Obama - no to Keystone pipeline

[Jhhnn]

The Obama administrations own State Department conducted a study and concluded that the proposed route was in fact the best option.

Source? Other than the Forbes hit piece, that is.

 

[Bowfinger]

Yes, Obama has the power to fuck over the country for his own benefit and the people have the right to call him out on it. Are you actually saying that we can't criticize the president when he uses his discretion inappropriately?

Your post completely ignores the substance of the issue.

On the contrary, Jhhnn's post hits exactly the substance of the issue. Congressional Republicans have acted hypocritically, inflating the urgency and significance of this one project to create bogus ammunition to attack Obama. Meanwhile, they glibly ignore the far greater negative impact of their own party's actions and obstructionism, including 30+ years of a corrupt, destructive economics policy.

 

[Darwin333]

If the terms in the legislation offered options for conditions or modifications, you'll need to cite them.

Near as I can tell, the terms were "We're giving you 60 days, asshole, to take it or leave it."

Obama left it.

The attributions in your linked article are straight from the right wing spindizzy, btw. What Obama actually said-



http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/18/obama-administration-rejects-keystone-xl-pipeline

Potential Impacts to the Ogallala Aquifer and
other Groundwater Areas

DOS recognizes the public’s concern for the Northern
High Plains Aquifer System, which includes the
Ogallala aquifer formation and the Sand Hills aquifer
unit.
The Northern High Plains Aquifer system supplies 78
percent of the public water supply and 83 percent of
irrigation water in Nebraska and approximately 30
percent of water used in the U.S. for irrigation and
agriculture. Of particular concern is the part of the
aquifer which lies below the Sand Hills region. In that
region, the aquifer is at or near the surface.
DOS assessed the potential impacts of the proposed
Project on many aquifer systems. The aquifer
analysis included the identification of potable
groundwater in water wells within 1 mile of the
proposed centerline of the pipeline. More than 200
Public Water Supply wells, most of which are in
Texas, are within 1 mile of the proposed centerline,
and 40 private water wells are within 100 feet of the
centerline. No sole-source aquifers, or aquifers
serving as the principal source of drinking water for
an area, are crossed by the proposed pipeline route.
The potential for a crude oil spill to reach groundwater
is related to the spill volume, the viscosity and density
of the crude oil, the characteristics of the environment
into which the crude oil is released (particularly the
characteristics of the underlying soils), and the depth
to groundwater. The depth to groundwater is less
than 10 feet for about 65 miles of the proposed route
in Nebraska and there are other areas of shallow
groundwater in each state along the proposed route.
Diluted bitumen and synthetic crude oil, the two types
of crude oil that would be transported by the proposed
Project, would both initially float on water if spilled.
Over time, the lighter aromatic fractions of the crude
oil would evaporate, and water-soluble components
could enter the groundwater.
Studies of oil spills from underground storage tanks
indicate that potential surface and groundwater
impacts are typically limited to several hundred feet or
less from a spill site. An example of a crude oil
release from a pipeline system into an environment
similar to the Northern High Plains Aquifer system
occurred in 1979 near Bemidji, Minnesota.
While the conditions at Bemidji are not fully
analogous to the Sand Hills region, extensive studies
of the Bemidji spill suggest that impacts to shallow
groundwater from a spill of a similar volume in the
Sand Hills region would affect a limited area of the
aquifer around the spill site. In no spill incident
scenario would the entire Northern High Plains
Aquifer system be adversely affected.
In addition to the Northern High Plains Aquifer
system, there are other groundwater areas along the
proposed route, including shallow or near-surface
aquifers. DOS in consultation with PHMSA and EPA
determined that Keystone should commission an
independent consultant to review the Keystone risk
assessment. The independent review will be
conducted by a firm approved by DOS in concurrence
with PHMSA and EPA, and would focus on a review
of valve placement and the possibility of deploying
external leak detection systems in areas of
particularly sensitive environmental resources, but
would not be limited to those issues. The specific
scope of the analysis will be approved by DOS,
PHMSA, and EPA. DOS, with concurrence from
PHMSA and EPA, will determine the need for any
additional mitigation measures resulting from the
analysis.

Source: US State Department EXECUTIVE SUMMARY Final Environmental Impact statement for the Proposed Keystone XL Project
http://www.keystonepipeline-xl.state.gov/clientsite/keystonexl.nsf?Open

 

[Darwin333]

Pardon my using your post to make a point unrelated to yours.

Those bajillion pipelines went through the same time consuming approval process that this newly proposed pipeline has been going through, only the Repubs are slapping a 60 day time limit on it purely for political gain.

It's so blatantly obvious how the Repubs are playing political poker with this pipeline that I can't see how anyone can construe this any other way other than those Repubs who want to play this lame blame game in the first place.

The point you are missing is that they already went through the time consuming process. The state departments FEIS report came out months ago.

 

[Darwin333]

Whatever his reasons, he's done that all along. It's clear that he has the power & the right to do so as Prez.

Political gain? I think you're misidentifying who started this fracas with political gain in mind- Republicans.

While I don't really care about the political points both of yalls sides are trying to score, it is very hard to argue that Obama delayed his decision until after the election for pure political reasons. His own State Departments report covers all of the concerns that I have seen brought up which is what leads me to believe the above.

 

[Darwin333]

Source? Other than the Forbes hit piece, that is.

http://www.keystonepipeline-xl.state.gov/clientsite/keystonexl.nsf?Open

United States Government State Departments website

Edit: scroll down and click on the Executive Summary of the final EIS (environmental impact study)

 

[K1052]

The point you are missing is that they already went through the time consuming process. The state departments FEIS report came out months ago.

Obama tossed it to the IG to vet the EIS, which is fully within his purview. Nebraska also did not want the route to go over the Sand Hills due to enormous local opposition. Their own Governor (R) wrote Obama a letter asking him to reject the pipeline with the current routing:

http://www.governor.nebraska.gov/news/2011/08/31_pipeline.html

Governor Calls on President to Deny Pipeline Permit


(Lincoln, Neb.) PIPLINE LETTER (pdf) - Today, Gov. Dave Heineman sent a letter to President Barack Obama and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, urging the federal government to deny the permit for the Keystone XL Pipeline, currently proposed to be routed over the Ogallala Aquifer.

In the letter, Gov. Heineman said, “I want to emphasize that I am not opposed to pipelines. I am opposed to the proposed Keystone XL Pipeline route because it is directly over the Ogallala Aquifer.”

The text of the letter follows:

Dear President Obama and Secretary Clinton:

I am writing to you today regarding a very important issue to the State of Nebraska and to our citizens- the Keystone XL Pipeline. I am opposed to the proposed route of this pipeline. The Final Environmental Impact Statement compares a potential spill in the Sand Hills region to a 1979 Bemidji, Minnesota spill and concludes that “the impacts to shallow groundwater from a spill of a similar volume in the Sand Hills region would affect a limited area of the aquifer around the spill site.” I disagree with this analysis, and I believe that the pipeline should not cross a substantial portion of the Ogallala Aquifer.

Of the current proposed route, 254 miles of the pipeline would come through Nebraska and be situated directly over the Ogallala Aquifer. The aquifer provides water to farmers and ranchers of Nebraska to raise livestock and grow crops. Nebraska has 92,685 registered, active irrigation wells supplying water to over 8.5 million acres of harvested cropland and pasture. Forty-six percent of the total cropland harvested during 2007 was irrigated. Maintaining and protecting Nebraska’s water supply is very important to me and the residents of Nebraska. This resource is the lifeblood of Nebraska’s agriculture industry. Cash receipts from farm markets contribute over $17 billion to Nebraska’s economy annually. I am concerned that the proposed pipeline will potentially have detrimental effects on this valuable natural resource and Nebraska’s economy.

I want to emphasize that I am not opposed to pipelines. We already have hundreds of them in our state. I am opposed to the proposed Keystone XL Pipeline route because it is directly over the Ogallala Aquifer.

Therefore, I am asking you to disapprove TransCanada’s pending permit request. Do not allow TransCanada to build a pipeline over the Ogallala Aquifer and risk the potential damage to Nebraska’s water. Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

 

[Darwin333]

Obama tossed it to the IG to vet the EIS, which is fully within his purview. Nebraska also did not want the route to go over the Sand Hills due to enormous local opposition. Their own Governor (R) wrote Obama a letter asking him to reject the pipeline with the current routing.

The reason he tossed it to the IG was, imo, nothing more than a delay tactic. All of the issues that have been brought up, including the main one which was a "conflict of interest", have been addressed.

There never was a conflict of interest because the only time that Cardno and Transcanada have ever worked together was because the Federal Government chose Cardno and by law the company applying for the permit must pay for the impact study. While Transcanada paid the bills Cardno worked for the Federal Government.

The Sand Hills route was also addressed in the report. I am not sure how the law works with states being able to deny the project for whatever reasons but if they can than Nebraska should have been the one to shoot the route down.

BTW, the report concluded that rerouting the pipeline would increase the environmental impact and potential harm.

 

[Darwin333]

Obama tossed it to the IG to vet the EIS, which is fully within his purview. Nebraska also did not want the route to go over the Sand Hills due to enormous local opposition. Their own Governor (R) wrote Obama a letter asking him to reject the pipeline with the current routing:

http://www.governor.nebraska.gov/news/2011/08/31_pipeline.html

Please see the above impact study on the aquifer done by Obama's State Department.

If we are to allow NIMBY and not actual science to determine our future infrastructure projects we will never achieve the goal of increasing use of "green power" and decreased use of existing dirty fuel. We also can't build new train lines, new roads and highways, new anything basically because there is always some sort of NIMBY.

Direct quote from Obama's State Departments FEIS:

In no spill incident scenario would the entire Northern High Plains Aquifer system be adversely affected.

 

[K1052]

The reason he tossed it to the IG was, imo, nothing more than a delay tactic. All of the issues that have been brought up, including the main one which was a "conflict of interest", have been addressed.

There never was a conflict of interest because the only time that Cardno and Transcanada have ever worked together was because the Federal Government chose Cardno and by law the company applying for the permit must pay for the impact study. While Transcanada paid the bills Cardno worked for the Federal Government.

The Sand Hills route was also addressed in the report. I am not sure how the law works with states being able to deny the project for whatever reasons but if they can than Nebraska should have been the one to shoot the route down.

BTW, the report concluded that rerouting the pipeline would increase the environmental impact and potential harm.

Clearly the State of Nebraska did not agree that the Sand Hills issue was sufficiently resolved by the federal EIS. It would have been pretty likely that the state AG and private parties would have filed suit to prevent the pipeline from being built as currently routed.

As far as government officials and industry colluding to advance a project....that obviously has never happened.

 

[K1052]

Please see the above impact study on the aquifer done by Obama's State Department.

If we are to allow NIMBY and not actual science to determine our future infrastructure projects we will never achieve the goal of increasing use of "green power" and decreased use of existing dirty fuel. We also can't build new train lines, new roads and highways, new anything basically because there is always some sort of NIMBY.

Direct quote from Obama's State Departments FEIS:

In no spill incident scenario would the entire Northern High Plains Aquifer system be adversely affected.

So Obama should be allowed to override the objections of a state's Governor and Legislature for a project (that as currently proposed) is strongly opposed by their electorate?

Without State approval the DOS would get it's pants sued off for approving the pipeline.

 

[Jhhnn]

Clearly the State of Nebraska did not agree that the Sand Hills issue was sufficiently resolved by the federal EIS. It would have been pretty likely that the state AG and private parties would have filed suit to prevent the pipeline from being built as currently routed.

As far as government officials and industry colluding to advance a project....that obviously has never happened.

So Obama should be allowed to override the objections of a state's Governor and Legislature for a project (that as currently proposed) is strongly opposed by their electorate?

Without State approval the DOS would get it's pants sued off for approving the pipeline.

There you go- letting the super heated air out of a perfectly good anti-Obama rant balloon.

If Obama had approved the project, the same voices now in condemnation would have been raving about Nebraska's States' Rights...

Because, no matter what, it's all Obama's fault. Everything.

 

[monovillage]

Because, no matter what, nothing is Obama's fault, ever. Amirite?
Even when he cowardly delays his denial or approval on an issue until after an election and then blames someone, anyone else when they actually force him to do his job.

 

[Darwin333]

Clearly the State of Nebraska did not agree that the Sand Hills issue was sufficiently resolved by the federal EIS. It would have been pretty likely that the state AG and private parties would have filed suit to prevent the pipeline from being built as currently routed.

Sadly you are correct. That is why we will never have serious renewable energy in this country too.

As far as government officials and industry colluding to advance a project....that obviously has never happened.

Except for the claims that were made don't hold water. If you have evidence of collusion then please present it, thus far the best they have is a conflict of interest issue that isn't an issue at all.

 

[Jhhnn]

Because, no matter what, nothing is Obama's fault, ever. Amirite?
Even when he cowardly delays his denial or approval on an issue until after an election and then blames someone, anyone else when they actually force him to do his job.

Lameness. Obama needs for the states involved to be onboard, and Nebraska isn't, at least not yet. In forcing his hand, Repubs have probably delayed the pipeline rather than advancing its construction.

Which leads us to the obvious question- do they really want the pipeline, or do they just want an "issue", one contrived out of thin air?

When we look past their concern trolling about jobs, we find that their original bill demanded cutting the federal workforce by 10%, ~2M jobs, as part of the bargain... anybody who can't recognize the contradiction in that is a fool.

 

[K1052]

Sadly you are correct. That is why we will never have serious renewable energy in this country too.



Except for the claims that were made don't hold water. If you have evidence of collusion then please present it, thus far the best they have is a conflict of interest issue that isn't an issue at all.

Nebraska's problems with the pipeline could have been largely alleviated by TransCanada routing along existing lines or at a minimum including that alternative in the EIS so the whole process doesn't start over. I think they severely underestimated the ability of local opposition to mobilize in the state politically across party lines. Trying to make and end run around that buy using Congress who also had interest in the issue with respect to the election was also clearly not a good choice.

I don't have any problem with Obama letting the IG take a look at the process. That is his prerogative under the law. The EPA also has issues with the EIS that was done so this would have also given more time to address those.

 

[michal1980]

Whatever his reasons, he's done that all along. It's clear that he has the power & the right to do so as Prez.

Political gain? I think you're misidentifying who started this fracas with political gain in mind- Republicans.

When you got nothin' but failure under your belt, you need to make up something, anything, to try to drag down the opposition.

When your own policy creates nearly 20M un & under employed Americans, rave about a few 1000 pipeline jobs as if they'll save the economy from your own mismanagement.

When your own Neocon ambitions of world dominance by military means creates failure in Iraq & Afghanistan, never admit you were wrong.

When going to war & cutting top tier taxes simultaneously creates massive budget deficits, demand cuts, cuts, cuts! in the benefits afforded to the weakest members of society.

When the credit bubble collapse of the Ownership Society demands bank bailouts & reform, socialize the losses, privatize the profits, thwart reform so as to maintain socialism for the Rich. Demand more tax cuts for the mythical Job Creators, as if they were actually creating jobs in this country, as if a lack of capital were holding them back.

Given the acrobatic exploits of the Repub leadership, it's remarkable that their fanbois can keep their noses firmly embedded in the buttcracks of that leadership. But they do- they hold on for dear life, afraid they'll be set adrift otherwise, afraid to even open their eyes lest they become disoriented & dizzy...

How many strawmen can you throw out.

Would this pipeline create jobs?

Yes or No?

Answer is clearly Yes.

Obama decided tree hugging is more important then people being put to work. Obama like all liberals likes having people on goverment support. Himself saying that 'unemployement - creates more jobs'. Why? Because if people are making money indepedant of goverment he has less power.

Obama would rather have solydra blow 500,000,000 in tax payer funds, then have someone else build a project and create jobs.

 

[Jhhnn]

How many strawmen can you throw out.

Would this pipeline create jobs?

Yes or No?

Answer is clearly Yes.

Obama decided tree hugging is more important then people being put to work. Obama like all liberals likes having people on goverment support. Himself saying that 'unemployement - creates more jobs'. Why? Because if people are making money indepedant of goverment he has less power.

Obama would rather have solydra blow 500,000,000 in tax payer funds, then have someone else build a project and create jobs.

Desperate often? Apparently so.

Your introduction of Solyndra & the obvious conspiracy theory wrt liberals & govt are dead giveaways.

This is about you & your fellow travelers, so read up-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

 

[Darwin333]

Nebraska's problems with the pipeline could have been largely alleviated by TransCanada routing along existing lines or at a minimum including that alternative in the EIS so the whole process doesn't start over. I think they severely underestimated the ability of local opposition to mobilize in the state politically across party lines. Trying to make and end run around that buy using Congress who also had interest in the issue with respect to the election was also clearly not a good choice.

I don't have any problem with Obama letting the IG take a look at the process. That is his prerogative under the law. The EPA also has issues with the EIS that was done so this would have also given more time to address those.

There are multiple alternatives in the FEIS including running it along existing pipelines. The State Department found that the original route was the best one and any of the alternatives would potentially cause more environmental harm. Its all in there.

Basically every argument that has been put forth so far I have shot down with Obama's (not Bush's) own administrations findings so now yall are switching to "states rights".

 

[Darwin333]

How many strawmen can you throw out.

Would this pipeline create jobs?

Yes or No?

Answer is clearly Yes.

Obama decided tree hugging is more important then people being put to work. Obama like all liberals likes having people on goverment support. Himself saying that 'unemployement - creates more jobs'. Why? Because if people are making money indepedant of goverment he has less power.

Obama would rather have solydra blow 500,000,000 in tax payer funds, then have someone else build a project and create jobs.

I disagree. This wasn't about the .gov having less power or the fact that Obama is a treehugger or anything like that. It was about not pissing his base, especially one that campaigns pretty heavily for him, off right before the election.

 

[monovillage]

Jhhnn, your ass got handed to you in this debate/discussion. No matter what the facts are you are going to defend Obama on this, no big deal, but stop pretending this was any kind of a win for the President.

 

[dmcowen674]

Jhhnn, your ass got handed to you in this debate/discussion. No matter what the facts are you are going to defend Obama on this, no big deal, but stop pretending this was any kind of a win for the President.

The only ones that got their asses handed to them is Oil supporting Republicans such as yourself.

I'm sure you'll get your pipeline eventually, just not now under the Messiah.

 

[Jhhnn]

Jhhnn, your ass got handed to you in this debate/discussion. No matter what the facts are you are going to defend Obama on this, no big deal, but stop pretending this was any kind of a win for the President.

Only in your delusional dreams.

Been taking lessons from Spidey, or what?

 

[K1052]

There are multiple alternatives in the FEIS including running it along existing pipelines. The State Department found that the original route was the best one and any of the alternatives would potentially cause more environmental harm. Its all in there.

Basically every argument that has been put forth so far I have shot down with Obama's (not Bush's) own administrations findings so now yall are switching to "states rights".

It was included as a possible alternative but not studied. If it was then getting this whole thing back on track would be as simple as saying they want to use the alternative now then it could be signed off on in short order since it would have state support.

TransCanada assumed they could buy off the locals/state to make a cheaper routing work. When that failed industry pressed a Congress hungry for issues to feed to the presidential race to insert it into the payroll tax legislation.

 

[KlokWyze]

Jhhnn, your ass got handed to you in this debate/discussion. No matter what the facts are you are going to defend Obama on this, no big deal, but stop pretending this was any kind of a win for the President.

:hmm: What?

Funny that it likely really was not a "win" for the president. It seems like the only choice he could have made and it will make him look bad regardless if it was the "correct" one. That's the tactic of the right. Politics at the expense of the country. Unfortunately they have a very large, very loyal, base of idiots that will vote for anyone with an 'R' next to their name.... precisely because of these non-issue, completely emotional-based attacks. Turn the Glenn Beck back on bro. :thumbsup: