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Obama Makes Another Threat
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K1052
Elite Member
Guts enough to fight the US/NATO but not enough to clean up the tribal areas and kick out the people putting your country in this position in the first place.
Makes sense....
The US does not want to "bring it" it Pakistan. Not because we can't, but because it furthers no goal.
The Green Bean
Diamond Member
Woofmeister
Golden Member
"Waived", "lifted". What's the difference? We've given and given to Pakistan and received nothing in return.
Where's our money bitches?
The Green Bean
Diamond Member
You got our support for the WOT which seems all but over. Without our supply routes your $11bn will look like seashells.
The Green Bean
Diamond Member
Now that's just brainwashed propaganda. Our government today is more secular than it has ever been since 1971.
As I stated in every single one of your threads. The Pakistani government has ZERO presence in these tribal areas, you cannot claim sovereignty over areas for which you exert no state control.
Stating otherwise just lends credence to the argument that your government supports the Taliban/AQ in that region.
So pick your poison, either way, we're going to do what needs to be done.
Stating otherwise just lends credence to the argument that your government supports the Taliban/AQ in that region.
So pick your poison, either way, we're going to do what needs to be done.
The Green Bean
Diamond Member
More brainwashed propaganda from your media?
The Green Bean
Diamond Member
We do have presence. It's just that your government wants you to believe you don't. It's the same government that made you believe Saddam had WMDs. So take your pick; you can listen to your government sponsored propaganda or know the truth.
The Green Bean
Diamond Member
India can not destroy us. Their military tech is currently behind ours. That includes missile systems and air power. India has vowed not to use nukes unless attacked first while we have not. India can not therefore afford to escalate any war that it may get to a point where nuclear war destroys us both.
But yes it seems quite possible that we get attacked from both sides. India has recently stopped our water supply violating the Indus Water Treaty.
You have the same pressense you have had in those areas since the Afghan/Soviet war. A token presence that doesn't really do anything since you use those same people to fight a proxy war with India since Pakistan doesn't have the balls to do it on its own.
Sorry, but as much as I and I am sure many Americans, Canadians, and other forces operating in Afghanistan would wish that you guys could stay out of it, your inability to deal with your own shit leads to losses on our side. You have been unable to govern the extremist in your country since its inception, I doubt it will happen now.
Lemon law
Lifer
Well I have a few comments because this is precisely the type situations that I have been warning about all these years.
1. Unless a state of war exists between the US&Nato and Pakistan, Pakistan has every right to defend its air space. And Pakistan has every right to defend its airspace, and in so doing so has every right to shoot at the trespasser, and the trespasser commits an act of war if they even fire back in self defense.
2. Dismiss it if you will, I think THG has done a rather convincing job of demonstrating all of Pakistan is united against these incursions.
3. Its is nice to see, from the Indian link provided, that India realizes putting their troops on the ground in Afghanistan would be incredibly destabilizing. And hence will resist Nato pressures to do so.
4. Buried in all this, are plans for Zardari to travel to the UK, and talk to their leadership. Which sadly, will be about as effective as cussing out GWB's dog Barney. Everyone knows where stupidity central is, and its in a big white house in Washington DC.
5. Just as GWB put Gen. Petaeus in overall charge of Afghanistan and Iraq, he basically cuts all his options with these somewhat ineffectual cross border incursions. As GWB goes for broke with less than 125 days left in his lame duck Presidency, he worse yet, is really limiting the options of our next President who will hopefully be able to come up with more effective strategies that make POSITIVE progress in Afghanistan for a damn change.
6. There is now enough time left before the UN renewal of approval for the Nato presence in Afghanistan comes up for review for many other nations to come up with alternative proposals. We could find that Iran, Russia, and China, and certain other mid-east nations could offer up their own plans to provide enough Islamic troops. And Nato will end up being told to go home mission not accomplished.
7. And as I warned quite a while back, this is really a dangerous time for Nato to get aggressive, with only 72,000 troops, its far too small of a force to talk about expanded roles. To get militarily realistic even while dismissing the politically stupid aspects, its going to take on the order of 600,000 troops to be marginally effective in trying to police the tribal areas of Pakistan.
1. Unless a state of war exists between the US&Nato and Pakistan, Pakistan has every right to defend its air space. And Pakistan has every right to defend its airspace, and in so doing so has every right to shoot at the trespasser, and the trespasser commits an act of war if they even fire back in self defense.
2. Dismiss it if you will, I think THG has done a rather convincing job of demonstrating all of Pakistan is united against these incursions.
3. Its is nice to see, from the Indian link provided, that India realizes putting their troops on the ground in Afghanistan would be incredibly destabilizing. And hence will resist Nato pressures to do so.
4. Buried in all this, are plans for Zardari to travel to the UK, and talk to their leadership. Which sadly, will be about as effective as cussing out GWB's dog Barney. Everyone knows where stupidity central is, and its in a big white house in Washington DC.
5. Just as GWB put Gen. Petaeus in overall charge of Afghanistan and Iraq, he basically cuts all his options with these somewhat ineffectual cross border incursions. As GWB goes for broke with less than 125 days left in his lame duck Presidency, he worse yet, is really limiting the options of our next President who will hopefully be able to come up with more effective strategies that make POSITIVE progress in Afghanistan for a damn change.
6. There is now enough time left before the UN renewal of approval for the Nato presence in Afghanistan comes up for review for many other nations to come up with alternative proposals. We could find that Iran, Russia, and China, and certain other mid-east nations could offer up their own plans to provide enough Islamic troops. And Nato will end up being told to go home mission not accomplished.
7. And as I warned quite a while back, this is really a dangerous time for Nato to get aggressive, with only 72,000 troops, its far too small of a force to talk about expanded roles. To get militarily realistic even while dismissing the politically stupid aspects, its going to take on the order of 600,000 troops to be marginally effective in trying to police the tribal areas of Pakistan.
*yawn* Your country couldnt stop a real attack from us. But that isnt the point here, we arent trying to fight Pakistan.
It seems to me that YOU are the brainwashed one here. If you dont think for 1 minute that our CIA and Armed Forces gives your intelligence community a heads up before we fire hellfires, or cross the border with Rangers/Delta Force/Etc you are a joke. There is alot of backdoor politics that none of us will ever see.
Your leaders dont want to be embarassed, so they show photos of blown up civilians that could be from god knows where after every strike. Then they put on a whole faux outrage bit, but never do anything about it. Because they knew it was going to happen, and maybe even gave the blessing or intelligence that we needed to know a high value target was in a certain area.
I know this might be too much information for you to handle, since you swallow everything your government gives you, but there it is.
It seems to me that YOU are the brainwashed one here. If you dont think for 1 minute that our CIA and Armed Forces gives your intelligence community a heads up before we fire hellfires, or cross the border with Rangers/Delta Force/Etc you are a joke. There is alot of backdoor politics that none of us will ever see.
Your leaders dont want to be embarassed, so they show photos of blown up civilians that could be from god knows where after every strike. Then they put on a whole faux outrage bit, but never do anything about it. Because they knew it was going to happen, and maybe even gave the blessing or intelligence that we needed to know a high value target was in a certain area.
I know this might be too much information for you to handle, since you swallow everything your government gives you, but there it is.
Lemon law
Lifer
Anyone who thinks the Pakistani army has ZERO presence in the tribal areas of Pakistan did not read today's links or the history provided. The fact is that the Pakistani army has lost more troops than Nato in terms of fighting Al-Quida in the tribal areas. But it will make the Pakistani army far more popular in the tribal areas as everyone unites against ANY Nato presence there. And its already happening as all the tribal leaders start to meet.
JeffreyLebowski
Lifer
The key here is if Pakistan all of a sudden disappeared off the face of the map, the world would take some time to notice.
You ramble on like your jealous of the US more than you are angry at it for some real reason.
You have a very limited idea of the history of these tribal areas, the US, the ICS and all of it tied to India. Pakistan has been doing what its done since the cold era, playing both sides and hoping not to get burned.
Just a heads up, the armies moving into the tribal areas from time to time is nothing new and has been happening since 1980 as a way of "we are still in charge". Throughout the years, the routine incursions into tribal areas has been spun to satisfy whatever political crisis is current, but it is still the same thing, the army reasserting power.
Lemon law
Lifer
K1052, if you read the link provided, the one particular helicopter repelled happen to run into both a Pakistani army border post and it got shot at. And retreated.
That does not mean that other helicopters on other missions or higher flying jets did get through because they were luckier or flew much higher.
Its still a very dangerous game to play.
When it comes to air power, its somewhat overwhelming advantage Nato, but do expect collateral damage to skyrocket as intel gets dated.
Nato is skating on very thin ice at the UN and these are acts that is likely to have far ranging negative consequences.
That does not mean that other helicopters on other missions or higher flying jets did get through because they were luckier or flew much higher.
Its still a very dangerous game to play.
When it comes to air power, its somewhat overwhelming advantage Nato, but do expect collateral damage to skyrocket as intel gets dated.
Nato is skating on very thin ice at the UN and these are acts that is likely to have far ranging negative consequences.
K1052
Elite Member
As I stated before, I'm sure US forces doing this have ROEs that prohibit them from getting into it with the Pakistani military. For their part the Pakistani military doesn't seem real gung ho about actually doing anything probably with orders from above.
I suspect the beloved patriot government is relatively content to let the US take the heat in ferreting out these people rather than doing it themselves while paying sovereignty concerns lip service.
Lemon law
Lifer
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You may be right about both the US and Pakistan and all the rules of engagements.
The people you should be worried about are the populations of the Tribal areas who have no Roe's at all. There are not very many Taliban and Al-Quida in all of Afghanistan and Pakistan. But if the tribal leaders join in and decide to create as much grief as possible in Afghanistan, its one tactic they may use. To the tribal leaders, the international borders involved are just an imaginary concept they have no reason to respect. And when the various Tribal leaders do meet, you can bet they will be including those in Afghanistan and the Stans to the North.
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