered to take him alive.

 

[SparkyJJO]

And why do we care what their reaction is? He was a mass murderer and no one sane will lose a wink of sleep.

This.

 

[irishScott]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to point out to you, I have no need to grandstand about this, the decider will be the reactions of the international community.

So like everyone else, we will just have to wait and see how events play out.

The vast, vast majority of the international community is glad he's gone for whatever reason. They might bitch a little about our methods with respect to international law, but no one important's going to give us crap about shooting him, armed or not.

Frankly I'm wondering why they released this info in the first place. Just seems to make it awkward for no reason. Or is this Obama's "transparency" campaign promise finally taking place?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As much as I hate to interrupt the totally reasonable debate going on here (right...), being "unarmed" isn't the same as not representing a threat to the SEALs. Maybe he was going for a gun that was close by, or trying to grab a weapon out of the hands of one of the SEALs. All in all though, I tend to trust that if the experts in the room viewed Osama as a threat (which is what the linked article says), I feel like I'm not really in a position to second guess them.

Reason is relative I suppose. From an operational standpoint how was a successful live extraction to be made?

I'm keen to know.

 

[spidey07]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well JediY maybe exactly the question, because we don't yet know what the overall world
reaction will be.

We should not and do not care what the overall world reaction will be. Protect America first and foremost, fuck everybody else.

 

[zinfamous]

Obama - directly responsible for who gets shot in the face

He is the only person that can authorize that action.


so...yes.

 

[CanOWorms]

Claiming that he did not have a weapon seems like it would diminish OBL's warrior status. People thought that he would go down fighting, but supposedly he went down cowering in a bedroom?

 

[Rainsford]

Reason is relative I suppose. From an operational standpoint how was a successful live extraction to be made?

I'm keen to know.

I think it would have been difficult, that was kind of the point I was going for. I think the folks lamenting the fact that we didn't take him alive, and the folks yelling "git 'er done" are both missing the point. It wasn't about revenge, it was simply a the most practical approach to the problem. Any amount of resistance could be dangerous, and he'd almost certainly not go quietly. I'm fine with the end result.

 

[Rainsford]

We should not and do not care what the overall world reaction will be. Protect America first and foremost, fuck everybody else.

If you're taking the long view, sometimes protecting America requires you to have an approach besides "fuck you" to the rest of the world.

 

[spidey07]

Claiming that he did not have a weapon seems like it would diminish OBL's warrior status. People thought that he would go down fighting, but supposedly he went down cowering in a bedroom?

That's a very good line of thinking. Well done. Make it known to the world that your jihad dream of going out in a blaze of glory and martyrdom will be met with swift, dark and unseen death from America.

 

[irishScott]

Reason is relative I suppose. From an operational standpoint how was a successful live extraction to be made?

I'm keen to know.

I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but to head off the armchair generals, any live extraction would have put the SEAL team at great risk, especially if the local Pakistani military base/police was already acting on the firefight and not in on the plot. I'll put the lives of SEAL team 6 over a murdering scumbag any day.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Panetta said an hour or so ago on in interview on News Hour that they were authorized to kill, but to take alive if possible. Those in DC and Virginia (Panetta was at CIA HQ during the op) did not have video as it was going down.

Ah, OK, I had not heard that. The initial report I read was that it was originally designed as a kill mission and nothing more.

 

[spidey07]

If you're taking the long view, sometimes protecting America requires you to have an approach besides "fuck you" to the rest of the world.

Being politically correct is no way to run foreign policy. We are to be feared, not allowing world view influence our decisions.

Appeasement is poor foreign policy. We were supposed to have learned that lesson from history.

 

[zinfamous]

Claiming that he did not have a weapon seems like it would diminish OBL's warrior status. People thought that he would go down fighting, but supposedly he went down cowering in a bedroom?

excellent.

:thumbsup:

I've also wondered if he really did use that woman as a shield (I haven't seen anyone confirm that it was one of his wives. The intel has said that he was expected to live there with his youngest wife, and it was his wife that ID'd the body. so...I assume the same woman. Then again, they didn't know for sure if he was there or not, if ever, until the SEALs saw him face to face).


Anyone else assume this was DELTA, and that we are simply told SEALs--USA can not acknowledge DELTA, correct?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think it would have been difficult, that was kind of the point I was going for. I think the folks lamenting the fact that we didn't take him alive, and the folks yelling "git 'er done" are both missing the point. It wasn't about revenge, it was simply a the most practical approach to the problem. Any amount of resistance could be dangerous, and he'd almost certainly not go quietly. I'm fine with the end result.

I believe the choice made was the only which would have worked. Consider that the ISI isn't bound by our rules of engagement, nor is Bin Laden an icon to be rescued at any cost. They would simply have killed everyone in the room, removed Bin Laden's body and make us look as if we were trying to assassinate one of their generals in retaliation for a baseless contention.

It would have turned into a nightmare and those in Pakistan responsible for harboring OBL would have been strengthened as a result. If international sentiment is a concern, what would it have been with a failed extraction?

 

[zinfamous]

If you're taking the long view, sometimes protecting America requires you to have an approach besides "fuck you" to the rest of the world.

Indeed. In this case, though, I don't think anyone has the place to judge our actions. The only nation that can and will take issue is Pakistan--and they are already obfuscating.

Musharraf was on AC360 last night. It was....hilarious.

 

[zinfamous]

Ah, OK, I had not heard that. The initial report I read was that it was originally designed as a kill mission and nothing more.

Oh, but I think he was lying.

 

[irishScott]

excellent.

:thumbsup:

I've also wondered if he really did use that woman as a shield (I haven't seen anyone confirm that it was one of his wives. The intel has said that he was expected to live there with his youngest wife, and it was his wife that ID'd the body. so...I assume the same woman. Then again, they didn't know for sure if he was there or not, if ever, until the SEALs saw him face to face).


Anyone else assume this was DELTA, and that we are simply told SEALs--USA can not acknowledge DELTA, correct?

It could very well be either or neither, given the nature of JSOC. Bottom line: dead bad guy, no collateral damage. That's a good day for everyone, even the angsty teenagers bitching about our methods. They just refuse to realize it.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Don't really care. The guy planned and ordered the murder of 3,000 unarmed US citizens. Fuck him.

 

[yllus]

Reason is relative I suppose. From an operational standpoint how was a successful live extraction to be made?

I'm keen to know.

Tase him, finger cuff him, blind him, carry him off. It could have been done.

I don't think it would have been wise to, though. It'd have been far too tempting to start a bomb-a-day campaign against America and their interests overseas until he was released. Better to kill him outright. There are cases in which the regular rules don't apply - this was one of them. I'll save my sympathies for someone who didn't declare and spearhead a war on half of the world.

 

[nick1985]

I wouldn't give a shit of they tied him up in a burlap sack and beat him with reeds.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Tase him, finger cuff him, blind him, carry him off. It could have been done.

"Could have been done"? In theory. In fact the time to accomplish this would almost certainly have resulted in an armed conflict. At that point the chance of live extraction is vanishingly small. Given the conditions as I understand them the most remarkable men I know would not have been successful, and I do not use that term lightly. A one in ten chance is a poor one.

 

[Throckmorton]

Someone please explain why the government admitted this.

 

[Craig234]

Don't really care. The guy planned and ordered the murder of 3,000 unarmed US citizens. Fuck him.

Just to show the poor arguments being made, how many of the civilians in Nagasaki were armed?

Oh, but that's different - we were at war, and it was a blow struck against civilians but aimed at the military.

Oh, you mean like bin Laden's declaration of war, aimed at the US military presence in the Middle East? Were bin Laden's targets at least as strategic as Nagasaki?

This isn't equating the two.

It's simply pointing out the inaccurate, selective arguments.

As if, if bin Laden had only targeted the Pentagon with all 4 planes, Ducati would change his position, instead of merely citing unarmed for drama.