Yeah... That poor factory worker who can now actually pay for college and get out of working in a factory will really hate this...
Yeah... That poor factory worker who can now actually pay for college and get out of working in a factory will really hate this...
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,512
- 21
- 81
Who's fault is that? No-one held a gun to the factory worker's head and made him irresponsibly start a family when he was only making $12/hour.
The "family to support" gambit fails because the only way to end up in that situation is to make a choice to have the family. He chose to engage in an activity that he knew potentially would result in having people to support, why should we penalize the college student for the factory worker's mistakes?
ZV
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
- 17,948
- 31
- 91
Yes, but first the original boss has to be bludgeoned to death so that there's room for the new young boss...
Money such as scholarships and grants that are funded via tax payers dollars have proven to bring a lot more to this country's economy than it takes away over time. Hell, even private industry banks and underwriters look at things like student loans as "good debt" similar to investments.
I will say this. At least they will get some labor out of these people vs the current crop of govt grants.
The only thing I think is naive is thinking if this is taken advantage of that tuition wont increase accordingly.
The only thing I think is naive is thinking if this is taken advantage of that tuition wont increase accordingly.
Nah, just let the student start his own business and hire his father plus a bunch of other employees in the newly created jobs.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
- 17,948
- 31
- 91
That's a reason for the program but not an explanation as to who will pay for it. Is this part of the debt owed by the +$200K/year "rich" people?
Impossible.. once the incentives kicks in, everyone will have their degrees... everyone will be bosses. but the good news (I just figured it out) is that once everyone become bosses............. RObots will do all the cleaning and we will supervisor the robots, they will be the employees... They will also do the low level office work... some will even be dedicated as the slutty robot secretaries that, us, the bosses can take advantage off. Yes, its good to be "the man"..
And people thought that their degree in basket weaving was useless... Huhm... I guess, this plan could, possible, fail once the robots start to unionize or ask for "living wages..." Oh, well, it will be good while it lasts..
You will never be able to justify it. At the end of the day, all of the money gets thrown into a big pot. Some of that money comes from cut programs, others comes from the middle class, others comes from the rich.
The bottom line here though is that the rich will never remain rich if our econ does not flourish. Right now it is in a slump and Obama will hopefully fix that with some solutions that effect more short term (4 years) problems. He is also making plans like this program to help ensure that it remains strong afterward in this global market of ours. We will not remain competitive as a country unless our people get educated. The poor and the middle class are unable to keep up on their own without enduring massive amounts of debt thanks to ridiculously high prices and competition for that education. The idea here is to help them rise up so that as a country we remain top of the line.
You are also one that really hates social services like welfare are you not? Well, the only real way we can help reduce that kind of painful spending is to provide more opportunities and incentives for the children of families that basically have no hope to move beyond that eternal downward spiral. I think that a combination of giving them the opportunity to be responsible help their community in exchange for a reward that no only helps themselves but helps us all is a great way to do it. We have to do something and this is a great way to do it that I think most Americans will embrace as a good fair start in the right direction.
You sound like a raving lunatic.
Not everyone will get degrees because even though there is opportunity to have part of the expenses paid for through working not everyone will pass their classes. Also, not everyone will opt to take advantage of the program.
Plus you forgot a fundamental part of the growth process in business. If some of the more elite students become the "boss" of new and small companies and they hire lots of educated people who do a good job then their business will grow and more seats will become available including more seats for more bosses.
What exactly do you want anyways? The whole idea here is to give the middle class and lower class more opportunity to move up in life. You do want that right?.....or do you only want it if it comes for free?
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
I see no problem in giving students $4000 for tuition; but, only if they double the number of hours required to receive it! 100 hours is not enough.
200 hours of work = $20/hr, which is still WELL above minimum wage -- 3 times as much, in fact -- for the kids who need the help with their tuition.
I simply do not support paying them six times minimum wage for 100 hours. That's just ridiculous...
I would support government subsidies for students of $4,000 (more actually) even if they never worked a second for it. The countries that we are competing against have large scale, frequently low cost or free, postsecondary education programs for their population, and they are pulling away from us in this regard.
The important thing here is the educational aid, I think it's great that he wants to make them work for it as it will go to those most interested and deserving. The amount they would be paid 'an hour' to do it, I don't really care.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,732
- 561
- 126
I agree...but I kind of feel like there's a pentup backlash ready to occur against the ever rising tuition rates around the country that will bring supply and demand back into a bit. There isn't really any reason your average college should cost that much as it does, they're spending that money on fancy buildings and state of the art gyms. With the economy the way it is, maybe some kids will actually start looking at the cost benefit analysis a little closer, instead of just choosing the place that has an indoor pool. I'm probably dreaming though.
Education does not produce jobs. In parts of your posting, you are implying that once people get educated, there will be jobs waiting for them or jobs will magically appear.
To provide opportunities for middle class to lower class people, you need to create more jobs... providing these people with a college education, only helps them compete better with other people.. however, it in itself does not create more jobs. Having 5 open positions, and 10 applications (9 with college degrees, and one w/o a degree) still leaves 5 people w/o a job. Even if everyone got a degree, it still leaves 5 people w/o a position.
Your hard on for the idea of people getting an "education" for curing the ills of society by providing "opportunity" is ridiculous. It is not the total solution...
Take for instance, high school degrees.. it use to be that not a lot of people had them.. now just about everyone has one... however, we still have unemployment.. Focusing on education, just for the sake of "education" is a zero sum game. Job creation is where its at... and making or pushing people to get an "education" doesn't do do it.
Also, remember through out history, some of the greatest "job creators" -- Henry ford, Steve jobs, etc, never even got there degrees.. some didn't even have a high school education.
200 hours would never pass legislation. You are looking at this as a paycheck like one would get in the private industry, but that is not its intended purpose at all.
That's ok though. I'll write Obama a letter just for you letting him know that you think his plan sucks and that he shouldn't go forward with it. In addition, I'll just tell my SO to continue to accept her $4000/yr government grants instead. I'll also tell my younger sister to suck it up and continue working 40 hours per week while also wracking up massive amounts of debt despite the scholarships she earned as she struggles to try and get through college with the little time left available to her.
Sounds great!
You're too focused on a cost-benefit comparative to the work-force. The primary objective is 1) to give education aid where needed and 2) to get people into some sort of community service. The money spent here should never be seen as some sort of wage but as reward for service rendered that may prove invaluable to the community and provide a feeling of belonging to the individual. However, it should never take too much time away from studying.
If this were Obama's only plans when it comes to moving the country forward in general then I would agree with you, but that is not the case. He has presented his plans to create jobs and I am sure there is much more to come. I know you don't have faith in any of that as most hard liner Repubs these days don't, but you'll see. I just hope that when it does happen you are willing to give credit where credit is due. Likewise, if he fails then I promise you that I will be placing blame on those responsible.
My friend, I will be waiting. If it does work, I will give him credit. "moving the country forward" is in the best interest of everyone.
m1ldslide1
Platinum Member
- Feb 20, 2006
- 2,321
- 0
- 0
Universal Health Care + Student Loans / Financial Aid
FTMFW
Edit: Just to be very clear, my post means that this $12 factory worker can go back to school and probably do better for his family that at his current post, both in the short term and obviously in the long term.
UHC isn't the answer, unless we can transform it into a system more along the lines of Canada. Even then it has some major issues (higher taxes?).
Educating our population and UHC are not related nor should they be. UHC isn't the answer, hate to tell you.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 10K
-
Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)- Started by Vattila
- Replies: 13K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 7K
-
Facebook
Twitter