*** OFFICIAL MATRIX RELOADED AFTERMATH THREAD *** spoilers

[SagaLore]

Hey I just happen to rewatch a few of the Matrix 2(&3) trailers - and I found out that the french guy is going to be back. There is this scene they played where Trinity has a gun held up to somebody, and she asks "Where's Neo" and the french guy, whom we still don't see, says "you're willing to die for this man, aren't you" and she says "you're damn right" or something to that affect. This thread is getting so big I can't find the post, but somebody was wondering if the french guy was going to play a role in the 3rd film and I think this proves he will have a part.

 

[CrazyDe1]

Originally posted by: MaxDepth
I will make these bets/predictions (in October, let's see how close/far I was):

Zion is not real - Zion is a part of the matrix. If a human mind cannot accept the consensual reality that was the primary matrix, then the mind will not participate further (either madness or coma?) and will be a waste of flesh for the machines (e.g. no to low power output). To combat this, the machines built another layer. One of escape (or error trap for those machines here). To those who reject, the machines built a false explanation. The human mind accepts the reason and goes on. However, there is a break point to this acceptance. A quarter or a million people now reject the false matrix and believe in this high matrix (matrices?). Morpheus says in his pre-rave speech that he rembembers 100 years ago when this began. 100 years (+ his age) old? Hmm, he might be speaking metaphorically, but...

Who is "human" and who is not - The councilman (played by Anthony Zerbe) is not. Morpheus is not. The inhabitants of Zion and the first matrix - I'm thinking 50/50 here. Reason: The machines need to understand their creators, humans. There is a symbios at work but I think the human side is waning (dying off). The machines are willing to live underpowered but they want to be "alive" and exist like the humans do/did. (Some of this comes from "The Second Renaissance" Animatrix episodes on the web.) Thats why the councilman preaches caution and co-existence to Neo and to show him the underbelly of Zion (machines behind the curtain so to speak). Morpheus is a program to move along the plot. Of course, if he is real, then the Zion matrix has programmed him to be a zealot.

Programs, programs, programs - the architect wants there to be a believable matrix and zero defects. the french guy, oracle and keymaker are minor programs within the larger system. At one point they may have been system administrator programs (regulators) whom have jumped into the matrix as sentient entities. That's why they survive reloads because they can enter the hallway of doors (e.g. slip back into the mainframe/main program). However, because they are minor programs they cannot see beyond their program. They can do awesome things within the matrix, but basically are stopped at that level. That is why the french guy keeps yapping about "cause and effect" because that's all he can do. He sees interaction at the most basic controlling level. Same with the oracle, make a pronouncement here and there and then follow results.

Neo and choice - in the room with architect, Neo sees himself in all those monitors - which are mathmatical representations of probability. Each one is a probability that the architect computes. At that space/time moment, Neo becomes one of the probabilities but not all the time. It's like the architect is running "IF - THEN" logic statements at a human. The architect says Neo carries within him the key to solving this program. The architect has programmed other iterations of the matrix but have all been flawed. The oracle in the last iteration began to see the glimmering of the "human equation" which the new matrices must include for the architect to succeed and in this present version the architect has built the Neo equation. Everything that has come (in this version - Morpheus getting him, Zion being built, etc.) before were pre-reqs to the Neo equation becomming active (needs a backstory that Neo can understand and believe before he makse his "choice".) If you notice, the probability Neos all made the same choice (walk to the Martix door) as did the one Neo. The architect is betting that this solution will somehow make the program work (full human/machine symbiosis). The architect can only make probabilities and understand permutations of choice but ultimately cannot create an outcome unless the humans actually participate.

The next movie - We only hear, not see, that Zion has fallen. Yet in the trailer (which is different than the one I downloaded) shows some of the "Metal Gear" type of guys fighting. If only one ship survived the whole distruction, then where does this guy and fighting fit in? I think the Agent Smith program stowed away on the ship and was able to infect them all once they emerged from the matrix. Zion may still be functioning. As to Agent Smith, he is not bound by traditional program routines. By being restructured with Neo routines added, it becomes Neo-lite. Program with higher IF/THEN statements and boundaries. That is why is was able to slip into the door hallway. Now, the program has gone rogue and must be dealt with by the Neo solution. Hmmm. Agent Smith representing task/master/authority program; Neo represents symbiotic relation/merge?


Coma with both? Naw, think reloading...

Good shiznit..

 

[Xionide]

Man i saw it yesterday, WOW. I understood the whole thing while i watched it except I didnt understand when neo was in the room with the architect guy and he gave him the two options, both options would FVCK everything over. So how did he get out of the room without destroying everything he knows and loves in an instant? is it cause the security system went off and the building blew and he didnt make his choise yet?

And how the fvck did he stop those machines? he said he could feel them. That architect dude was saying that everyone had a choise in the begining to go into the matrix or something, I thnk they have never been out of the matrix. I think zion is also in the matrix. Made to controll the people into thinking that they are leading a war against the machines, which they cant do because they are under controll.

And I heard there was a character in the movie who was completely computer animated, is this true? weho was he?

 

[SoylentGreen]

Originally posted by: Xionide
Man i saw it yesterday, WOW. I understood the whole thing while i watched it except I didnt understand when neo was in the room with the architect guy and he gave him the two options, both options would FVCK everything over. So how did he get out of the room without destroying everything he knows and loves in an instant? is it cause the security system went off and the building blew and he didnt make his choise yet?

And how the fvck did he stop those machines? he said he could feel them. That architect dude was saying that everyone had a choise in the begining to go into the matrix or something, I thnk they have never been out of the matrix. I think zion is also in the matrix. Made to controll the people into thinking that they are leading a war against the machines, which they cant do because they are under controll.

And I heard there was a character in the movie who was completely computer animated, is this true? weho was he?

Someone needs to read the thread.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: koolhand
So what's the deal with Neo being able to stop the Sentinels as if he was "in" the Matrix when he's
out in the "real" world??

the real world is a secondary program to contain the humans who got out of the 1st world.

they only thought they were free from the machine and had their real bodies, but they werent. even in their "real" world, they were still within the computer program.

NEO was the 6th one that tried to shut down the machine and save what he thoguht was his real world. but in actuality, he realized the "real" world was another computer program, thus he had power over it.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. How better to control the human condition of HOPE than to make them think they are fighting for a common good?

I REALLY need to see it again.

The Semi head-on collision was just kick-ass!

amish

YEAH!!! THAT CRASH WAS AWESOME!!!

anyways that a really good point..hmm we'll see in next one no?....yeah how was smith "freed" from the matrix?...and he can duplicate his own soul into the "real world" dudes as well? ahahah trippy man!!

DEFINTELY WATCHING IT 5 MORE TIMES!! THE MOVIE WAS KICKASS!!!! LOVED IT!

 

[MaxDepth]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MaxDepth
I can see!

after shelling out at least $250...

They're all backordered except for The Agent style.

Well that's because of those extras made for the movie...
(tongue firmly planted in cheek)

 

[m2kewl]

Originally posted by: MaxDepth

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MaxDepth
I can see! after shelling out at least $250...

They're all backordered except for The Agent style.

Well that's because of those extras made for the movie... (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

no - that one just replicates easily

yeah, that was bad

 

[MovieWhore]

i dunno if neone's mentioned this, but as most of u kno, the "enter the matrix" game's plot ties in directly with reloaded...it covers niobe's and ghost's stories starting from after the osiris to a little after reloaded

neway, my pt is that from playing the game, u discover from the oracle that "neo has touched the source....his mind is separate from his body....he is stuck between your world and ours....only trinity can save him, and he's gonna go thru hell to do it...." neway, thas not verbatim from the game, but thas what i remember, and remember that the game is written and directed by the wachbros, so there ya go.....this should clear up some sht about whas going at the end of reloaded

 

[kmac1914]

Originally posted by: MovieWhore
i dunno if neone's mentioned this, but as most of u kno, the "enter the matrix" game's plot ties in directly with reloaded...it covers niobe's and ghost's stories starting from after the osiris to a little after reloaded

neway, my pt is that from playing the game, u discover from the oracle that "neo has touched the source....his mind is separate from his body....he is stuck between your world and ours....only trinity can save him, and he's gonna go thru hell to do it...." neway, thas not verbatim from the game, but thas what i remember, and remember that the game is written and directed by the wachbros, so there ya go.....this should clear up some sht about whas going at the end of reloaded

Yea, I've been playing through the game and posting stuff that i discovered as i come upon it. I beat it with Niobe yesterday, and i just saw the part that you mentioned. I like the way they handled the fact that the Oracle is played by a different actress.

 

[Jmmsbnd007]

Originally posted by: wviperw

So has anyone noticed that everyone in Zion are young? That is, except for the 24 member council. They are the members from the last iteration of the Matrix, so the Chief that talks to neo in the basement is probably the last version of the "one".

Yep a few people noticed that. Check the first few pages.

If he's from the last matrix, how did he survive? Does Neo pick people then somehow die himself?

 

[Kitros]

Anyone think that since the Oracle is the "mother" of the matrix, her involvement with the 6 chosen ones is obvious in regards to keeping them on a realization path? Therefore, she is an antagonist as well...

Now, if what the architect is true (just think it is for the moment), and Zion has been destroyed 6 times previous, doesnt that mean that the real world might actually be real, since the other choice was to choose 23 people to start again... (think of the mass inbreeding)

With all that said, I think there might be a machine matrix as was pointed before, where the machines rule people - and this matrix is the one where Zion is. Created to control machines... but what for? Machines only do what they're told, right? So why the need for a matrix to control what is so easily controllable.

This would leave the more probable possibility of a secondary human matrix, where "HOPE" as mentioned by the architect, is the strength and weakness that convoludes the people of Zion's thoughts enough where they don't realize where they are - in another matrix.

Also, in regards to the spoon... I think the orphan knows there is no spoon in the "real world" as well... possibly trying to tell him something. I try to look past the obvious "good luck, there is no spoon" gesture.

In regards to what MaxDepth had said, why not have a number of these worlds, each with a revolution in it - their own Zion. As hope is our greatest strength - giving us more brainpower to feed the machines, it is also our greatest weakness, in that it keeps us in the Matrix, because we need to resolve chaoctic situations and try to restore control.

 

[Kitros]

Here's a quick thought...

If Morpheus said they had been fighting at Zion for 100 years, and Zion started off with 23 people... that would mean that Zion's population should be around 8-12,000 if each woman had at least 3 offspring and the average lifespan was 60 years. But, as most people shown were 20-30, that would mean there were even less people.

And what of the developement? 23 people start a civilization... in ruins? In the dust of the old city? Do they hollow out another area or move to a different cave system? That seems like a lot of growth for so few people, but they do have quick learning abilities - plug'n'learn, so the know-how wouldn't be that hard. It just seems unrealistic to have built such a city in such time...

Or maybe the machines just kill people, leaving the city intact - ready for the next city - but wouldn't that have raised a LOT of questions in regards to "hey, I thought WE were the first ones out..."

Or maybe the Architect was lying about different versions.

Or maybe it's a 2nd matrix.

Or maybe OUR machines inserted this movie to make us put out more brain power thus giving them a boost in energy... =P

 

[slydecix]

Originally posted by: polm
So whats the deal with the Oracl's cookies ?

I think they are some sort of virus.

I got the idea reading this : http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/cmp/kpage00_755.html

the Oracle = E-Commerce Websites, and the Cookies are for monitoring the people in the matrix bwahahahaha

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: FrogDog

Originally posted by: koolhand
So who was the kid that followed Neo around when he was in Zion?
Mouse? I thought he died?

No that wasn't Mouse. Mouse was on a crew before, the kid said he wasn't (I thought it might be Mouse too, until I heard that).

The Kid is explained in The Animatrix...well kind of. The reference of "you saved me.." "no, you saved yourself" is found in the short entitled "Kid's Story"

Basically he commits suicide in The Matrix, but is able to hold on in the real world..and is recovered by Neo and the gang. Then the short ends.

BTW, The Animatrix DVD is quite good. I watched it last night (review copy)...review should be up at the site in my sig today or tomorrow.

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

This is my take:

I believe Neo's reality is actually a 2nd Matrix as well. A Matrix designed to confuse human minds that figured that the First Matrix wasn't real.

How else do you explain him stopping those octobots at the end. That can only be done in a Matrix environment. He could *feel* them. This is a Matrix ability.

Also, he had dreams of Trinity dying as well as has other "future" dreams.........In parallel, the reason The Oracle knows the "future" events of the Matrix is b/c she has access to the "screenplay" of the Matrix "program" of the Architect and how it will play out. She can read this "screenplay." NOW Neo is developing this ability to read/access the screenplay of the Matrix thru his dreams in the 2nd Matrix his considers his reality--just like the Oracle "program", Neo can see the future events..................This ability is only in the 2nd Matrix, not the First. I presume the 2nd Matrix physics is a higher order/level where Neo can "access" this screenplay thru future dream as one of the new abilities.

To that end..............The Architect mentioned that this was the 6th time/Matrix version Neo was trying to get it right by choosing the right door to save humanity. Again and again and again, Neo chooses the wrong door to save Trinity. This whole adventure plays to a mathematical harmony and certainty--as the Architect put it. BUT, perturbations exist in each Matrix version/adventure that leads the Neo character to act differently ("choices")--which the Architect is confused as to why this happens, as the whole Matrix thing SHOULD play out mathematically in the Matrix.

I DON't believe Neo is human but a rogue program.........Here's the conundrum............Over 100 years has passed (according to the movie) since the first Matrix adventure version with Neo trying to stop the Matrix...........Being that humans can't really live past 100 years, within a pod or not, leads me to believe that Neo IS a rogue program like The Oracle!

I believe that this is another "fish out of water" revelation that will come in the 3rd movie. That Neo is living a 2nd Matrix that he otherwise views as "reality" AND that Neo is a program.

------------
BTW, Agent Smith went thru the phone line after absorbing/copying that guy. He basically went from one Matrix reality/universe to another. The physics of the Matrix would qualify such a thing as possible.

Also,...back in the first movie when Neo resurrected himself, he forced himself to BELIEVE he could rule his destiny and force himself to LIVE again b/c of the mutual love with Trinity. This is another Matrix trait of altering the physics of DIFFERENT Matrixes. Again supporting the fact that there are, as far as we know, at LEAST 2 Matrixes.

-----------------
ALL SAID AND DONE, I BELIEVE THE MOVIE WILL GO ON WELL AFTER THER FIRST 3 MOVIES. LIKE STAR WARS. This is a Franchise here folks. Just like Star Trek.....

 

[dhaddox]

Didn't Morpheus say in the first movie that it was the oracle that freed the first of them? I think so. Not another "one"

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

"There was a man born inside, who could rewrite the matrix, change it as he saw fit...it was he who freed the first of us"

Or something like that

I am firmly grasping to the idea that Zion is actually REAL, it seems a little too easy for it to be a 2nd Matrix...almost like a cop-out.

ALSO,

An impression I got from the teaser for Revolutions is that this will not end in a massive war, where one side wins...I think a co-existence will be the likely climax...I draw this from ONE clip in the teaser. The Neo vs Smith scene where 1000's of Smiths are on the side of the road simply watching. I think this will be the "work out the ending" scene...Notice that they hit each other at the exact same time, and both going flying back in exactly the same fashion. I think that this scene will be not unlike the movie War Games (old Matthew Broderick film). Where the computer corresponded launghing nukes with the game Tic Tac Toe...but was never able to win the game...it learned that no-one could win...I think the same will happen in Revolutions...Neo and Smith will pound on each other until the realise that the only way to win is to co-exist.

The Oracle mentions this to Neo in her convo with him. "I am interested in one thing Neo...The Future...and believe me, I KNOW, the only way to get there is together"

 

[Kitros]

I kind of agree with your new theory TheeChosenOne, however. Doesn't Neo display too much uncertainty to be a program? Or, is that his program...

I think that there are a number of programs running in the 2nd Matrix... like Morpheus and even maybe Trinity.

I really do not think Neo's a program because of the 1st movie... too much characterization.

Here's a question for yah:

How is an item brought from the matrix into a "real" world? ie: Tangible object brought from Oracle (some electronic device) to Neo and delivered at Zion after Neo has the dream/actual re: Agent Smith crossing over.

Think about the physics involved in a false reality of the mind, once unplugged, how does this tangible object magically appear in one's coat pocket.

That makes it painfully obvious.

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

I totally agree with your assertion that perhaps Trinity and Morpheus may be programs.

Regarding the object in question from the Oracle arriving at Zion. I understood that the object represented a message from the Oracle but the movie never let on that that physical object crossed from Matrix into the 2nd Matrix/reality. We simply don't know how that object came to *be*. Prehaps it was a message transcribed from one dimension to another. Who knows? From the film-viewer's point of view, it's pure conjecture on many levels.

Re: characterization in the 1st movie. Good point. But in the 2nd we we see Agent Smith realizing his different reality. He shows emotions and individual agendas not tied to the Matrix. He is know a full-fledged separate entity running around the Matrix like the French guy, Oracle, Ghost, etc. Thus, I take Neo's realization's within the Matrix in the same vein--an awakening of sorts to a new paradigm of reality. Like Agent Smith, the French seductress also has evolved. She loved the Frenchman but has become disenchanted with him......... These programs are clearly evolving and acting in ways no different than humans. Unless told, one would never know who's human or who's a rogue program.

The Wachowski brothers are heavy into philosophy. A recnt Time article said that they even put a famous Princeton philosophy professor into their movie b/c they were such *big* fans of his. He was one of the Council members in Zion. Since philosophy of being is so mind f*ckingly complex, I would not put it beyond the W. bros. to pull a complete mind f*ck with Matrixed realities. Alas, I think it falls right in line with their interesting warped thinking.

 

[bolido2000]

I thought when Neo meets the architect he says that Zion and Neo are basically mechanism to "fix" the matrix because of the imperfect math? That's why from time to time Zion has to be destroyed and rebuilt by the "one" so the Matrix can function properly. When the architect was talking about the dependence of the machines with the humans it reminded me the conversation between Neo and the Counsel....

About Neo being able to disable sentinels....I am thinking that Neo is actually a program created by the Matrix. That's why they kept saying about how each person or program as a function in the "world".

What would have happened if Neo had chosen the other door when he was talking with the architect? Didn't the oracle tell him to choose the other door to get to the door and destroy the matrix?

 

[0roo0roo]

...there's a scene in the game where Niobe runs into Persephone, and she pulls the same routine she did with Neo....the whole 'kiss me like you are kissing your lover' bit...and it's not a cutscene done with the game engine, it's actually Monica Belluci and Jada Pinkett sucking face. I have to applaud the Wachowskis on that.

there a cheat code where u can just watch the vids? haah

 

[eno]

I think there is a matrix within the matrix.

 

[alkemyst]

RE: all the young people in zion: You have to figure they are fighting machines constantly, and probably have minimal medical care so they have lifespans similar to ancient civilizations (around 30-40 max). In this environment women are probably almost immediately pregnant as soon as giving birth to (function is to rebuild civilization).

Re: the cookies: I think the whole movie is based on computer programming/internet...so I would not be surprized if the cookie the Oracle gives is just like a cookie on the internet.

I think Neo knows everything...including the end already and is now simply going through 'execution of his code' to find out why and how it happened. Sort of like when (as a programmer) you get a better feel for your program everytime you run it...until you can make it perfect.

 

[Kitros]

Re: Tangible object being crossed over.

After the 2 men jump through the glass ceiling and one guy says "you go first", he then says something regarding the object that he hands to the other guy. That object is the same small electronic object given to Neo later on, after his walk with the councilman. This object was clearly transfered from the matrix to Zion.

 

[chizow]

So anyone else think Morpheus and Trinity will have uber powers in the finale? That seems to be a recurring theme in the movie. "Dying" or near-death experiences in the Matrix seems to "set you free" from the confines of the Matrix, as seen in Neo, and later in Agent Smith.

Morpheus was pretty badass in Reloaded (much more capable than say, the original where he got bitchslapped by regular agents), but he still showed his limitations...you *knew* he wasn't gonna win in his fight scenes (vs. the Twins, and later the agents in the hallway).

Chiz