*** Official Anti War Protestor Thread***SanFrancisco, No Business as Usual....

[BaliBabyDoc]

One last thing, I am retired USMC and have a lot of freinds and family active in various US military wings..................I can tell you this, like it/mean it or not, we all take this as a direct protest against us and many consider these protesters as hostile as those we are fighting against..........................

It's unfortunate you feel such hostility. As a borderline pacifist, if I was alive during 'Nam I would have beat down protestors in the streets that had the gall to assail US troops for serving their country AND I would march along with people protesting our government's policy. My brother is a former Marine and another brother served as a Pershing Missile crewman. If they were on the line now it would not change my position at all. I support the US troops with one caveat (assault on civilians or civilian infrastructure . . . which is an extremely rare phenomena). I oppose US government policy.

You really need to check yourself if you consider protestors as hostile as Saddam's regime. May I recommend some reading material . . . try the the US Constitution. After you peruse it, pass it on to Ashcroft.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

One last thing, I am retired USMC and have a lot of freinds and family active in various US military wings..................I can tell you this, like it/mean it or not, we all take this as a direct protest against us and many consider these protesters as hostile as those we are fighting against..........................

It's unfortunate you feel such hostility. As a borderline pacifist, if I was alive during 'Nam I would have beat down protestors in the streets that had the gall to assail US troops for serving their country AND I would march along with people protesting our government's policy. My brother is a former Marine and another brother served as a Pershing Missile crewman. If they were on the line now it would not change my position at all. I support the US troops with one caveat (assault on civilians or civilian infrastructure . . . which is an extremely rare phenomena). I oppose US government policy.

You really need to check yourself if you consider protestors as hostile as Saddam's regime. May I recommend some reading material . . . try the the US Constitution. After you peruse it, pass it on to Ashcroft.

Cheap shot buddy....................

Like it or not, the administration IS taking all pains to avoid ALL iraqi civilian casualties and yes, we in the military always do too.

As for how I feel..........I don't "feel" any hostility toward you, I just see you as against me and my freinds and tell me, how exactly do you expect us to feel? it's not your fault you can not understand my position or mine yours...........................

As for your shot toward selected reading........................I firmly believe I know as much as you believe you do concerning the constitution...............perhaps it's all in how you perceive it. Now, instead of selectively moving around questions.......................give answers to the others I posed to you.......................

 

[IGBT]

...from yahoo.com.............But in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, Iraqis watched and in some cases helped as U.S. Marines rigged chains to giant portraits of the Iraqi president and tore them down. Townspeople mostly hid from the occupying force. Some patted their stomach to beg for food.


Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein, pumping his fist in the air, led a milling crowd of citizens in chants of "Iraqis, Iraqis, Iraqis!" A young man in a headscarf told Gurfein: "No Saddam Hussein. Bush!"

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: IGBT
...from yahoo.com.............But in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, Iraqis watched and in some cases helped as U.S. Marines rigged chains to giant portraits of the Iraqi president and tore them down. Townspeople mostly hid from the occupying force. Some patted their stomach to beg for food.


Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein, pumping his fist in the air, led a milling crowd of citizens in chants of "Iraqis, Iraqis, Iraqis!" A young man in a headscarf told Gurfein: "No Saddam Hussein. Bush!"

They won't believe this and still wouldn't if they saw and heard it in person...............................it's their nature.................

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

As for the protestors, I support their right to protest. If they break the law while protesting, they should be arrested. With the heightened security alert in place, they are doing more than just disrupting downtown traffic and businesses, they are drawing police and other resources away from what should be their main job of protecting the general public.

True . . . and I agree. There is a price to freedom. We are marginally more secure today than before 9/11. Our food and water supply was under attack by the USDA and various polluting industries (including munincipal wastes). If we can't keep e.coli out of the food supply from producers what hope do we have of protecting it from those intent on doing harm?

Trust me . . . local governments already waste resources . . . if a major D-I football school is nearby I'm sure you've seen an abominable use of police power to direct traffic. Regardless, significant funding increases for domestic police are needed . . . maybe you should write your Congressperson.

Let me pose this question then.........................what will you and those protesters say when quantities of WMD are found to be buried deep in underground bunkers???? You actually think Blix would have ever discovered where Saddam was hiding it? I firmly believe the protesters and countries which oppose this will all end up with egg on their face after all is said and done...................yea, Saddam is a real upright guy....................already using weapons he enfatically stated he did not have and setting fire to oil rigs he stated he would never do................

I have extensive ideas about how to deal with Saddam . . . too many to do justice to your question if listed here. But if I chose to follow the course of armed compliance (like Bush decided as soon as he read the Cliff Notes version of Wolfowitz's pre-emption doctrine) I would have extended diplomacy long enough to build a coalition of the willing instead of a coalition of the shilling.

There's absolutely NO embarassment from US troops finding a cache of WMD in Iraq. Saddam is a lying POS . . . he's been a lying POS since his election in 1979 . . . he's been a despotic pee pee head since the invasion of Iran . . . unfortunately he's only been a threat to US interests since 1991. If the US troops find very little . . . I will consider this operation a failure b/c I'm convinced he's hiding something. Intelligent protestors should be convinced of this as well. Only the ignorant/foolhardy believe Saddam is innocuous . . . or that the US will usher in democracy in Iraq.

 

[DanJ]

The military follows the orders of those in power. Protestors try to get attention of those in power. I'm not for this war but I support our troops 110%, just like the rest of the anti-war people I know and all the anti-war people I've seen at the peaceful rallies I've been to.

 

[ToBeMe]

Only the ignorant/foolhardy believe Saddam is innocuous . . . or that the US will usher in democracy in Iraq.

But...................can you not see and appreciate that disposing of Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people is a victory in and of itself? Leaving things "staus quoe" and allowing Saddam to continue evading and eluding the UN and Blix would only have extended the pain and suffering of these people.....................pictures are worth a thousand words..........................

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Trust me . . . local governments already waste resources . . . if a major D-I football school is nearby I'm sure you've seen an abominable use of police power to direct traffic. Regardless, significant funding increases for domestic police are needed . . . maybe you should write your Congressperson.

Oh, so you'd prefer there be massive traffic jams around the campus? I happen to work at a major D-1 school, located in the middle of a downtown urban area. The police would be in terrible shape if they didn't use officers to direct the traffic.

BTW, some French wine sucks. Don't automatically think it's going to be good because it's French.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

They won't believe this and still wouldn't if they saw and heard it in person...............................it's their nature................

I believe it. I believe we were welcomed in Beirut as well. If you rolled into West Palm Beach early December 2000, I'm sure plenty of people would have helped you remove Bush placards with a chant . . . "No George Bush! Gore."

I fully understand your perspective. I can recite the mantra. I've read Wolfowitz's writings from 1991. I've read the Patriot Act. Current US foreign policy, the Patriot Act, and the proposed Patriot Act II are broad, persistent attacks on what makes America great and justifiably respected throughout the world.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: DanJ
The military follows the orders of those in power. Protestors try to get attention of those in power. I'm not for this war but I support our troops 110%, just like the rest of the anti-war people I know and all the anti-war people I've seen at the peaceful rallies I've been to.

Peaceful is NOT disrupting thousands of citizens lives and shutting down major thororughfares..................

Anti-War is being against what i did in '91 and what my freinds and family are doing right now how do you expect us to feel toward you.....................................

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: ToBeMe

Only the ignorant/foolhardy believe Saddam is innocuous . . . or that the US will usher in democracy in Iraq.

But...................can you not see and appreciate that disposing of Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people is a victory in and of itself? Leaving things "staus quoe" and allowing Saddam to continue evading and eluding the UN and Blix would only have extended the pain and suffering of these people.....................pictures are worth a thousand words..........................

ToBeMe, one of the big issues I had with this war is that I feel we are opening pandora's box with "preemptive strikes", hitting before we are ever hit out of fear of what a country can possibly do in the future. Think about how many other countries can say things like this against enemy countries they have. Japan is uneasy with North Korea right now, lets say they start a preemptive attack as it is in their nations interest to not allow North Korea to hold WMDs, specifically nuclear. What right do we have to stop them and moreover, as NK has everything Iraq has and more, what right do we have not to support them in their action? What about China, Pakistan, Iran, etc...

What will this war lead to in the future?

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: ToBeMe

Originally posted by: DanJ
The military follows the orders of those in power. Protestors try to get attention of those in power. I'm not for this war but I support our troops 110%, just like the rest of the anti-war people I know and all the anti-war people I've seen at the peaceful rallies I've been to.

Peaceful is NOT disrupting thousands of citizens lives and shutting down major thororughfares..................

Anti-War is being against what i did in '91 and what my freinds and family are doing right now how do you expect us to feel toward you.....................................

For the record, I think the people should be peaceful in their protests..if they break the law, they should be arrested. That simple.

People who are anti-war are anti-war with this war, most for the reason that they do not believe Bush put an honest effort into trying to get the world together. Think about the support we had directly after 9-11 and the support we have now. Where did it go? How did we lose it so fast?

 

[cornbread]

If I find any protestors blocking my way on a street, I will run them over and then laugh at their dead body.
When they disrupt the lives of others, they deserve to die.
I hope all of the ones shutting down streets and causing problems die and rot.
If they love Iraq so much, why don't they just move there?

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

They won't believe this and still wouldn't if they saw and heard it in person...............................it's their nature................

I believe it. I believe we were welcomed in Beirut as well. If you rolled into West Palm Beach early December 2000, I'm sure plenty of people would have helped you remove Bush placards with a chant . . . "No George Bush! Gore."

I fully understand your perspective. I can recite the mantra. I've read Wolfowitz's writings from 1991. I've read the Patriot Act. Current US foreign policy, the Patriot Act, and the proposed Patriot Act II are broad, persistent attacks on what makes America great and justifiably respected throughout the world.

And if the tables were turned and Gore was declared the winner by a slim margin, the same would have been true of him!

If you say you understand, how can you not understand that what is going on in iraq is doing more good than harm for the Iraqi people and this being the case, what is the problem??????........simply that we did not get UN approval???? Does that make us wrong unquestionably? Can it not be possible that our position is correct and those against it are wrong?

As for your last point......................suprise................I don't exactly agree with or like many points of P/A I or II either...............as for foreign policy, of course there are problems....................there always are and always will be........................you can not please every nation and every person and there will always be those against something you are doing!

 

[FoBoT]

There will be a pro-American/Support the Troops rally/gathering in Kansas City, Missouri on Sunday, Mar 23 from 4-6 pm at the horse fountain on the Plaza

i am going to go

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: cornbread
If I find any protestors blocking my way on a street, I will run them over and then laugh at their dead body.
When they disrupt the lives of others, they deserve to die.
I hope all of the ones shutting down streets and causing problems die and rot.
If they love Iraq so much, why don't they just move there?

*sigh*

SIMPLE BREAKDOWN:
If they're breaking the law, they will be arrested.
If they're not, they're excercising their civil liberties as protected by the US Constitution.

If they're doing either one, and you kill them, you'd go to jail.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: DanJ

Originally posted by: ToBeMe

Only the ignorant/foolhardy believe Saddam is innocuous . . . or that the US will usher in democracy in Iraq.

But...................can you not see and appreciate that disposing of Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people is a victory in and of itself? Leaving things "staus quoe" and allowing Saddam to continue evading and eluding the UN and Blix would only have extended the pain and suffering of these people.....................pictures are worth a thousand words..........................

ToBeMe, one of the big issues I had with this war is that I feel we are opening pandora's box with "preemptive strikes", hitting before we are ever hit out of fear of what a country can possibly do in the future. Think about how many other countries can say things like this against enemy countries they have. Japan is uneasy with North Korea right now, lets say they start a preemptive attack as it is in their nations interest to not allow North Korea to hold WMDs, specifically nuclear. What right do we have to stop them and moreover, as NK has everything Iraq has and more, what right do we have not to support them in their action? What about China, Pakistan, Iran, etc...

What will this war lead to in the future?

The proverbial opening of "Pandoras Box" remains to be seen............................yes, it is a possibility, but, so far there are absolutely no indications of this as some claimed there would be. Tell me this, how/why is it wrong to take down a dictator like saddam......................he definately had/has ambitions of WMD and has proven no discretion in using them......................he starves and tortures his own people..........................he has been proven to deceive other people and countries to get what he wants..............basicly, it can also be said that those against this are wrong and have no concern for the people of Iraq and the years of torture and pain they have lived with................

 

[conjur]

CNN Radio reporting L.A. police chief is really upset with the protesters as it's taking away too many of his officers away from their expected duties at a time like this (high security level).

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

But...................can you not see and appreciate that disposing of Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people is a victory in and of itself?

Absolutely, but US policymakers are determined to do it THEIR way. The best way to a democratic, sustainable Iraq . . . may require a new nation of Kurdistan, a Shi'ite state which is a protectorate of Iran, and a third nation with its capital in Baghdad. Regardless, the removal of Saddam is a good . . . . and if the assault on Iraq requires not more carnage than what has occured so far . . . Bush . . . gets a thumbs up from me . . . ARGH, gee that hurt.

Oh, so you'd prefer there be massive traffic jams around the campus? I happen to work at a major D-1 school, located in the middle of a downtown urban area. The police would be in terrible shape if they didn't use officers to direct the traffic.

Do you ever wonder about the etiology of the word 'dichotomy'? I know, so I don't wonder. I am bemused that too many discussions at ATOT become a non-informative dichotomy.

BTW, some French wine sucks. Don't automatically think it's going to be good because it's French.

Read my posts . . . did I say the French make the best wine in the world? Did I say everything French is tres magnificent? My uncle owned a Peugeot so clearly the French can make crap with the best of us. My wonderful state of NC can claim the greatest number of soldiers lost in the Civil War, the greatest number of recruits rejected from World War II due to poor physical condition, marvelous (and affordable) wines from grapes cultivated in a region renowned for hog waste lagoons, and the valiant protestor who drove his John Deere into the Mall . . . protesting the plight of death merchants (oops, tobacco farmers) of course. Tangents aside, don't automatically think something is going to be bad b/c it's French.

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: ToBeMe
The proverbial opening of "Pandoras Box" remains to be seen............................yes, it is a possibility, but, so far there are absolutely no indications of this as some claimed there would be. Tell me this, how/why is it wrong to take down a dictator like saddam......................he definately had/has ambitions of WMD and has proven no discretion in using them......................he starves and tortures his own people..........................he has been proven to deceive other people and countries to get what he wants..............basicly, it can also be said that those against this are wrong and have no concern for the people of Iraq and the years of torture and pain they have lived with................

ToBeMe, I agree that Saddam is a horrible person, so does the rest of the world, therefore we should have world support. Why don't we? Where did all the support we had after 9-11 go? We have less support then we did in Desert Storm, 85% of the military forces in this war are U.S. forces. The steps leading up to this war were filled with needless rhetoric and world alienation. We were way too arrogant in getting here, and now we're here, and what I do now is hope it goes well; the war is already started so now I just have to hope they do this right, as the steps leading to this were done wrong. We should have a world coalition with us, rather we have a small group of 45 odd countries (of about 200), most of those being countries who look to the US for support, or are looking for future support from the US, very few that can provide any sort of actual assistance in this war and just about none of them having any significant percentage of the world population..something we truly need to ever consider the war on terrorism to be suceeding.

And I'm all for liberating Iraqi's, I don't get any satisfaction out of seeing them die impoverished. But, I don't believe their condition has anything to do with this war, especially after comments Bush has made in the past about countries with impoverished/dying people. Do you think we should send troops into Rwanda? Here's a nation where mass-genocide and ethnic-cleansing takes place all the time. Yet Bush back in 2000 said "We should not send our troops to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide outside our strategic interest." That doesn't really strike me as overly sensative to the problems facing the Iraqi people. It is of course, in our strategic interest to disarm Iraq.

I just think this war was gone about wrong, and the future ramifications of this type of war could lead to much larger issues; issues of countries wanting to protect themselves against countries they fear could cause them harm. Wasn't this the goal of the terrorists? To enstill fear?

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Oh, so you'd prefer there be massive traffic jams around the campus? I happen to work at a major D-1 school, located in the middle of a downtown urban area. The police would be in terrible shape if they didn't use officers to direct the traffic.

Do you ever wonder about the etiology of the word 'dichotomy'? I know, so I don't wonder. I am bemused that too many discussions at ATOT become a non-informative dichotomy.

A-ha! Start a spur of a discussion by using misinformed examples, and then complain about the forking caused by a correction of the misinformation.

Simply put: if you don't want dichotomies to form, don't foster them. Using examples that are incorrect to prove your point serves as a breeding ground for a deflection from the point you were arguing for. Maybe that was the purpose.

Read my posts . . . did I say the French make the best wine in the world?

I'm a teetotaler but I KNOW French wine is good.

You made a generalization. Since you don't drink, I felt I was helping you out by letting you know that you shouldn't always trust the label on the bottle. Besides, how do you know French wine is good? Blindly trusing others?

Frankly, I'm not a wine man myself - good beers, however, I can comment upon.

 

[LakAttack]

Originally posted by: cornbread
If I find any protestors blocking my way on a street, I will run them over and then laugh at their dead body.
When they disrupt the lives of others, they deserve to die.
I hope all of the ones shutting down streets and causing problems die and rot.
If they love Iraq so much, why don't they just move there?

If you hate our Constitutional Rights of Free Speech and Peaceful Assembly so much, why don't YOU move to Iraq. I hear there are a lot less inconviences caused by people disagreeing with the government there.

 

[FuzzyBee]

I agree that Saddam is a horrible person, so does the rest of the world, therefore we should have world support. Why don't we? Where did all the support we had after 9-11 go? We have less support then we did in Desert Storm, 85% of the military forces in this war are U.S. forces.

I'm not ToBeMe, but it is my firm belief that the major reason a lot of the countries aren't backing us is a financial one. France had no financial stake in Al Qaeda. Germany had no financial stake in Al Qaeda. I belive both countries have financial stakes in Hussein's government. In addition, I suspect both countries have sold banned materials to Iraq since 1991, or at leat have turned a blind eye to sales that could be used to create banned materials.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: LakAttack
If you hate our Constitutional Rights of Free Speech and Peaceful Assembly so much, why don't YOU move to Iraq. I hear there are a lot less inconviences caused by people disagreeing with the government there.

I don't care if you protest. If I'm not interfereing with your right to peaceful protest, though, don't interefere with my right to free travel.

aside:

And now, introducing your PLAYOFF BOUND Atlanta HAWKS!!!

I notice they've taken the "playoff bound" part out of the radio commercials now.

 

[dcpsoguy]

If protesters have the right to stand in the street and block rush hour traffic, then I have the right to run them over.