Obama rewords "students in college will participate in mandatory 100 hours community service"

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: eleison

Education does not produce jobs. In parts of your posting, you are implying that once people get educated, there will be jobs waiting for them or jobs will magically appear.

To provide opportunities for middle class to lower class people, you need to create more jobs... providing these people with a college education, only helps them compete better with other people.. however, it in itself does not create more jobs. Having 5 open positions, and 10 applications (9 with college degrees, and one w/o a degree) still leaves 5 people w/o a job. Even if everyone got a degree, it still leaves 5 people w/o a position.

Your hard on for the idea of people getting an "education" for curing the ills of society by providing "opportunity" is ridiculous. It is not the total solution...

Take for instance, high school degrees.. it use to be that not a lot of people had them.. now just about everyone has one... however, we still have unemployment.. Focusing on education, just for the sake of "education" is a zero sum game. Job creation is where its at... and making or pushing people to get an "education" doesn't do do it.

Also, remember through out history, some of the greatest "job creators" -- Henry ford, Steve jobs, etc, never even got there degrees.. some didn't even have a high school education.

Education most certainly is not a zero sum game. That might have been true a hundred years ago, but definitely not today. We are competing in a global marketplace where our opponents ARE subsidizing postsecondary education. Companies, when looking for where to do business, value education extremely highly. So while it might not create a job, it does help to ensure that a job created comes to the US or stays here instead of going overseas.

Jobs are created all over the world, every day. Whether or not we want to be the people that design the soccer balls, or the people who stitch them together, is highly dependent on educating our population to a higher level than the competition.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Except for the fact that the $12/hour factory worker probably has a family to support instead of a family supporting him.

Universal Health Care + Student Loans / Financial Aid

FTMFW

UHC isn't the answer, unless we can transform it into a system more along the lines of Canada. Even then it has some major issues (higher taxes?).

Educating our population and UHC are not related nor should they be. UHC isn't the answer, hate to tell you.

No, go with the French System.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Few days ago: OMG WTF Slavery!!!!
Now: OMG WTF $40/hour!!!

I think it's funny that the same people who hate the idea of free government handouts also hate the idea of working for your government handouts.

I also think it's funny that many of these same people take every possible opportunity to sneer at those who are lower on the totem pole than they are. Their rallying cry of "get a job!" rings out whenever anyone complains about being poor or unemployed (nevermind the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs this year alone). Oh, and never raise the minimum wage. Even if you have a job, you don't deserved to get paid very much for it.

By the way, if you can't afford health insurance on your $4/hr job (remember, no minimum wage), then you're a cheapskate. Free market!

(I realize that a lot of these assumptions are off. I don't mean to stereotype all conservatives; rather, I am only speaking for the worst of them. Primarily the likes of Rush/Hannity/etc.)

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Few days ago: OMG WTF Slavery!!!!
Now: OMG WTF $40/hour!!!

:laugh:

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Except for the fact that the $12/hour factory worker probably has a family to support instead of a family supporting him.

Universal Health Care + Student Loans / Financial Aid

FTMFW

UHC isn't the answer, unless we can transform it into a system more along the lines of Canada. Even then it has some major issues (higher taxes?).

Educating our population and UHC are not related nor should they be. UHC isn't the answer, hate to tell you.

No, go with the French System.

Even though the French have some good ideas (like how they use mainly nuclear power), their UHC works better than Canada as well, UHC is still not the answer.

Especially in this bloated government. UHC would be horrible for this country to implement, because it would just become a mess as most of our government is.

 

[palehorse]

My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

They aren't working for cash. It's not the same thing.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: sandorski
No, go with the French System.

Even though the French have some good ideas (like how they use mainly nuclear power), their UHC works better than Canada as well, UHC is still not the answer.

Especially in this bloated government. UHC would be horrible for this country to implement, because it would just become a mess as most of our government is.

It will only become a mess if we elect those who do not believe in it enough to maintain it.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

They aren't working for cash. It's not the same thing.

Exactly. Think of it as a useful compromise that is somewhere between free govt grants and straight up loans or working a job in the private industry with an hourly wage.

Remember, this is still student financial aid we are talking about here.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

Yes and it should also be looked at as a step in the right direction in the sense that if it works then it can be adopted and slightly modified to fit in with other government programs that the Right and Libertarians hate so much. I'll let your imagination do the rest *cough welfare*. You gotta look at the big picture here.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
I like it. Carrot approach usually works better then the "you have too" approach.

If they offer me $4k for tuition expenses in exchange for 100 hours a year of community service I am all for it. It would work out to $40/hr going right to college, which I would take. So all said and done with work+that I have tuition covered basically, since school costs me ~$9500 or so a year.

Granted this won't take effect until I graduate most likely (in ~2 years).

Here's another idea, what about offering that same $4k to people who do 100 hours of service to help repay student loans as well? It would get more participation out of the 24-30ish crowd to get an extra $4k/yr to help pay down student loans.

Nothing like the American taxpayer having to give some college students $40 an hour to goof off. I bet the $12/hour factory worker loves the fact that the student will then get to graduate and make quite a bit more than $12/hour.

That $12/hour factory worker can enroll in college and get the same $40/hour reimbursement that the college kids are getting if he wants to.

ZV

I guess we better bring in more Mexican slave labor since everyone in the American workforce will now be college educated.

Really though... not everyone is cut out for college. As others have mentioned... maybe some people are at a point in their life where they just cannot attend college. Sure we can dumb down the community college system even more... but what good does that do? Obama might as well just issue everyone in the United States with a college diploma and save the taxpayers a ton of money.

Tennessee has a Hope scholarship (funded by the lottery) which gives $4000/year to every student. Of course they need to maintain a 3.0 GPA... and this requirement has already been lowered once since a large number of students were losing scholarships. Before long the only requirement will be to get your butt out of bed and get to class. I could care less since this is a voluntary tax that people pay and does not affect me as a Tennessee taxpayer... but will Obama's plan be a voluntary tax like a lottery?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: rudder
I guess we better bring in more Mexican slave labor since everyone in the American workforce will now be college educated.

Really though... not everyone is cut out for college. As others have mentioned... maybe some people are at a point in their life where they just cannot attend college. Sure we can dumb down the community college system even more... but what good does that do? Obama might as well just issue everyone in the United States with a college diploma and save the taxpayers a ton of money.

Tennessee has a Hope scholarship (funded by the lottery) which gives $4000/year to every student. Of course they need to maintain a 3.0 GPA... and this requirement has already been lowered once since a large number of students were losing scholarships. Before long the only requirement will be to get your butt out of bed and get to class. I could care less since this is a voluntary tax that people pay and does not affect me as a Tennessee taxpayer... but will Obama's plan be a voluntary tax like a lottery?

First, this program is not intended to hand a 4 year degree to everyone.

Second, I agree in some sense! In addition to this plan, let's also dump a bunch of money into public vocational schools that teach people who are not fit for college marketable skills to take to the workforce. Next, let's make a bunch moves to bring manufacturing back to America (I am vague here because it is long and complicated). Lastly, let's provide businesses with some tax breaks if they guarantee that they will hire some of the people who go to these Voc schools at a reasonable wage that is not above what the job is worth but high enough to make a living and stay off social services.

Third, student financial aid that provides funding based on GPA reqs is everywhere and it is here to stay. This is not a replacement program. This is an additional program.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

Yes and it should also be looked at as a step in the right direction in the sense that if it works then it can be adopted and slightly modified to fit in with other government programs that the Right and Libertarians hate so much. I'll let your imagination do the rest *cough welfare*. You gotta look at the big picture here.

I'm specifically looking at the big picture, that's why I think increasing the service requirement is silly.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Except for the fact that the $12/hour factory worker probably has a family to support instead of a family supporting him.

Universal Health Care + Student Loans / Financial Aid

FTMFW

UHC isn't the answer, unless we can transform it into a system more along the lines of Canada. Even then it has some major issues (higher taxes?).

Educating our population and UHC are not related nor should they be. UHC isn't the answer, hate to tell you.

I don't think I got my "edit" in in time. My reference to UHC has to do with that factory worker leaving his job to pursue education. Having employer-provided benefits can be a huge hinderance to this process, and if UHC is in place, that is no longer the case. His family can still go to the doctor while he tries to better himself. That's all I meant.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

Yes and it should also be looked at as a step in the right direction in the sense that if it works then it can be adopted and slightly modified to fit in with other government programs that the Right and Libertarians hate so much. I'll let your imagination do the rest *cough welfare*. You gotta look at the big picture here.

I'm specifically looking at the big picture, that's why I think increasing the service requirement is silly.

That was more of me agreeing with you and adding on to what you were saying to palehorse. I should have been more specific with that though because it was confusing. My mistake.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

Yes and it should also be looked at as a step in the right direction in the sense that if it works then it can be adopted and slightly modified to fit in with other government programs that the Right and Libertarians hate so much. I'll let your imagination do the rest *cough welfare*. You gotta look at the big picture here.

I'm specifically looking at the big picture, that's why I think increasing the service requirement is silly.

That was more of me agreeing with you and adding on to what you were saying to palehorse. I should have been more specific with that though because it was confusing. My mistake.

Victory!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

I view both sides of the equation as equally important. Give and take.

Doing so at three times the minimum wage rate is certainly a proposal that still works very much in the students' favors. After all, I earned my $4500/yr in tuition assistance by placing my life on the line and serving my country for several years... yet you feel that 200 hours is still too much to ask of students!?

I thought that Obama's proposals for college tuition assistance would become the civilian equivalent to the military's GI Bill. I guess I was very very wrong... 100 hours of "community service" is a fucking insult to every soldier who has ever served and received the GI Bill. Increasing that number to 200 hours is still quite generous...

 

[ScottMac]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: palehorse
$40/hr is ridiculously high... cut that in half, or double the hours requirement, and it might be doable; but, only if it's entirely voluntary!

It's not too high considering how college tuition increases faster than inflation annually. Private schools are far far worse.

I see no problem in giving students $4000 for tuition; but, only if they double the number of hours required to receive it! 100 hours is not enough.

200 hours of work = $20/hr, which is still WELL above minimum wage -- 3 times as much, in fact -- for the kids who need the help with their tuition.

I simply do not support paying them six times minimum wage for 100 hours. That's just ridiculous...

Of course, WHAT they have to do as "community service" could be something exciting, like dumpster scrubber, hauling trash, raking garbage at the collection center, sorting "stuff" at the recycle center, bedpan jockey at the state-run geriatric center ... some wouldn't even make the 100 hours.

It's not as good as picking up trash along the highway or scrubbing grafitti from highway underpasses ... some of it is really ugly work. Maybe they could scale the compensation to the ugliness of the job.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Except for the fact that the $12/hour factory worker probably has a family to support instead of a family supporting him.

Universal Health Care + Student Loans / Financial Aid

FTMFW

UHC isn't the answer, unless we can transform it into a system more along the lines of Canada. Even then it has some major issues (higher taxes?).

Educating our population and UHC are not related nor should they be. UHC isn't the answer, hate to tell you.

I don't think I got my "edit" in in time. My reference to UHC has to do with that factory worker leaving his job to pursue education. Having employer-provided benefits can be a huge hinderance to this process, and if UHC is in place, that is no longer the case. His family can still go to the doctor while he tries to better himself. That's all I meant.

They still have rent and monthly expenses. Mr. $12/hr-factory-worker isn't going to be able to slow down working to be able to go to school. UHC won't help them be able to get to school. Even assuming for a minute it would, most wouldn't want to go to school.

As my mom always said, we always will need people to pick up our garbage.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
I like it. Carrot approach usually works better then the "you have too" approach.

Yeah, it makes it easier for rich kids to get out of it, but keeps the weight on poorer kids who have no choice.

How like life... /ze french

I didn't get a new BMW either when i turned 16, what is obama gonna do about that?

It's entertaining to watch how every policy discussion turns into a jealousy-driven "how do we make rich people do XYZ" debate. The goal here is to a)improve your community b)promote college duction, not to conduct some sort of class vendetta.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: palehorse
$40/hr is ridiculously high... cut that in half, or double the hours requirement, and it might be doable; but, only if it's entirely voluntary!

Tax credit too. Effective pay is probably closer to $50+/hr

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

I view both sides of the equation as equally important. Give and take.

Doing so at three times the minimum wage rate is certainly a proposal that still works very much in the students' favors. After all, I earned my $4500/yr in tuition assistance by placing my life on the line and serving my country for several years... yet you feel that 200 hours is still too much to ask of students!?

I thought that Obama's proposals for college tuition assistance would become the civilian equivalent to the military's GI Bill. I guess I was very very wrong... 100 hours of "community service" is a fucking insult to every soldier who has ever served and received the GI Bill. Increasing that number to 200 hours is still quite generous...

I went through college on the GI Bill and it's not an insult to me. So, be sure to leave me (and almost certainly my friends) out of it when you speak for 'everyone who has ever served and received the GI Bill'. You are missing the purpose of the GI Bill and of this. The GI Bill's primary purpose was not as a reward for people who were in the military, it was to educate the population. The purpose of this plan is to educate the population. So spare us all your 'poor indignant soldier' routine. (in addition I am unaware of any stipulation that says military members going to college could not use this same benefit)

Now the purpose of the GI Bill is slightly different, it serves as a recruiting tool too. With the new GI Bill legislation the benefits that the average service member will get are many many times what a regular college student will get out of this program. (looks like the yearly GI Bill benefit will be somewhere around $20,000 now)

The question this tries to answer is how to best educate our country in an era of increasing global competitiveness. Once you start trying to answer that question as opposed to trying to figure out what you consider fair to your average grunt, I think you will become far more open to this.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse
My proposal of 200 hours of service is too high!? Oh. I get it... some of you would like to just hand them my money.

got it. :roll:

*sigh* The service exists to weed out those who are not committed to it, it doesn't exist so that our highways will be garbage free and our elderly will have someone to play checkers with. If the service part is what is important to you, then we should just contract out some professional old person checker players for minimum wage and get the same benefit.

I view both sides of the equation as equally important. Give and take.

Doing so at three times the minimum wage rate is certainly a proposal that still works very much in the students' favors. After all, I earned my $4500/yr in tuition assistance by placing my life on the line and serving my country for several years... yet you feel that 200 hours is still too much to ask of students!?

I thought that Obama's proposals for college tuition assistance would become the civilian equivalent to the military's GI Bill. I guess I was very very wrong... 100 hours of "community service" is a fucking insult to every soldier who has ever served and received the GI Bill. Increasing that number to 200 hours is still quite generous...

The GI Bill is still available as an option. Plus, that option is ridiculously different and you know it. You are comparing apples and oranges. You just don't want to see it that way because it kills your argument.

Plus, you are comparing soldiers to civilians now. Soldiers get a hell of a lot more than $4000 per year for their service especially after factoring in all available benefits not to mention the job experience to put on your resume. I think eskimospy covered the rest for you.

What do you want to do anyways? Make the students only have the option of putting in that kind of commitment? Fine, but you sure as hell better be ready to pay for and offer them the same benefits that soldiers in the military get. Look, the point is that the military is not for everyone. This country need LOTS of different kinds of opportunities that work. Obama recognized that we are missing needed opportunities and he has developed a plan that will branch out and help in multiple ways across multiple problems in this country while still keeping college education as the center focal point.

Besides, had he been around earlier, you too would have had the opportunity to take advantage of such an excellent program. Same can be said about me. I am very happy that my son will be able to do it if it passes.

 

[JS80]

Congrats on Obama artificially increasing the demand for college thus increasing the price. And it's great to see that they are paying college students who will be more than able to pay back their college tuition once they enter the workforce, at the cost the of taxpayers. Yay for change.