Obama rewords "students in college will participate in mandatory 100 hours community service"

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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

I view both sides of the equation as equally important. Give and take.

Doing so at three times the minimum wage rate is certainly a proposal that still works very much in the students' favors. After all, I earned my $4500/yr in tuition assistance by placing my life on the line and serving my country for several years... yet you feel that 200 hours is still too much to ask of students!? :confused:

I thought that Obama's proposals for college tuition assistance would become the civilian equivalent to the military's GI Bill. I guess I was very very wrong... 100 hours of "community service" is a fucking insult to every soldier who has ever served and received the GI Bill. Increasing that number to 200 hours is still quite generous...

The GI Bill is still available as an option. Plus, that option is ridiculously different and you know it. You are comparing apples and oranges. You just don't want to see it that way because it kills your argument.

Plus, you are comparing soldiers to civilians now. Soldiers get a hell of a lot more than $4000 per year for their service after factoring in all available benefits not to mention the job experience to put on your resume. What do you want to do? Make the students only have the option of putting in that kind of commitment? Fine, but you sure as hell better be ready to pay for and offer them the same benefits that soldiers in the military get.

Look, the point is that the military is not for everyone. This country need LOTS of different kinds of opportunities that work. Obama recognized that we are missing needed opportunities and he has developed a plan that will branch out and help in multiple ways across multiple problems in this country while still keeping college education as the center focal point.

Besides, had he been around earlier, you too would have had the opportunity to take advantage of such an excellent program. Same can be said about me. I am very happy that my son will be able to do it if it passes.
I'd like to think that my children will be willing to sacrifice much more than 100 hours of service for that sum of cash.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Originally posted by: Genx87
I will say this. At least they will get some labor out of these people vs the current crop of govt grants.

The only thing I think is naive is thinking if this is taken advantage of that tuition wont increase accordingly.

You hit the nail on the head. This is likely going to cause tuition to increase more.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Genx87
I will say this. At least they will get some labor out of these people vs the current crop of govt grants.

The only thing I think is naive is thinking if this is taken advantage of that tuition wont increase accordingly.

You hit the nail on the head. This is likely going to cause tuition to increase more.

You realize that state governments do have a hand in regulating those prices right? This is unlike private schools that are 100% free market.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: JS80
Congrats on Obama artificially increasing the demand for college thus increasing the price. And it's great to see that they are paying college students who will be more than able to pay back their college tuition once they enter the workforce, at the cost the of taxpayers. Yay for change.

You could have said the exact same thing about the GI Bill when it was enacted. Of course you would have been just as hilariously wrong then as you are now, but you could still have said it.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JS80
Congrats on Obama artificially increasing the demand for college thus increasing the price. And it's great to see that they are paying college students who will be more than able to pay back their college tuition once they enter the workforce, at the cost the of taxpayers. Yay for change.

You could have said the exact same thing about the GI Bill when it was enacted. Of course you would have been just as hilariously wrong then as you are now, but you could still have said it.

Exactly. You could also say the same thing about government grants and statewide scholarships to those who reach a certain level of GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Hell! You could even say the same thing about student loans!!

The logic there is all the same.
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,321
0
0
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Except for the fact that the $12/hour factory worker probably has a family to support instead of a family supporting him.

Universal Health Care + Student Loans / Financial Aid

FTMFW

UHC isn't the answer, unless we can transform it into a system more along the lines of Canada. Even then it has some major issues (higher taxes?).

Educating our population and UHC are not related nor should they be. UHC isn't the answer, hate to tell you.


I don't think I got my "edit" in in time. My reference to UHC has to do with that factory worker leaving his job to pursue education. Having employer-provided benefits can be a huge hinderance to this process, and if UHC is in place, that is no longer the case. His family can still go to the doctor while he tries to better himself. That's all I meant.

They still have rent and monthly expenses. Mr. $12/hr-factory-worker isn't going to be able to slow down working to be able to go to school. UHC won't help them be able to get to school. Even assuming for a minute it would, most wouldn't want to go to school.

As my mom always said, we always will need people to pick up our garbage.


Well I know that my 'student loans / financial aid' remark was in before the edit. ;)

IOW, he might just make more money getting loans that he did busting his ass 40 hours at the plant. He'll of course be on the hook for that cash later, but presumably with a higher-paying profession so it could all even out.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't inhibiting factors for middle-aged factory workers that are supporting families to try to return to school, I'm just saying that I think that most of them are mitigated and that if UHC were added to the mix, I can't really think of any others specifically.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JS80
Congrats on Obama artificially increasing the demand for college thus increasing the price. And it's great to see that they are paying college students who will be more than able to pay back their college tuition once they enter the workforce, at the cost the of taxpayers. Yay for change.

You could have said the exact same thing about the GI Bill when it was enacted. Of course you would have been just as hilariously wrong then as you are now, but you could still have said it.

Exactly. You could also say the same thing about government grants and statewide scholarships to those who reach a certain level of GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Hell! You could even say the same thing about student loans!!

The logic there is all the same.

Yes, and I am against all of those things.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,721
3,128
136
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

I view both sides of the equation as equally important. Give and take.

Doing so at three times the minimum wage rate is certainly a proposal that still works very much in the students' favors. After all, I earned my $4500/yr in tuition assistance by placing my life on the line and serving my country for several years... yet you feel that 200 hours is still too much to ask of students!? :confused:

I thought that Obama's proposals for college tuition assistance would become the civilian equivalent to the military's GI Bill. I guess I was very very wrong... 100 hours of "community service" is a fucking insult to every soldier who has ever served and received the GI Bill. Increasing that number to 200 hours is still quite generous...

The GI Bill is still available as an option. Plus, that option is ridiculously different and you know it. You are comparing apples and oranges. You just don't want to see it that way because it kills your argument.

Plus, you are comparing soldiers to civilians now. Soldiers get a hell of a lot more than $4000 per year for their service after factoring in all available benefits not to mention the job experience to put on your resume. What do you want to do? Make the students only have the option of putting in that kind of commitment? Fine, but you sure as hell better be ready to pay for and offer them the same benefits that soldiers in the military get.

Look, the point is that the military is not for everyone. This country need LOTS of different kinds of opportunities that work. Obama recognized that we are missing needed opportunities and he has developed a plan that will branch out and help in multiple ways across multiple problems in this country while still keeping college education as the center focal point.

Besides, had he been around earlier, you too would have had the opportunity to take advantage of such an excellent program. Same can be said about me. I am very happy that my son will be able to do it if it passes.
I'd like to think that my children will be willing to sacrifice much more than 100 hours of service for that sum of cash.

it's not cash, why can't you get that through your thick skull.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Xavier434
The GI Bill is still available as an option. Plus, that option is ridiculously different and you know it. You are comparing apples and oranges. You just don't want to see it that way because it kills your argument.

Plus, you are comparing soldiers to civilians now. Soldiers get a hell of a lot more than $4000 per year for their service after factoring in all available benefits not to mention the job experience to put on your resume. What do you want to do? Make the students only have the option of putting in that kind of commitment? Fine, but you sure as hell better be ready to pay for and offer them the same benefits that soldiers in the military get.

Look, the point is that the military is not for everyone. This country need LOTS of different kinds of opportunities that work. Obama recognized that we are missing needed opportunities and he has developed a plan that will branch out and help in multiple ways across multiple problems in this country while still keeping college education as the center focal point.

Besides, had he been around earlier, you too would have had the opportunity to take advantage of such an excellent program. Same can be said about me. I am very happy that my son will be able to do it if it passes.
I'd like to think that my children will be willing to sacrifice much more than 100 hours of service for that sum of cash.

The military is not for everyone and it should by no means be the only real option for higher education funding just because you didn't fall in the top 10% of your graduating high school class. You are just going to have to accept that fact.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: alien42
it's not cash, why can't you get that through your thick skull.
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JS80
Congrats on Obama artificially increasing the demand for college thus increasing the price. And it's great to see that they are paying college students who will be more than able to pay back their college tuition once they enter the workforce, at the cost the of taxpayers. Yay for change.

You could have said the exact same thing about the GI Bill when it was enacted. Of course you would have been just as hilariously wrong then as you are now, but you could still have said it.

Exactly. You could also say the same thing about government grants and statewide scholarships to those who reach a certain level of GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Hell! You could even say the same thing about student loans!!

The logic there is all the same.

Yes, and I am against all of those things.

Well thank god you aren't in charge of our country then, we'd get absolutely crushed by foreign competition with someone like you at the helm.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JS80
Congrats on Obama artificially increasing the demand for college thus increasing the price. And it's great to see that they are paying college students who will be more than able to pay back their college tuition once they enter the workforce, at the cost the of taxpayers. Yay for change.

You could have said the exact same thing about the GI Bill when it was enacted. Of course you would have been just as hilariously wrong then as you are now, but you could still have said it.

Exactly. You could also say the same thing about government grants and statewide scholarships to those who reach a certain level of GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Hell! You could even say the same thing about student loans!!

The logic there is all the same.

Yes, and I am against all of those things.

HAHAHA!

Dude...you are really in the wrong country. Seriously, why are you here at all? The vast majority of the people living here disagree with you when it comes to most things political. Hell, you have said multiple times throughout several threads that you believe the people of the United States deserve to be punished severely and that this country should be leveled to the ground so that we are forced to start over regardless of the outcome.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: palehorse

You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

Interesting. So when I call the fire department and it costs them $1000 to put out my house that's on fire. I have gotten $1000 worth of services that was paid with money out of your pocket. (lets assume I live in your town... haha) Have I just been given $1000 of your money? Of course not, I've received a service that was beneficial to me, and to the community as a whole. Just like education.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

You are right. We should be spending this cash to Iraq instead so that everyone that you want to join the military has a useless job. :disgust:
 

eleison

Golden Member
Mar 29, 2006
1,319
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: eleison

Education does not produce jobs. In parts of your posting, you are implying that once people get educated, there will be jobs waiting for them or jobs will magically appear.

To provide opportunities for middle class to lower class people, you need to create more jobs... providing these people with a college education, only helps them compete better with other people.. however, it in itself does not create more jobs. Having 5 open positions, and 10 applications (9 with college degrees, and one w/o a degree) still leaves 5 people w/o a job. Even if everyone got a degree, it still leaves 5 people w/o a position.

Your hard on for the idea of people getting an "education" for curing the ills of society by providing "opportunity" is ridiculous. It is not the total solution...

Take for instance, high school degrees.. it use to be that not a lot of people had them.. now just about everyone has one... however, we still have unemployment.. Focusing on education, just for the sake of "education" is a zero sum game. Job creation is where its at... and making or pushing people to get an "education" doesn't do do it.

Also, remember through out history, some of the greatest "job creators" -- Henry ford, Steve jobs, etc, never even got there degrees.. some didn't even have a high school education.

Education most certainly is not a zero sum game. That might have been true a hundred years ago, but definitely not today. We are competing in a global marketplace where our opponents ARE subsidizing postsecondary education. Companies, when looking for where to do business, value education extremely highly. So while it might not create a job, it does help to ensure that a job created comes to the US or stays here instead of going overseas.

Jobs are created all over the world, every day. Whether or not we want to be the people that design the soccer balls, or the people who stitch them together, is highly dependent on educating our population to a higher level than the competition.



If this is so, why is it that most people are doing something... are working at jobs that are no way related to their degree? Granted there are people who graduated with a degree in engineering that are engineers, but there are a lot more people with marketing degrees that are doing nothing related to marketing.

There are many people in this economy who graduated from a college with a degree and are working at Starbucks -- or at least that's what I've been told.

Pushing people to get degrees -- any degrees does not create jobs. Focus should be on job creation..
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: eleison
If this is so, why is it that most people are doing something... are working at jobs that are no way related to their degree? Granted there are people who graduated with a degree in engineering that are engineers, but there are a lot more people with marketing degrees that are doing nothing related to marketing.

There are many people in this economy who graduated from a college with a degree and are working at Starbucks -- or at least that's what I've been told.

Pushing people to get degrees -- any degrees does not create jobs. Focus should be on job creation..

You are right that education without jobs is pretty dumb. Likewise, jobs without education is just as stupid. The answer to make both plentiful and to do it at the same time if we are lacking in both in order to remain top of the line in this world economy. Thankfully, Obama understands that. You just don't believe he can do it properly. Let us all hope that you are wrong.

Also, about those getting jobs that do not relate to their degree, keep in mind that there are a great many jobs out there which require a degree but they are very flexible as to what kind. That does not mean that people without a degree would have landed the job though. Some do not even care what you have at all as long as it is a degree because getting a 4 year degree is a sign of commitment and responsibility.

 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,321
0
0
Originally posted by: eleison
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: eleison

Education does not produce jobs. In parts of your posting, you are implying that once people get educated, there will be jobs waiting for them or jobs will magically appear.

To provide opportunities for middle class to lower class people, you need to create more jobs... providing these people with a college education, only helps them compete better with other people.. however, it in itself does not create more jobs. Having 5 open positions, and 10 applications (9 with college degrees, and one w/o a degree) still leaves 5 people w/o a job. Even if everyone got a degree, it still leaves 5 people w/o a position.

Your hard on for the idea of people getting an "education" for curing the ills of society by providing "opportunity" is ridiculous. It is not the total solution...

Take for instance, high school degrees.. it use to be that not a lot of people had them.. now just about everyone has one... however, we still have unemployment.. Focusing on education, just for the sake of "education" is a zero sum game. Job creation is where its at... and making or pushing people to get an "education" doesn't do do it.

Also, remember through out history, some of the greatest "job creators" -- Henry ford, Steve jobs, etc, never even got there degrees.. some didn't even have a high school education.

Education most certainly is not a zero sum game. That might have been true a hundred years ago, but definitely not today. We are competing in a global marketplace where our opponents ARE subsidizing postsecondary education. Companies, when looking for where to do business, value education extremely highly. So while it might not create a job, it does help to ensure that a job created comes to the US or stays here instead of going overseas.

Jobs are created all over the world, every day. Whether or not we want to be the people that design the soccer balls, or the people who stitch them together, is highly dependent on educating our population to a higher level than the competition.



If this is so, why is it that most people are doing something... are working at jobs that are no way related to their degree? Granted there are people who graduated with a degree in engineering that are engineers, but there are a lot more people with marketing degrees that are doing nothing related to marketing.

There are many people in this economy who graduated from a college with a degree and are working at Starbucks -- or at least that's what I've been told.

Pushing people to get degrees -- any degrees does not create jobs. Focus should be on job creation..


In a service-based economy there will be no jobs unless you can competitively provide a service. You must understand that we are now competing with people from other countries to provide many of these services - hence 'global economy'. You can't create engineering or IT jobs if people in India can do them better for cheaper, because you won't have any customers.

If we don't have the education to compete, then we'll have to keep dreaming up reasons to bomb brown people or there will be no economy whatsoever.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: eleison

If this is so, why is it that most people are doing something... are working at jobs that are no way related to their degree? Granted there are people who graduated with a degree in engineering that are engineers, but there are a lot more people with marketing degrees that are doing nothing related to marketing.

There are many people in this economy who graduated from a college with a degree and are working at Starbucks -- or at least that's what I've been told.

Pushing people to get degrees -- any degrees does not create jobs. Focus should be on job creation..

What you should really be asking is why so many jobs require a 4 year degree without specifying the area it is in. A 4 year degree is much more than job training, it is a certificate that you are capable and willing to undertake a large scale commitment over an extended period of time, have your work at it evaluated by an independent agency, and have the quality of that work be found acceptable.

I'm sure there are people working at starbucks with 4 year degrees. (probably some post doc's too) These anecdotes don't change the fact that statistics show that education level and future earnings correlate to an extremely high level.

Once again, job creation does not solely take place within the United States. One of the largest factors that businesses look at when evaluating the HR potential of an area or country is the education level of the citizens there. Having a more educated populace draws jobs here, period.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: rudder
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
I like it. Carrot approach usually works better then the "you have too" approach.

If they offer me $4k for tuition expenses in exchange for 100 hours a year of community service I am all for it. It would work out to $40/hr going right to college, which I would take. So all said and done with work+that I have tuition covered basically, since school costs me ~$9500 or so a year.

Granted this won't take effect until I graduate most likely (in ~2 years).

Here's another idea, what about offering that same $4k to people who do 100 hours of service to help repay student loans as well? It would get more participation out of the 24-30ish crowd to get an extra $4k/yr to help pay down student loans.

Nothing like the American taxpayer having to give some college students $40 an hour to goof off. I bet the $12/hour factory worker loves the fact that the student will then get to graduate and make quite a bit more than $12/hour.

That $12/hour factory worker can enroll in college and get the same $40/hour reimbursement that the college kids are getting if he wants to.

ZV

Except for the fact that the $12/hour factory worker probably has a family to support instead of a family supporting him.
The $12/hour factory worker shouldn't have fucked around without a condom then, don't you think?

What does that have to do with paying still wet behind the ears kids $40/hr?

Absolutely nothing.

Since you must still be a virgin you probably don't realize that condoms break and the pill isn't 100% either.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: palehorse

You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

Interesting. So when I call the fire department and it costs them $1000 to put out my house that's on fire. I have gotten $1000 worth of services that was paid with money out of your pocket. (lets assume I live in your town... haha) Have I just been given $1000 of your money? Of course not, I've received a service that was beneficial to me, and to the community as a whole. Just like education.

These students are not receiving a government supplied "service," they are receiving cash, which they'll then use to pay for college tuition. Hell, it may even show up in the form of a check made payable to the institution of their choice!

It's cash.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: alien42
it's not cash, why can't you get that through your thick skull.
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

"Fully refundable tax credit" = cash
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

You are right. We should be spending this cash to [sic] Iraq instead so that everyone that you want to join the military has a useless job. :disgust:
"useless job"?

Fuck you.

EDIT: Like I said, I don't mind paying higher taxes to provide $4000 for each students' tuition; but, they still need to earn it. 100 hours is simply not enough. They need to give back more to the country/community to earn such a large sum.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: palehorse

You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

Interesting. So when I call the fire department and it costs them $1000 to put out my house that's on fire. I have gotten $1000 worth of services that was paid with money out of your pocket. (lets assume I live in your town... haha) Have I just been given $1000 of your money? Of course not, I've received a service that was beneficial to me, and to the community as a whole. Just like education.

These students are not receiving a government supplied "service," they are receiving cash, which they'll then use to pay for college tuition. Hell, it may even show up in the form of a check made payable to the institution of their choice!

It's cash.

Why are you arguing about the funds get transferred? How does your arguments in this thread help this country? What are you trying to solve and how are you trying to solve it?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: rudder

Nothing like the American taxpayer having to give some college students $40 an hour to goof off. I bet the $12/hour factory worker loves the fact that the student will then get to graduate and make quite a bit more than $12/hour.

...if they can find jobs. Since everyone and his brother and his brother's friends is going to college now, we're going to have an even larger glut of college graduates. Many of those people will then seek out even more education as a solution to their unemployment or underemployment problems, resulting in an even larger oversupply of unemployed or severely underemployed-and-involuntarily-out-of-field Ph.D. scientists, MBAs, and Lawyers, etc.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

You are right. We should be spending this cash to [sic] Iraq instead so that everyone that you want to join the military has a useless job. :disgust:
"useless job"?

Fuck you.

Like I said, I don't mind paying higher taxes to provide $4000 for each student; but, they still need to earn it. 100 hours is simply not enough.


Don't take that the wrong way. The military is not useless. My family has extended history in the military and I have a lot of respect for it. However, I simply disagree with the money we have been spending on this war from about 2003 on. That's just my opinion though and yes...I believe our great military and its soldiers were used in a way that was either useless or damn close. That doesn't mean I believe you or are military are useless though.


You do realize that most of your colleagues were screaming slavery just a few days ago for stricter requirements right? 100 hours > 0 hours. You are just going to have to deal with it.